WWDC 2023: What to expect (READ FOR UPDATE)

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

One of my favourite ever comedy sketches that one

 

Along with this all time classic from when Microsoft added speech-to-text in Vista.

 

 

[Obioban]

Somehow I missed until now that there is going to be a VisionOS version of Final Cut Pro at launch. I'm interested to see what Apple thinks a Vision OS specific pro app looks like.

[saltycaramel]

8 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

What a crazy idea to show someone actually using the device instead of - here it comes - people sitting on a couch doing literally nothing. 

 

This is definitely a strong contender among @saltycaramel's posts for "worst take of 2023".

 

The worst take of 2023 is you not understanding the comfy lady on the couch is the single most important image for the first contact of the public with this new device, just like Steve Jobs introducing the first iPad sitting in a comfy armchair. Making personal computing more personal, intimate, part of one's daily life, not intimidating. That's the implied message.

[saltycaramel]

7 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

I don't want to spoil the surprise, but we have some strong evidence that it will look just like Final Cut Pro on a virtual screen floating somewhere in the room.

You will probably want to use mouse and keyboard as input device.

 

Except Final Cut Pro for iPad already exists, doesn't necessarily require kb&m and is not a mere 1:1 lookalike of Final Cut Pro for macOS.

 

https://www.xda-developers.com/final-cut-pro-for-ipad-review/

 

That's the more likely base for the visionOS version.

[hishnash]

23 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

That's the more likely base for the visionOS version.

For sure the visionsOS version will be based on this, The main difference will be the hand gestures that let you use the jog wheel and the option to pull out large preview windows.  

[IkeaGnome]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

The worst take of 2023 is you not understanding the comfy lady on the couch is the single most important image for the first contact of the public with this new device, just like Steve Jobs introducing the first iPad sitting in a comfy armchair. Making personal computing more personal, intimate, part of one's daily life, not intimidating. That's the implied message.

Do we need to point out that they showed Steve actually using the iPad, scrolling through apps and interacting with them? Not just a screen that very well could have been CGI and no where near what it'll launch as with no interaction?

 

Edit: Kept watching, here's him using the keyboard. Not just the keyboard sitting there implied it'll be used at some point.

Spoiler

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

15 hours ago, actually-light said:

That's absolutely going to be true in the future. There's absolutely no reason why someone would pick an ultrabook over a mature version of this technology.

Why the fuck would I want to put on a fucking ski mask and stop seeing other people and use my computer when I can not wear a stupid ski mask and see other people? And maybe I want to sometimes show a fucking powerpoint presentation to or watch a video with other people? And what about being able to stuff a thin notebook in my bag versus and oddly shaped display.

 

And don't come up with a fantastical vision of a mature product, which is as thin as my spectacle and has the power of two supercomputers, because if so, take a futuristic laptop as well, which has a rollable screen and can fit in my product smfh.

 

[Donut417]

2 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

And what about being able to stuff a thin notebook in my bag versus and oddly shaped display.

Thats not even the best part. A current gen MacBook Air gets all day battery life, Apple claims 18 hours. This headset gets what 2 hours? This is a device that would only be used in the comfort of ones home. Plus the MacBook Air, or even a Pro is going to be cheaper and probably more usefully. 

 

 

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, hishnash said:

For sure the visionsOS version will be based on this, The main difference will be the hand gestures that let you use the jog wheel and the option to pull out large preview windows.  

I don't know if first version of the App for Vision will but I suspect it will allow pulling many UI elements out to their own windows that can be arranged. What you can do with a headset display versus a monitor display for this kind of application can be very different, what I don't now is if you want to and it would be that user friendly depending on what you pull out. Like having the timeline too far out of view could be a problem if you do that etc

[hishnash]

4 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Do we need to point out that they showed Steve actually using the iPad, scrolling through apps and interacting with them? Not just a screen that very well could have been CGI and no where near what it'll launch as with no interaction?

This was the release video targeted at consumers who were buying the device. Not developers making apps for the device. 

Appel will have a user focused event when they are ready to ship that will be 1 to 2 hours full of showing of the device in use in a range of thier apps the third party apps that they want to show off differnt use cases. 
 

The WWDC preview of the device is all about showing the generic capabilities of the HW and SW platform so devs can think about what they are going to build there not about how mail works or any other individual apple app.  The video was all about showing differnt stations and form factors for apps to inspired us devs to think about how our IP would best be presented to uses in the headset. 

Showing that there is a keyboard on a table and saying in the state of the union that it support BT keyboard and mice is all we need as developers to say "cool so its ok if we build an app that needs heavy text entry users can use a keyboard sweet.."  we do not need to see someone using a keyboard since it turns out us devs we tend to know what using a keyboard is like! yer who would have thought someone who just writes text into a plain text might understand that when you press a key it appears in a TextField or TextEdtor and updates the corresponding binding to the provided string ... 

[hishnash]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Like having the timeline too far out of view could be a problem if you do that etc

Yer I could see detaching the timeline and placing it below at an angel almost flat on the table to be nice an powerful I believe windows don not need to be vertical. 

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, hishnash said:

This was the release video targeted at consumers who were buying the device. Not developers making apps for the device. 

Appel will have a user focused event when they are ready to ship that will be 1 to 2 hours full of showing of the device in use in a range of thier apps the third party apps that they want to show off differnt use cases. 
 

The WWDC preview of the device is all about showing the generic capabilities of the HW and SW platform so devs can think about what they are going to build there not about how mail works or any other individual apple app.  The video was all about showing differnt stations and form factors for apps to inspired us devs to think about how our IP would best be presented to uses in the headset. 

Well the problem here is if it's supposed to be a consumer device why was it announced in this way at this conference unlike other headline new Apple products?

 

Was the iPhone first announced at WWDC? Was the iPad? Was the Apple Watch? etc etc

 

First introductions count. i.e. Why is the Vision Pro second class citizen to all the products before it?

 

Basically WWDC doesn't have to be first, the order doesn't have to be in this way. You can announce the product at an Apple Special Event and then do the developer stuff at WWDC after. And if, IF, this is "Just a Mac on your head, all the Apps you know and love just work" then there is literally zero reason to do it this way, since you have so many things that would already work to show off.

[IkeaGnome]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

This was the release video targeted at consumers who were buying the device. Not developers making apps for the device. 

Appel will have a user focused event when they are ready to ship that will be 1 to 2 hours full of showing of the device in use in a range of thier apps the third party apps that they want to show off differnt use cases. 
 

The WWDC preview of the device is all about showing the generic capabilities of the HW and SW platform so devs can think about what they are going to build there not about how mail works or any other individual apple app.  The video was all about showing differnt stations and form factors for apps to inspired us devs to think about how our IP would best be presented to uses in the headset. 

Showing that there is a keyboard on a table and saying in the state of the union that it support BT keyboard and mice is all we need as developers to say "cool so its ok if we build an app that needs heavy text entry users can use a keyboard sweet.."  we do not need to see someone using a keyboard since it turns out us devs we tend to know what using a keyboard is like! yer who would have thought someone who just writes text into a plain text might understand that when you press a key it appears in a TextField or TextEdtor and updates the corresponding binding to the provided string ... 

Seems you responded to me and moved the goal posts without reading the context of what exactly I responded to. 

Try again. 

Steve Jobs was in a comfy arm chair. Lady was in a comfy arm chair.  Lady didn’t interact with Vision anywhere near how Steve Jobs did. Lady for one, didn’t type or interact with any of the screens. Steve Jobs did. 

7 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

not understanding the comfy lady on the couch is the single most important image for the first contact of the public with this new device, just like Steve Jobs introducing the first iPad sitting in a comfy armchair.

 

[saltycaramel]

 

Half of those are me rewatching it but looks like there’s some interest in this weird new device. 

 

Every headset manufactured will be sold and backordered for a long time. At this stage they can’t pump out more than 70-100k acceptable units per month probably. 

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

Oh, boy. The wall of delusion has turned into toxic exlcusivism. Why is the following concept for some people so hard to grasp and they think you can do only one or the other?

 

People can sit on a couch and simultaneously use the Vision headset!

 

Boom, mind blown.

 

 

This drama is so uninteresting, preposterous and inconsequential I’m gonna cry in a corner out of boredom if I hear more of it. 

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well the problem here is if it's supposed to be a consumer device why was it announced in this way at this conference unlike other headline new Apple products?

 

So that devs can build apps for it.  

 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Was the iPhone first announced at WWDC? Was the iPad? Was the Apple Watch? etc etc

 

When the iPhone shipped there was no ability to for devs to build apps, that came later.  Apple want devs to have apps on the platform day one rather than what happened with the iPhone were apps came 6 months later. 

Apple Watch was also pre-announced in September 2014 and shipped early 2015 (so about 4 months notice).

Same append with the appleTV as well.  

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

First introductions count. i.e. Why is the Vision Pro second class citizen to all the products before it?

 

It's not at all, the pattern of pre-announcing so that devs can get a head of the ability to ship apps is now standard practice. 

 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

You can announce the product at an Apple Special Event and then do the developer stuff at WWDC after

You can but then it ships to users without anything but the system apps?  

 

2 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Lady for one, didn’t type or interact with any of the screens. Steve Jobs did. 

But steam was showing of using it not showing of the range of HW/SW features to attract developers his goal was to get people to pull out a credit card that week.   Apples goal right now is for devs to see the platform and thing about what they could make fo fit, a very different audience. 

[saltycaramel]

11 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

We don't know why they didn't show anyone using the device, but  their reasons certainly weren't "not interesting" or "not enough time".

 

 

The Powers That Be didn’t want us to know this product is an unfinished undercooked usability clusterf*ck that is in no way actually better than what we already have, that’s why. I can’t think of any other reason.

 

Come 6-9 months their smokescreen of lies will fall apart.

 

The clock is ticking for little Timmy, so eager to have his “iPhone moment”. Like Icarus he flew too close to the Sun, his wings are melting as we speak, didn’t even have the cojones to be caught wearing this hopeless tech concept of an headset.

[LAwLz]

Damn, this product has really engaged at least two users on this forum.

Personally, I see the potential but also some issues. I think it would be wise to not make any grand predictions about it and just wait to see how things play out.

 

I've made some big predictions about how Apple products would fail in the past and turned out to be spectacularly wrong. What I learned from that was that it's very easy to find faults and potential issues with a product and then blow those out of proportion, or to get stuck on the idea that those issues won't be solved in future iterations. I feel like the price is one of those things. I doubt this will stay 3500 dollars forever, so it's important to not classify the product as DOA right away because of the price. Gen 2, 3 or 4 might be much more reasonably priced and capable.

 

But on the other hand, I've seen product categories promise the world and then end up flopping hard. Oculus feels like a very apt example because it's in the same category. Even with Meta behind it I haven't really seen any compelling use case except play a very specific type of game like Beat Saber, and maybe some industrial application. It often feels like a solution looking for a problem, and comes with its own share of problems (like a lack of haptic feedback).

 

 

It would be interesting to go back to this thread in let's say 5 years time and see what predictions were right/wrong, what features were overhyped, and what fears were unfounded.

[saltycaramel]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Gen 2, 3 or 4 might be much more reasonably priced

 

Doubt the Gen 2 or 3 of the Vision Pro will be significantly cheaper.

 

They’ll get you more (5000-6000ppi displays instead of 3400ppi, beefier chips at the bleeding edge of silicon fabbing, better cameras, improved lenses, etc.) for the same price, likely.

 

The Vision non-Pro will be cheaper. Unfortunately, as per Gurman’s latest newsletter, it is currently expected for late 2025.

[actually-light]

22 hours ago, leadeater said:

That's not showing them being used, that is showing the application running and doing nothing with it. I don't think you are grasping the point.

 

It sounds like what you actually want is to use the device yourself, since apparently independent journalists all saying "it works really well" isn't enough. I don't really see why you've bothered to continue to engage here, seeing as how it's obviously impossible for anyone to sufficiently demonstrate the device online to your standards.

 

21 hours ago, DerKleine said:

Which is both not going to happen any time soon (for numerous reasons) and wearing such a headset in everyday life isn't going to become socially acceptable any time soon.

Sure, and this device is the very definition of first-gen technology. 

 

21 hours ago, DerKleine said:

So no, "there are exercises that exist that people do with their HMDs" does not imply "all exercise is great with an HMD".

What exercises won't work with an HMD? People already do hard physical labor in helmets weighing multiple pounds, and while a helmet might be somewhat better spread, I don't see how that matters unless you're doing neck exercises.

 

21 hours ago, DerKleine said:

You're going to be shovelling food millimetres below the headset and have a chance of bonking whatever beverage container you're drinking from into the bottom of it, so yeah, I think I'd rather deal with occasionally having to touch a touchscreen with the knuckle of an otherwise greasy finger.

23 hours ago, actually-light said:

I can already comfortably drink with a Quest 2 on, and I can't even see properly in the thing. The Vision Pro also leaves space over your nose, whereas the Quest completely covers it so it should be even less of an issue.

 

21 hours ago, DerKleine said:

Wow, you found the one out of 3 (4?) orientations in which the headset kind of makes more sense. Too bad I often don't want to lie on my back, and having 500g pressing down on my face when I want to lie down doesn't sound all that enticing. Also, even when you're lying on your back, there's still a head strap going around the back of your head. It might not be as much of an issue with the APV since it's just fabric at the back, but it's still something.

I can pretty comfortably lie down with the Quest 2. I don't see why you'd bother with any other positions, frankly.

 

21 hours ago, DerKleine said:

Another case of ignoring that other people might exist and wearing stuff might not always be the most comfortable.

23 hours ago, actually-light said:

Yes, it's obviously not ideal if you want to watch something with another person. I'd bet that the vast majority of tablet use is personal, though.

 

21 hours ago, DerKleine said:

That still means you'll have to constantly go through the setup process of starting your external computing device and connecting it to the headset. And with monitor arms, the amount of desk space actually removed by a display doesn't even have to be that high.

23 hours ago, actually-light said:

How many people do you think actually use monitor arms instead of the included stands? And even if you do, you still can't fit a display larger than your physical space. I physically cannot fit a 32" display in my setup.

 

10 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

What a crazy idea to show someone actually using the device instead of - here it comes - people sitting on a couch doing literally nothing. 

People sitting on a couch watching a movie is an incredibly compelling use case for this device. Do you actually not understand what regular people do with tech?

 

8 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Why the fuck would I want to put on a fucking ski mask and stop seeing other people and use my computer when I can not wear a stupid ski mask and see other people? And maybe I want to sometimes show a fucking powerpoint presentation to or watch a video with other people? And what about being able to stuff a thin notebook in my bag versus and oddly shaped display.

 

And don't come up with a fantastical vision of a mature product, which is as thin as my spectacle and has the power of two supercomputers, because if so, take a futuristic laptop as well, which has a rollable screen and can fit in my product smfh.

"But what about all these edge cases that don't apply to the vast majority of use cases"
 

If I want to show someone a PowerPoint, I'll send them an invite to a shared workspace and they can use their own damn headset. If they don't have one, we can use their laptop instead.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

When the iPhone shipped there was no ability to for devs to build apps, that came later.  Apple want devs to have apps on the platform day one rather than what happened with the iPhone were apps came 6 months later. 

That didn't Apply to the iPad or the Apple Watch though did it?

 

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

So that devs can build apps for it.  

Well yes and they still could. Having a consumer announcement first then a dev doesn't change this. It's all just timings and time frames etc

 

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

It's not at all, the pattern of pre-announcing so that devs can get a head of the ability to ship apps is now standard practice. 

Is it. Lets pick the Apple Watch and iPad. Where were those pre-announced? And was it official and by Apple and not just "known about" but the first actual Apple presentation seen for these were non WWDC events?

 

Everything I'm reading the first event where the Apple Watch was shown was the Apple Special Event September 2014. If this is wrong then please point me to where it was before then.

 

You say it's pattern yet there isn't actually anything showing this. This is the first time far as I can see so it's not a pattern, it's a first time situation. But again unless the historical record is wrong or hard to find I can't find it.

 

WWDC 2014, no Apple Watch anything I could find, but it's long so I could have missed it.

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, actually-light said:

It sounds like what you actually want is to use the device yourself, since apparently independent journalists all saying "it works really well" isn't enough. I don't really see why you've bothered to continue to engage here, seeing as how it's obviously impossible for anyone to sufficiently demonstrate the device online to your standards.

They got to use it in limited capacity with limited time with supervision and we did not get to see any of this. And you're asking why I don't think this is compelling? How would you treat a review of the latest Lenovo Ultra Book and the reviewer said "It's the best device ever, its so amazing and nothing on the market comes close to it", but you get to see no footage or empirical data or anything about it? Do you just believe this "review" or should you be doubtful?

 

And yes I do want to use it but I don't have to use it to get better information about it.

 

It's not at all impossible. You do and show exactly what I have asked for and talked about, absolutely not less than which is how past Apple events have been for new devices.

 

Bold is there for an extremely, extremely relevant and extremely important reason. Apple's own history is my justification for asking what I have because they did it before and failed to do it this time, I am only holding their Keynote about a new device to their own standards. If the only justification is "this is WWDC" then that is their mistake for first showing it a WWDC.

 

What is impossible is using the WWDC event and comments from those that got to use it at the event to change my opinion. Talking about how great it is while devoid of any real demonstrations of it is just projecting and your own asperations which I simply don't have to share. People are going to be more willing to believe in it and others aren't, people are going to have different opinions, that is life.

 

I am allowed to think the Vision Pro is/will be the best device on the market while also expressing concerns over the usability of it and applications. Because those are my thoughts and opinions. I base mine on historic past knowns about similar devices and real practical problems with these devices that don't relate to better implementing the technology of them. And for how good it may or may not be it's going to be contenting with existing devices that offer highly acceptable user experience which may or may not be better than with the usage of the Vision Pro. New, exciting and different is not the same thing as better.

 

Edit:

I also don't think there is any real concern to be had by Apple if they have done a special event at the start of the year announcing the Vision Pro, WWDC months later and then following year availability. I highly doubt any company in that time frame is going to get anything to market as good as or better than the Vision Pro. The is no commercial competitive disadvantage to have done it this way and I don't think a 12 month time frame between public announcement and availability would have been a problem. Hell Apple could have done two Special Events that feature it and the second could have been filled with 3rd party Apps to bolster just how good it's going to be at availability. That may have been the plan this time around but I have my reasons for criticizing what was shown and I will stand by them until Apple does better.

[saltycaramel]

What if this is a once-in-15-years kind of platform introduction combined with the introduction of a weird new user experience model, and hence no comparison with previous events makes sense? 

 

Not everything in life can be categorized  within the boundaries of narrow labels and predictable assumptions.

 

Not everything can be inferred from track record and previous occurrences.

 

Some events are so rare and apart one can’t really torture data about them into becoming statistics. (people doing it with wars make me laugh, the reality is each war constitutes its own complex and unpredictable story)

 

Some events are just their own thing.

Sui generis is the latin expression.

 

Apple’s unveiling of visionOS and the first visionOS device could be a sui generis kind of affair. 

 

Be more elastic. 

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

What if this is a once-in-15-years kind of platform introduction combined with the introduction of a weird new user experience model, and hence no comparison with previous events makes sense? 

This is just bad reasoning justifying your own position on the matter that makes you feel better about it. How in any way is it a problem to do better demonstrations and exactly how would it be a problem to have done so?

 

11 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Be more elastic. 

How about you? I'm not being rigid in the way you think. Be more elastic and be more willing to show off your device Apple. Don't be so guarded and protective and afraid to show something of substance.

 

Be more elastic.

 

Your whole post is just meh, like really really meh. Nothing about how new or different in any way precludes it from having better demonstrations of usage, literally nothing.

 

"It's the best thing ever and will be revolutionary. Anyone who can't see this is wrong" <- Too rigid.

 

Be more elastic.

 

Anything can be twisted to make it how you want it to be. When you have an opinion not doing it is difficult, for me and you. Simple acknowledgement of differences in opinions and expectations is simply enough. Criticizing different opinions goes nowhere. If you do wish to change an opinion there are good ways to go about that, that is often through demonstration, good argument and evidence. Opinions can change just don't expect them to without going about it the right way. 

[saltycaramel]

16 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This is just bad reasoning

 

Just as bad reasoning as mentioning “random introduction of the tenth iteration of a product” events as a precedent. 

 

It is what it is.

And there’s a (corporate-devised, carefully planned) reason for it. (doubt it’s “The Powers That Be didn’t wanna show us it’s actually a usability nightmare”, they would be called out in 9 months, so what exactly is your point? You’ll know when it’s time.)

 

One has to wonder, if leaks are to be believed, how the canceled January 2023 and March/April 2023 stand-alone non-WWDC headset introduction events would have worked out to be. In the end I liked it better at WWDC, being able to hear the full developer story (in the SoTU and sessions) immediately.