EV’s may not charge in the cold.

[Namija]

Summary

 Electric Vehicles are struggling to charge in the cold. Not merely because of the vehicle struggling to charge in the cold, but because the chargers are not being tested enough to work within temperature spec. Some that seem to be most impacted are chargers newly installed by Electrify America co-developed with BTC. Not every charger is as affected, however. ABB and Tesla’s Supercharger seem to be working just fine. EVgo seems to work, however charging speed was affected at faster charge rates (presumably due to temperature). Chargepoint is also touch and go, but not yet confirmed the actual reason. 

 

Quotes

Quote

 Out Of Spec Reviews on YouTube has this to say in his reporting, “… The fact they are speccing brand new hardware and ripping out old units to solve problems, but introducing worse problems… this won’t even connect in cold weather.” (Around the 39 minute mark)  

 

My thoughts

 I thought this could be very, VERY applicable right now given how many people are traveling  and also given how many new EV owners there are as of this year. As a fellow midwesterner (US) who has seen lots of Teslas and Rivians lately, I thought I would post something in warning to them. These temperatures have not been nice lately and people are now probably needing to charge soon (if not already!)

 

Sources

 Out Of Spec Reviews: 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

Derp.  They probably forgot that while they’re attached to the ground which is more or less a constant 60f, the things are made of metal. Electric scars usually have battery heaters but the chargers may have problems. Something as  low tech as A cardboard refrigerator box might be enough to fix the problem, unless shrinking cables have pulled out of connectors.  Then they won’t work even after they warm up.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[Blue4130]

6 minutes ago, Namija said:

Summary

 Electric Vehicles are struggling to charge in the cold. Not merely because of the vehicle struggling to charge in the cold, but because the chargers are not being tested enough to work within temperature spec. Some that seem to be most impacted are chargers newly installed by Electrify America co-developed with BTC. Not every charger is as affected, however. ABB and Tesla’s Supercharger seem to be working just fine. EVgo seems to work, however charging speed was affected at faster charge rates (presumably due to temperature). Chargepoint is also touch and go, but not yet confirmed the actual reason. 

 

Quotes

 

My thoughts

 I thought this could be very, VERY applicable right now given how many people are traveling  and also given how many new EV owners there are as of this year. As a fellow midwesterner (US) who has seen lots of Teslas and Rivians lately, I thought I would post something in warning to them. These temperatures have not been nice lately and people are now probably needing to charge soon (if not already!)

 

Sources

 Out Of Spec Reviews: 

 

 

This is something that has always concerend me. Living in Saskatchewan where we get -40 quite frequently and where it is not uncommon to be below -20c for a month or more, electric vehicles always seemed sketchy. Cities are far enough apart with nothin in between, I would hate to run flat in the middle of Saskatoon and Regina.

[Levent]

8 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

They probably forgot

Doubtful. Pretty sure Electrify America thing started with the EPAs lawsuit against VW. VW just did the bare minimum to fulfill their obligations as fast as possible. Then again, it is hard to get be ready once in a century weather events like these.

[Bombastinator]

14 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

This is something that has always concerend me. Living in Saskatchewan where we get -40 quite frequently and where it is not uncommon to be below -20c for a month or more, electric vehicles always seemed sketchy. Cities are far enough apart with nothin in between, I would hate to run flat in the middle of Saskatoon and Regina.

It is an issue, but not an insurmountable one.   Mostly what you need is a garage with a 110v outlet.  An electric light bulb can often be turned into one.  If you can park it in there you’re OK. Also helps to have an electric car with a heat pump rather than heat tape.  They use vastly less electricity.  An electric car with tape battery heaters can lose 30% charge if left out overnight in the cold. With a heat pump it’s much lower.  If you put it in an unheated garage and plug it into something the outlet will power the battery heater so there’s full charge in the morning.  That full charge may be up to 50% less than it might have been on a warm day, but it’s usually enough to do what needs to be done (I’ve got a leaf in Minnesota with the short range battery pack.  At -15f I get about 90”mi” instead of 140.  If you leave it out all night in the cold without plugging it in it may not be happy in the morning.  If all you can do is plug it in though you should still be fine.  It could get expensive if you have to do that all winter though.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[jagdtigger]

46 minutes ago, Namija said:

but because the chargers are not being tested enough to work within temperature spec

Honestly if a charger doesnt work in cold the manufacturer efed up something really bad, there is literally nothing in them that could be affected by the cold....

[Kisai]

5 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Honestly if a charger doesnt work in cold the manufacturer efed up something really bad, there is literally nothing in them that could be affected by the cold....

Consider that this affects gasoline vehicles too, that's why "engine block heater"'s are a thing in Canada. If your car doesn't have one, and don't have a heated garage, you're pretty much throwing the dice if it will start.

 

I'd think that, at the bare minimum, if you own an EV, you'd have at least a heated garage, if not an insulated one. A carport (basically just a roof-overhang for the car to keep rain/snow off it) or just leaving the car in the driveway is likely to result in charging problems, no matter where you are in Canada from October to March.

 

[Blue4130]

Just now, Kisai said:

Consider that this affects gasoline vehicles too, that's why "engine block heater"'s are a thing in Canada. If your car doesn't have one, and don't have a heated garage, you're pretty much throwing the dice if it will start.

 

I'd think that, at the bare minimum, if you own an EV, you'd have at least a heated garage, if not an insulated one. A carport (basically just a roof-overhang for the car to keep rain/snow off it) or just leaving the car in the driveway is likely to result in charging problems, no matter where you are in Canada from October to March.

 

I can't count the number of times that I forgot to plug my car in and woke up to a car that won't start.

[Bombastinator]

18 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Consider that this affects gasoline vehicles too, that's why "engine block heater"'s are a thing in Canada. If your car doesn't have one, and don't have a heated garage, you're pretty much throwing the dice if it will start.

 

I'd think that, at the bare minimum, if you own an EV, you'd have at least a heated garage, if not an insulated one. A carport (basically just a roof-overhang for the car to keep rain/snow off it) or just leaving the car in the driveway is likely to result in charging problems, no matter where you are in Canada from October to March.

 

They’re also a thing in the Midwest USA.  My rule was never buy a car without one.  For what it’s worth they’re always tape. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[jagdtigger]

18 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Consider that this affects gasoline vehicles too, that's why "engine block heater"'s are a thing in Canada.

Maybe but the cold doesnt effect the range unlike in case of an EV that has to run the heaters non-stop.... Besides this is off topic since what the OP is talking about are the charging stations.

[Bombastinator]

28 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Honestly if a charger doesnt work in cold the manufacturer efed up something really bad, there is literally nothing in them that could be affected by the cold....

That’s what Jaguar thought too.  Car was designed on an island with the most consistent tempature range and humidity level on earth.  Outside the U.K though the standing joke was “do you know a GOOD Jaguar mechanic?”

Got two words for you: “thermal expansion”. They’re what Ford changed when they bought the company before they sold it again.  Literally merely slightly longer wiring harnesses fixed almost everything.

[Bombastinator]

15 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Maybe but the cold doesnt effect the range unlike in case of an EV that has to run the heaters non-stop.... Besides this is off topic since what the OP is talking about are the charging stations.

First of all not actually true.  Gasoline has problems in the cold too even though it still works.  Also That’s not what changes the range.  At least very much.  The difference between “everything on” and “everything off” is like two “mi” on my car.  The actual batteries get less efficient.  They don’t hold as much power. Energy density goes down.  More than in gasoline, but gasoline does it too a little. If you live an hour out of town buy a hybrid.  If you don’t there’s no need for one.  Most of the anti electric car stuff was from car companies who only had gasoline cars and were so far behind that they were afraid that they wouldn’t be able to ever catch up.  They’ve even admitted they were lying. The complicated one is apartment buildings with no parking.  They’re gonna get hit hard.  If you can plug a car in every night even if it’s just a 110v you flat out win.  It’s cheaper, it’s faster, it’s easier.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[jagdtigger]

7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

First of all not actually true.  Gasoline has problems in the cold too even though it still works.

Maybe the old ones with carburetors and analog ignition, modern cars can adjust pretty easily. As for the heat issue even the old engines wont use the external cooling circuit if the coolant is not up-to temperature.

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Maybe the old ones with carburetors and analog ignition, modern cars can adjust pretty easily. As for the heat issue even the old engines wont use the external cooling circuit if the coolant is not up-to temperature.

Nope.  It’s actually the gasoline.  Been known for a century.  Look it up.  Cold causes shrinkage. For everything.  It isn’t as bad as with li-ion though.  The solution with that one seems to be more batteries.   I get along fine with 90mi in the winter. My garage is wired for 220 but I just haven’t bothered.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[jagdtigger]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Nope.  It’s actually the gasoline.  Been known for a century.  Look it up.

I think you are mixing up gasoline and diesel there....

 

20 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

That’s what Jaguar thought too.  Car was designed on an island with the most consistent tempature range and humidity level on earth.  Outside the U.K though the standing joke was “do you know a GOOD Jaguar mechanic?”

Got two words for you: “thermal expansion”. They’re what Ford changed when they bought the company before they sold it again.  Literally merely slightly longer wiring harnesses fixed almost everything.

In other words the manufacturer efed up at the designing stage....

[Bombastinator]

Re: 1

nope.  I grew up around diesel cars.  You’re maybe thinking of #1 and #2 fuel mixes.  My dad did put #2 in a car in February once in North Dakota and the fuel gelled on him on a -40f (or c. The two systems cross at -40) night.  That did suck. He had to leave the car in the garage with a space heater for four days to get the stuff to reliquify.  They don’t even sell #1 in a lot of places.
 

re: 2

yes and no.  They worked fine in the U.K. it was only when you brought them elsewhere that there were problems.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[jagdtigger]

19 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

 I grew up around diesel cars

When i said gasoline i meant petrol, that doesnt have issues with the cold.... (didnt mention diesel because i know that both the fuel and the engine doesnt like the cold)

[starsmine]

9 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

When i said gasoline i meant petrol, that doesnt have issues with the cold.... (didnt mention diesel because i know that both the fuel and the engine doesnt like the cold)

In the Dakotas (and many locations in the north), it gets cold enough summer gas will never start as he pointed out. 
We are very aware of the change from winter and summer gas mixes, and when the stations change over, winter is usually 10-15 cents cheaper however winter has more emissions and you get less gas mileage. 

Summer gas literally fails to vaporize in the cold. so those hard sub zero starts are even more hard, or impossible to do. 

Gas, (petrol) DOES have issues in the cold.

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

When i said gasoline i meant petrol, that doesnt have issues with the cold.... (didnt mention diesel because i know that both the fuel and the engine doesnt like the cold)

No it actually does.  They’re just not as bad as diesel or li-ion. Lead acid also has problems. The glass batteries (if they ever arrive) probably won’t.   At least not at temp shifts the earth gets currently.  I know nothing about the sodium batteries CATL is supposed to start putting out in 2023. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[jagdtigger]

7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

No it actually does.  They’re just not as bad as diesel or li-ion.

In my experience only type of gasoline that has cold start issues are the blends that have ethanol in them (water content). My bike for example did not have any issues starting in the cold with a fuel that has 0 ethanol in it:

(It was stored in a shed obviously without heating, the battery was left inside the bike.)

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

In my experience only type of gasoline that has cold start issues are the blends that have ethanol in them (water content). My bike for example did not have any issues starting in the cold with a fuel that has 0 ethanol in it:

(It was stored in a shed obviously without heating, the battery was left inside the bike.)

The problem I have with ethanol gas is with small engines.  You leave the crap in there without starting them for a month and you get laquer in your carburetor and you have to take it out and clean it.  Fuel stabilizer helps but doesn’t solve the problem.  Old fashioned gas does though.  I get it in cans specifically for the purpose

[jagdtigger]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

 I get it in cans specifically for the purpose

Guess im lucky then that there is one chain here that sells gasoline that has a ethanol replacement in it that has none of the issues.....

[starsmine]

22 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

In my experience only type of gasoline that has cold start issues are the blends that have ethanol in them (water content). My bike for example did not have any issues starting in the cold with a fuel that has 0 ethanol in it:

(It was stored in a shed obviously without heating, the battery was left inside the bike.)

What cold are we talking bout? 20 degrees F (-4C)? or -1 degree F(-18C)?
Because what Bomb and I are talking about are days when -10C is the HIGH. Which in the Dakotas, is pretty much all of January and February. With lows in the -30s C and wind chill in the -40s C

 

Also Buck the Bison, Fargo, Guess who won this year, thats right, Jackrabbits baby

Winter blend uses ethanol (generally more then summer). https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339380/the-vapor-rub-summer-versus-winter-gasoline-explained/
Its part of how they get Vaporization pressure higher in the winter. 

 

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, starsmine said:

What cold are we talking bout? 20 degrees F (-4C)? or -1 degree F(-18C)?
Because what Bomb and I are talking about are days when -10C is the HIGH. Which in the Dakotas, is pretty much all of January and February. With lows in the -30s C and wind chill in the -40s C

 

Also Buck the Bison, Fargo, Guess who won this year, thats right, Jackrabbits baby

Winter blend uses ethanol (generally more then summer). https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339380/the-vapor-rub-summer-versus-winter-gasoline-explained/
Its part of how they get Vaporization pressure higher in the winter. 

 

Heh. Notice those summer highs too.  If anything they’re lower than I experienced.  I got out of THERE as fast as I could. I wasn’t alone.  The most popular military branch was the navy (geographical center of the continent) and the most popular company was northwest airlines.  The worst I’ve seen living in the twin cities is -15f.  It’s a river valley.  Less extreme temps both summer and winter.   I lived in Fargo. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Bombastinator

[starsmine]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Heh. Notice those summer highs too.  If anything they’re lower than I experienced.  I got out of THERE as fast as I could.  The worst I’ve seen living in the twin cities is -15f.  It’s a river valley.  Less extreme temps both summer and winter.   I lived in Fargo. 

I bailed out of Brookings after 8 years and swore to never live someone cold again. I see stuff like Micron in Idaho, or IBM and WD in Rochester and nope out.