Nvidia is at it again: 3060 8GB released, up to 35% slower than its 12GB counterpart

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

It's misleading for many reason and we the community and the market as a whole are part of that. I'm not making an argument to target Nvidia specifically and saying they are doing deceptive advertising. That case could be made but I'm not making that. I'm saying with how it's named people can and likely will be mislead in to what they get but MORE importantly they are being mislead in to believing and "learning" that VRAM capacity has a direct relation to performance which it does not. There are two different problems involved.

 

I have more than clarified what my problem is, if you are not capable of understanding, likely due to your own bias, that is a you problem not mine. You seem to be the one unable to figure it out and I cannot correct a problem with you and your own mindset, that is impossible. No amount of re-explaining the points given will change this. Go back many pages, read them all again, figure it out for yourself.

 

And when I say read it again, I mean read it in full every word, start to end all of it! 99.9% sure you and others are not and have not.

 

And no they are not always listed with ram amount. Either you are lying now or not even bothering to look at the very pages you are on and being told to look at. Any claim otherwise invalidates everything you say. I will not accept lies nor ignorance from you as I do except better as you are more than capable of that.

 

I said the spec pages had it. Did you not read anything else? Go back to Nvidia pages and tell me what they are advertising performance wise on there. Tell me what information is that for.

 

Is it labeled RTX 3060 12GB?

No

Does it have a performance graph for the RTX 3060 8GB?

No

 

Your point is not relevant to what was said and are replying to and does not say anything different to what I already said to you.

 

You're making a very concerted effort to ignore the issue because why? Because you for whatever reason think 8GB is enough distinction without any valid and creditable reasoning to back it other than "it's different" while ignoring actual real legitimate problems with it's usage in that way, past problems I have evidenced of why it's a problem, and also any future times where using it again may or may not "accidently" lead consumers to the same outcome.

 

If you cannot see any information about a product on the product page that is a problem. Since I know for a fact that zero information about the RTX 3060 8GB exists on that product page other than the full specifications link for it you saying anything otherwise is false and lying.

 

And the discussion is going nowhere because you don't want it to be. I don't too at this point. I'm made myself ultra clear, change the GPU die configuration, memory bus or VRAM type and it must have a name change as per every other product. It must contain only existing naming conventions used in that generation or past recent generation that signify it is a different model and it must not use important suffixes that have an actual real meaning that is not related to model naming ergo VRAM capacity is an improper model designator and is only to be used to show VRAM capacity and not a single thing more.

 

I will agree to nothing else. Will I get my way? No of course I won't. This crap will happen again and you're part of why it will, but don't worry Nvidia's desire not to have to create an actual new product model and everything associated with it is by far the biggest factor. It's just sad to see people not care about making sure technical terminology and meaning is used correctly.

 

Nvidia agree with the above and does so unless they choose to not do it when it suits themselves and their own motives. As you noticed I don't give a damn about what they want if I can see it creates a problem.

 

And no VRAM capacity is not part of the official product names and even when it is Nvidia doesn't even use it. They also can't keep their own official pages up to date either.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/30-series/

 

Note the lack in any VRAM as part of the product name, because it's not part of it. Note here RTX 3060 being listed as only having 12GB.

 

Not here too.

 

I like how everyone is just skipping past the specs page that tells you everything you need to know:

 

 

It clearly shows there are 2 versions of the non TI, a 12G and an 8G, click view full specs and voila:

 

 

They are not hiding anything and separate the two cards specs clear enough.

 

Now if I go to buy either one this is how they are listed in nearly every store:

 

Nvidia and every card maker use the RAM size as a postfix to differentiate between models.  It has always been this way which is why the 1030 issue was unforgivable.

 

 

[mr moose]

Just now, HenrySalayne said:

 

You can only find a tiny piece of information in a sub-window on the page AND you need to understand the implication of memory clock and bus width for memory bandwidth AND you need to know how these parameters with the underlying architecture interact AND you need to know how this impacts gaming performance, BUT THEY ARE NOT HIDING IT.

 

Laugh it up,  every listing has the ram, every review that comes out will also have the ram as the identifier,  there is literally no reason for anyone to be confused as to the performance of this card compared to it's 12G sibling, even without looking at the NVIDIA website.  Especially if you know nothing about the tech.

 

The funny thing here is the fact people are desperately trying to sidestep the obvious to prove that stupid people will be somehow be mislead into buying a smaller number item, and that's also without looking at reviews yet assuming they will look up one page on nvidia's website and decide that that one card with smaller number is better than everything else on offer.

 

I mean if that doesn't sound silly to you then I don't know what you need from these companies.

 

 

 

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Google RTX 3060 8GB review and click on the first result, go on I dare you 

Again, the lack of reviews for the 3060 8G does not prove anything.

 

The card was released how long ago? and were reviewers even sent any? I'm going to say not that I can find.  So we have to wait for them to buy them and do reviews.  When they have and the reviews all say the same thing what will we have?  A bunch of reviews for the 3060ti, the 3060 12G and the 3060 8G.  Whoopy do.  we'll have a bunch of reviewers telling people not to buy the 8G version unless it is stupidly cheap. 

 

 

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

@leadeater, others and me have shown several examples of reviews not differentiating between the 12 GB and the 8 GB variant. And they are NOT DOING IT ON THEIR OWN SITE.

 

https://www.techspot.com/review/2581-nvidia-rtx-3060-8gb/

here's the first result when I searched 3060 8G review

 

 

they go to great lengths to differentiate the two.  Edit: even to the point of outright telling people to avoid it.

 

Again why so determines to make something out of nothing?

 

EDIT2: also no one has shown several reviews of it not being differentiated from each other, what they have shown are reviews of only the 12G version because there are not many 8G reviews out yet. The rest of the stuff you have posted is just Nvidia marketing and not reviews.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Again, the lack of reviews for the 3060 8G does not prove anything.

 

The card was released how long ago? and were reviewers even sent any? I'm going to say not that I can find.  So we have to wait for them to buy them and do reviews.  When they have and the reviews all say the same thing what will we have?  A bunch of reviews for the 3060ti, the 3060 12G and the 3060 8G.  Whoopy do.  we'll have a bunch of reviewers telling people not to buy the 8G version unless it is stupidly cheap. 

Oct 2022 yet another cards are able to have the correct information and be found correctly one day once of the release. Unacceptable outcome.

 

Lack of reviews is not the only proof but yes indeed it is valid and acceptable evidence to show that there is an issue, one that would not exist if it did not share the RTX 3060 name and actually had it's own Nvidia official product name. Because I'll remind you the official name is and is only "RTX 3060", only online stores add on extra product specifications to the listing title and that is not unique to this card nor Nvidia and the retail boxes only display RTX 3060 as the model with a small logo on the box not next to the model name containing "8GB".

 

This is what anyone will see in physical retail

 

 

And if you want an in person photo I can go to my local PB Tech and take a photo of these

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

https://www.techspot.com/review/2581-nvidia-rtx-3060-8gb/

here's the first result when I searched 3060 8G review

Ah yes today and now only from today has that been the case and it's only the case now because Techspot/Hardware Unboxed bothered to buy one, independently, and create the article informing us of the issue. Had they not noticed do you think there would be anyone talking about it or any reviews since this variant did not get released with any official public announcement?

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

they go to great lengths to differentiate the two.  Edit: even to the point of outright telling people to avoid it.

 

Again why so determines to make something out of nothing?

Dude this topic is literally sourced from them. Why do you go to great lengths to pass this actual issue off as nothing. No in fact YOU are in the wrong. This issue is a problem, has been in the past and will likely be so again. Are you even aware of what you are talking about and where the information is coming from? Seems you aren't since you just said that completely unaware of who Techspot is and what this topic source is.

 

I agree with them, this topic exists because of them. We are aware because of them. So how you can conclude this is not an issue is beyond me.

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

The rest of the stuff you have posted is just Nvidia marketing and not reviews.

Nvidia not having and being unwilling to have correct information on their website about their own damn product that they released is an issue. It is even more important that have this if they are not going to

• Announce the product
• Notify reviewers
• Offer or supply review samples
• Mention anywhere that it will perform differently

So it is more of an issue due to this not less. You are lucky to have any information about this product at all and you think that is acceptable, ludicrous.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I like how everyone is just skipping past the specs page that tells you everything you need to know:

Liar.

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Nvidia and every card maker use the RAM size as a postfix to differentiate between models

False. Yet another lie.

 

Thanks for literally proving 100% you read nothing. Goodbye.

[mr moose]

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Oct 2022 yet another cards are able to have the correct information and be found correctly one day once of the release. Unacceptable outcome.

 

Lack of reviews is not the only proof but yes indeed it is valid and acceptable evidence to show that there is an issue, one that would not exist if it did not share the RTX 3060 name and actually had it's own Nvidia official product name. Because I'll remind you the official name is and is only "RTX 3060", only online stores add on extra product specifications to the listing title and that is not unique to this card nor Nvidia and the retail boxes only display RTX 3060 as the model with a small logo on the box not next to the model name containing "8GB".

 

This is what anyone will see in physical retail

 

 

And if you want an in person photo I can go to my local PB Tech and take a photo of these

I'm seeing quite clearly 8GB on those boxes too. EDIT: on the Asus box the 8GB is even bigger than the 3060 marking.

 

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ah yes today and now only from today has that been the case and it's only the case now because Techspot/Hardware Unboxed bothered to buy one, independently, and create the article informing us of the issue. Had they not notice do you think there would be anyone talking about it or any reviews since this variant did not get release if any official public announcement?

You mean had someone not done a review on it?  That's why we have reviews, so those of us who can;t afford to keep buying GPU's until we get one that is satisfactory can look at their performance before we purchase.,  the review existing is not proof that this is a bad product name.

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Dude this topic is literally sourced from them. Why do you go to great lengths to pass this actual issue off as nothing. No in fact YOU are in the wrong. This issue is a problem, has been in the past and will likely be so again. Are you even aware of what you are talking about and where the information is coming from? Seems you aren't since you just said that completely unaware of who Techspot is and what this topic source is.

Yes clearly I am wrong because I can point out that the card you insist is misleading actually can't be mistaken for another card unless you completely ignore half the box or the listing on a website. 

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I agree with them, this topic exists because of them. We are aware because of them. So how you can conclude this is not an issue is beyond me.

 

Nvidia not having and being unwilling to have correct information on their website about their own damn product that they released is an issue. It is even more important that have this if they are not going to

• Announce the product
• Notify reviewers
• Offer or supply review samples
• Mention anywhere that it will perform differently

So it is more of an issue due to this not less.

Their website is correct, what you are pointing to is the normal marketing guff that is generic for all of them.  We are not talking about marketing, we are talking about consumers being mislead by the products name, the bit they can identify in reviews and on shelves or in listings.  Those are two very different things and you know it.

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Liar.

 

False. Yet another lie.

 

Thanks for literally proving 100% you read nothing. Goodbye.

How is it a lie when it's on every box and in every listing and, most importantly, what nvidia use themselves to differentiated the two versions as I posted their own specs sheet to prove.  Here it is a gain:

 

 

It clearly shows the two versions one being the 12GB and the other the 8Gb and shows you the bandwidth for each.

 

They are using the ram size here to differentiate between the two cards.  The fact you are pretending that is not the case is mind blowing because I know you are not that silly.

 

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I'm seeing quite clearly 8GB on those boxes too.

Not as part of the model name.

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You mean had someone not done a review on it?  That's why we have reviews, so those of us who can;t afford to keep buying GPU's until we get one that is satisfactory can look at their performance before we purchase.,  the review existing is not proof that this is a bad product name.

Please do tell me again how those reviews would happen?

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yes clearly I am wrong because I can point out that the card you insist is misleading actually can't be mistaken for another card unless you completely ignore half the box or the listing on a website. 

Ah yes since it contains RTX 3060 and all official information from Nvidia is not for that card and all information you could find about the card prior to Techspot/Hardware Unboxed review and article on it were only for the original RTX 3060 it would be totally impossible for more than a month now for people to get the wrong information...

 

Yes you are wrong.

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Their website is correct, what you are pointing to is the normal marketing guff that is generic for all of them.  We are not talking about marketing, we are talking about consumers being mislead by the products name, the bit they can identify in reviews and on shelves or in listings.  Those are two very different things and you know it.

Nope unacceptable argument. With such a different product at the fundamental technical level and also large performance difference it is unacceptable to have a generic RTX 3060 performance graph that does not differentiate nor show there are two different variants of the card.

 

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

How is it a lie when it's on every box and in every listing and, most importantly, what nvidia use themselves to differentiated the two versions as I posted their own specs sheet to prove.  Here it is a gain:

Spec sheet is not a model differentiator and Nvidia does not officially differentiate the two model naming wise. They only require the vram capacity is signified ion the box or on the online listing which is not the same thing.

 

 

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Nvidia and every card maker use the RAM size as a postfix to differentiate between models.

See above for how false you are. Nvidia does not do that. The official model name for both is RTX 3060 and only RTX 3060.

 

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They are using the ram size here to differentiate between the two cards.  The fact you are pretending that is not the case is mind blowing because I know you are not that silly

I am not pretending that is not the case you just aren't reading a single thing nor willing to evaluate said arguments. But since you continue to post lies and falsehoods why should I care that you are not doing so? Why should I care about your opinion. Why should anyone participate with a discussion with you about this.

 

Since I assume you did not get a chance to read my other post until now I will commence said activity.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Not as part of the model name.

Product name them, product marking, product presentation,  call it whatever the fuck you want, you will NEVER see a 3060 8G without the 8G marking clear and present.  My argument the whole time along is that consumers will not be mislead by this because the product name is not misleading and the specs of the product have not been obfuscated.

 

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Please do tell me again how those reviews would happen?

The same way any review happens when journalists don;t get cards, they go out and buy one then do their reviews.  It does happen a fair bit because not everyone gets samples to review.

 

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ah yes since it contains RTX 3060 and all official information form Nvidia if not for that card and all information you could find about the card prior to Techspot/Hardware Unboxed review and article on it were only for the original RTX 3060 it would be totally impossible for more than a month now for people to get the wrong information...

So far all we have is evidence that the product is not marked or named exactly the same as the 12G version.  and that nvidia have the specs clearly presented on their site for anyone who wants to look them up.

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes you are wrong.

Nope unacceptable argument. With such a different product at the fundamental technical level and also large performance difference it is unacceptable for have a generic RTX 3060 performance graph that does not differentiate nor show there are two different variants of the card.

 

Since I assume you did not get a chance to read my other post until now I will commence said activity.

It's only your opinion that the difference between the products requires a larger difference in the name.  My argument has only ever been that there is enough of a difference in the products name (and yes I am most certainly including the ram size in it's name because that's how they differentiate between models 99% of the time and it's how we know the difference) for all consumers to know they are not the same product and therefore should look up what the difference is.

 

Just like whacking a GT or TX or LE on the end of a product makes it a different product without explaining what the difference is this is exactly the same.

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The same way any review happens when journalists don;t get cards, they go out and buy one then do their reviews.  It does happen a fair bit because not everyone gets samples to review.

Ok now that is a good step in the right direction. Now tell me how they would know to go buy it?

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It's only your opinion that the difference between the products requires a larger difference in the name.

That is not my only opinion nor my sole comments about this. If you were reading you'd know this.

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

My argument has only ever been that there is enough of a difference in the products name (and yes I am most certainly including the ram size in it's name because that's how they differentiate between models 99% of the time and it's how we know the difference) for all consumers to know they are not the same product and therefore should look up what the difference is.

And it's not a good one either. Like too bad if they even tried the most likely outcome would have been finding information about the 12GB card.

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Just like whacking a GT or TX or LE on the end of a product makes it a different product without explaining what the difference is this is exactly the same.

As bad as those are those do not spread the misinformation that vram capacity is directly related to performance and anything that would normalize this I will object to.

 

Die on the hill of "but the spec sheet", it's not sufficient information to any buyer as to what they are getting. If they can make the effort for the original product, the 12GB, they can make the effort for the 8GB. They didn't, I am and will criticize them for it while also saying naming it in that why is bad regardless if they had bothered to.

 

I as an educated buyer that knows memory bus matters has no way of knowing what the difference between a 128bit and 192bit variant would be. I could only rely on information from Nvidia or independent reviews. Had I been buying a month ago and looking at these two I would have zero information necessary from both those options. Going back days while it was possible to get it from Techspot/Hardware Unboxed I would have to be careful not to end up looking at the original RTX 3060. So much of this is relying on the buyer that I find that a problem.

[Sauron]

just... WHY? just call it the 3050/ti?

[Blademaster91]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:24 AM, HenrySalayne said:

That's not a good point. We have seen XX70 series dice getting put into XX60 cards, but Nvidia tuned the performance to be slightly better or on par with the XX60 series die.

 

Even if they do, all reviews dating back to the 3060 (12 GB) launch simply call the card 3060. Nvidia not only knew this, their homepage also doesn't differentiate between the 8 GB model and the 12 GB model.

The final verdict can only be one thing: Nvidia is deceiving their costumers.

True, there is also the revision of 30 series cards with LHR, going by the die number alone isn't a very good way to indicate a difference.

And yeah the spec page isn't up to date either, so either Nvidia rushed the 3060 8GB to launch and didn't update the page, or they're trying to hide the difference. But Nvidia also didn't announce the 3060 8GB, or tell reviewers and offer any review samples, Nvidia isn't stupid which makes this product seem like they're intentionally trying to mislead consumers with two different cards with the same product naming.

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Nvidia isn't stupid which makes this product seem like they're intentionally trying to mislead consumers with two different cards with the same product naming.

I think it's more likely they are just being lazy or some form of that since it's a region specific variant. These odd ball cards are almost always only available in the Asia Pacific areas, probably because logistically it's easier as that is where they get made. May or may not be in response to an over supply or under supply issue, some actually legitimate business reason made them do this. It's not like Nvidia create products like this just for fun, everything has a cost so not doing it and sticking with current models would be cheaper without factors that would change that.

 

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they did none to minimal testing and found the performance difference to be small based on what they did and authorized this. I doubt there is any reference Nvidia designs for it and it's on AIBs to use existing design knowledge and rules. Basically it would not shock me at all if Nvidia had no idea the performance difference on average across a large sample of games was this large. 

 

Giving it an official model designation like RTX 3050 Ti would likely necessitate a global release and availability as well as creating all the supporting marketing and product information for it. Something Nvidia seems they did not want to do.

 

Not that it excuses any of this.

[leadeater]

44 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Just a quick reminder that the memory width dropped by a third. I think that would have come up in testing, since all benchmarks done on this card show it pretty clearly (not always 30% though, but that's expected).

I know how much less it is but that really does depend on what was tested and also if it was tested. Also the review/article may well just have chosen to show all the worst case examples on purpose to illustrate the problem, I know I would have done that.

 

Quote

So let's take a look at that, we'll go over a few games and then show you a 12 game average. For collecting these results we used fresh data with both 12GB and 8GB RTX 3060 cards using the latest display drivers. Other GPUs are included for comparison purposes.

Quote

That's enough with the individual game results, you can easily get the idea. On average you can expect 17% better performance with the 12GB model at 1080p, but as we saw that margin can be as high as 35%...

Most of the shown examples were above the 17% so I kind of have to assume the worst case examples were shown mostly.

 

I honestly don't think Nvidia did anymore more than projected performance difference and not actually product testing since I don't think they built a single one of these and are AIB only.

 

44 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

They design a new SKU, they cut a third of the memory bus and they had no idea? That's impossible.

They knew it would perform worse the difference is knowing by how much. They may have projected 10%-15% and decided "eh that should be fine".

 

Like I said doesn't make it ok but I can definitely see how Nvidia did next to no product testing and just signed off on it to move more product and resolve what might be a temporary GDDR6 shortage. There actually has to be a reason to do this, simply being jerks actually isn't one. There actually has to be a larger business driver than that.

 

AIBs have to buy both the die and GDDR from Nvidia, they don't source the GDDR directly themselves so any supply issues with GDDR would be dealt with directly by Nvidia be that over or under supply. Or it's an oversupply of GPU dies.

[Fasterthannothing]

Wow you guys are still going at it? 9 pages of arguing if users are too stupid to read numbers on a box or not. Get a life people it's not that big of a deal.

[Shzzit]

This any different then 1060 3gb vs 6gb? I mean both company’s have been doing this for a long time. 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

I'm pretty sure it's in Nvidia's power to turn 12 GB models into 8 GB models with a flick of a switch.

They other way around would be more complicated though...

Well yea they have to authorize it, or more likely in this case require AIBs to make it but that doesn't mean they actually made any engineering samples and ran it through testing. 

 

4 hours ago, Fasterthannothing said:

Wow you guys are still going at it? 9 pages of arguing if users are too stupid to read numbers on a box or not. Get a life people it's not that big of a deal.

It's only as big of a deal as people want to make bad arguments and pretend it's not an issue. It's only a small issue, it only get bigger when certain people want to argue against all the evidence in front of them and ignore everything that is said and shown to them.

 

It's a bad name and should have been named better. Since far as I can see literally everyone agrees, any arguments otherwise is entirely pointless. Making it necessary to point out that foolishness is the problem, more so than a dumb graphics card name that could have easily been anything else.

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, Shzzit said:

This any different then 1060 3gb vs 6gb? I mean both company’s have been doing this for a long time. 

Did you know there was a GTX 1060 5GB that performed worse than the GTX 1030 3GB? Did you know my opinion of the 3GB vs 6GB that time is the same as this time. Repeated bad doesn't change to good because it's repeated.

 

But bigger number is better. But VRAM capacity is adequate differentiator always. But people can easily read 

 

Bad arguments are bad. People just need to learn when they just don't have a good one.

[mr moose]

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

Ok now that is a good step in the right direction. Now tell me how they would know to go buy it?

They would know for the same reason they did know and and we know, Nvidia released it and they went and got one.  Just because there was no fan fare doesn't mean no reviewer is ever going to know it exists.  

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

That is not my only opinion nor my sole comments about this. If you were reading you'd know this.

Having multiple opinions doesn't mean any single one of them can't be just yours as opposed to being factual or relevant to everyone.

 

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

And it's not a good one either. Like too bad if they even tried the most likely outcome would have been finding information about the 12GB card.

I think a product being uniquely identified no matter where you look (makers website, online store, box on shelf or at any review site) is probably the single most important requirement of transparency for consumers.

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

As bad as those are those do not spread the misinformation that vram capacity is directly related to performance and anything that would normalize this I will object to.

Are you saying the card doesn't have 8G of ram?  It does not claim on either box or listing how good the ram is, none of them do, just like hdd and ssd size doesn't indicate performance.   If any consumer doesn't look at reviews to see if the 8G version performs adequately for the price or in comparison to the 12G version then it doesn't matter how good or bad the name is, that consumer is going to buy a random product.   If we are talking specifically about those who are uneducated, then they are far more likely to look at reviews between them or ask on forums what the difference is. 

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

Die on the hill of "but the spec sheet", it's not sufficient information to any buyer as to what they are getting. If they can make the effort for the original product, the 12GB, they can make the effort for the 8GB. They didn't, I am and will criticize them for it while also saying naming it in that why is bad regardless if they had bothered to.

I don;t know why you think I intend on dying on any hill, it's a pretty simple concept,  you would have to be a blind moron to not know there is a difference between the two cards, Nvidia don't hide the difference if you go look at the specs and reviewers are showing consumers what that difference is. 

 

19 hours ago, leadeater said:

I as an educated buyer that knows memory bus matters has no way of knowing what the difference between a 128bit and 192bit variant would be. I could only rely on information from Nvidia or independent reviews. Had I been buying a month ago and looking at these two I would have zero information necessary from both those options. Going back days while it was possible to get it from Techspot/Hardware Unboxed I would have to be careful not to end up looking at the original RTX 3060. So much of this is relying on the buyer that I find that a problem.

If you were buying a month ago and could not find a review would even buy it?  Would you be trying to find out what it's all about?   Of course you would, because as you have just illustrated you noticed from the get go that it isn't the 12G version and something is different.  That should tell you all you need to know.  they are the same price and one has more ram,  even if the 8G version was cheaper the first question anyone (dumb or educated) is going to ask is why is it cheaper and will I notice the difference? is that saving worth it?   Until you can answer those then it's just an unknown.  Besides all that, 8G does not insinuate better performance, if anything having it the direct option beside the 12G version would suggest it is worse.

 

The entire premise and argument I am making is that the card is uniquely identified at all levels of advertising, review and sales.  If a consumer cannot get the information they need to make a wise choice either by lack of care for research or because no reviews exist then they have a choice to buy it or wait or buy something they know the performance of.  In every situation the consumer has the choice and is not misled. 

[mr moose]

17 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

They design a new SKU, they cut a third of the memory bus and they had no idea? That's impossible.

Deliberate is a strong word but in this case it applies beyond reasonable doubt.

I think there is no doubt they knew exactly what they were releasing,  they know exactly how it performs and deliberate is a reasonable word.    

 

 

[CTR640]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:17 PM, mr moose said:

 

I like how everyone is just skipping past the specs page that tells you everything you need to know:

 

 

It clearly shows there are 2 versions of the non TI, a 12G and an 8G, click view full specs and voila:

 

 

They are not hiding anything and separate the two cards specs clear enough.

 

Now if I go to buy either one this is how they are listed in nearly every store:

 

Nvidia and every card maker use the RAM size as a postfix to differentiate between models.  It has always been this way which is why the 1030 issue was unforgivable.

 

 

Dutch version doesn't have the different 3060:

 

Any other Dutch member can verify that.

 

It's from the link you posted and nVidia directed me autmatically to the Dutch version.

[leadeater]

20 hours ago, mr moose said:

If you were buying a month ago and could not find a review would even buy it?  Would you be trying to find out what it's all about?   Of course you would, because as you have just illustrated you noticed from the get go that it isn't the 12G version and something is different.  That should tell you all you need to know.  they are the same price and one has more ram,  even if the 8G version was cheaper the first question anyone (dumb or educated) is going to ask is why is it cheaper and will I notice the difference? is that saving worth it?   Until you can answer those then it's just an unknown.  Besides all that, 8G does not insinuate better performance, if anything having it the direct option beside the 12G version would suggest it is worse.

The 8GB version is actually available for cheaper and the way it is named in the complete absence of information would lead a lot of people to assume since it's "An RTX 3060" that it is the same fundamental product just with less VRAM which it isn't.

 

And to remind you complete absence of information had been the actual situation for a decent period of time. Yet even now when that information can be found it is too easy to end up looking at information for the 12GB card by mistake.

 

20 hours ago, mr moose said:

Besides all that, 8G does not insinuate better performance, if anything having it the direct option beside the 12G version would suggest it is worse.

No it suggest 8GB VRAM versus 12GB VRAM.

 

Promoting and accepting anything otherwise is literally a primary objection of mine or have you not noticed? To use it to signify a performance difference or a product difference that is befitting of a different model name as Nvidia would normally do is wrong always, Every single time.

[leadeater]

21 hours ago, mr moose said:

They would know for the same reason they did know and and we know, Nvidia released it and they went and got one.  Just because there was no fan fare doesn't mean no reviewer is ever going to know it exists.

And how and where exactly did Nvidia tell anyone? Do something for me, Google GTX 1060 5GB review. Surely you agree enough time has passed for reviews of that to be out by now?

 

Do not assume reviewers will know and reviews will exist, that is a bad and unsafe assumption to make.

 

21 hours ago, mr moose said:

I think a product being uniquely identified no matter where you look (makers website, online store, box on shelf or at any review site) is probably the single most important requirement of transparency for consumers.

No the single most important thing is that the name difference actually portrays and prompts people in to thinking the right thing. Just because one says 8GB and the other says 12GB while both being called RTX 3060 does not mean this. You say it does, I say it does not.

 

I think there is a non zero group of people that would make this mistake, I think there is a non zero group of people who actually tried to look for the difference would end up looking at the wrong information due to the name conflict. Since there is certainly a non zero group of people the use of a different name not containing RTX 3060 followed by VRAM capacity or AIB product naming then VRAM capacity (as is standard so not out of the normal) would be the safer option.

 

My proposal is safer than the current name and the naming you are defending as adequate while making the argument that not everyone can be saved from themselves while disregarding those that could have been. Since neither of us will ever be able to quantify any of this I will maintain my position is the safer one.

 

21 hours ago, mr moose said:

Are you saying the card doesn't have 8G of ram?  It does not claim on either box or listing how good the ram is, none of them do, just like hdd and ssd size doesn't indicate performance.

RTX 3060 is the signifier of product configuration and performance. So you are very wrong here, the boxes all literally do say this unlike your incorrect statement right now. Why are you even saying this? Literally the fact the box does not adequately portray that there is such a large difference in the underlying product and it's performance is literally, literally, what I am pointing out and complaining about. 

 

If you cannot figure out that a RTX 3060 and an RTX 3070 signifies these types of differences then you have a seriously large problem. Looking at a review is not required to understand this.

 

RTX 3060 vs RTX 3070 does so adequately

RTX 3060 8GB vs RTX 3060 12GB does not adequately 

RTX 3050 Ti 8GB vs RTX 3060 12GB does so adequately 

RTX 3050 Ti vs RTX 3060 does so adequately 

 

3 out of 4 informs any buyer that there is a fundamental difference between the products that goes beyond minor differences. This even the least educated person already understands

 

Just like for an SSD I know a Samsung 970 Pro 1TB is a higher performing and higher endurance product than a Samsung 970 EVO 2TB. Just as you now said capacity doesn't indicate performance for HDDs and SSDs so why would it for GPU VRAM? You seem to both know this and ignore it at the same time.

 

You do realize you just counter argued your own point nicely with that you said right?

 

21 hours ago, mr moose said:

The entire premise and argument I am making is that the card is uniquely identified at all levels of advertising, review and sales.

And your reasoning, logic and arguments are full of holes and history proving you wrong. The names being unique isn't even in question. Nobody ever has said otherwise. RTX 3060 8GB and RTX 3060 12GB are unique yet do not sufficiently differentiate how different these products are and in what way. As has been pointed out to you countless times now.

[mr moose]

15 hours ago, CTR640 said:

Dutch version doesn't have the different 3060:

 

Any other Dutch member can verify that.

 

It's from the link you posted and nVidia directed me autmatically to the Dutch version.

Maybe the 8G versions is not up for sale ther or maybe whgoever is in charge of that part is lazy? I don't know.

 

13 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

I have shown earlier that even if a costumer watches reviews, most older reviews are not even mentioning the RAM size.This lures even consumers who try to educate themselves into a trap. And what you are doing here is just victim shaming.

 

Which review didn't specify the ram size?  

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

The 8GB version is actually available for cheaper and the way it is named in the complete absence of information would lead a lot of people to assume since it's "An RTX 3060" that it is the same fundamental product just with less VRAM which it isn't.

So you think people can't differentiate between a 12 and an 8?    Only in a few heads does the black and white absolutes conclude that only the first 4 numbers are important and everything else can be ignored.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

And to remind you complete absence of information had been the actual situation for a decent period of time. Yet even now when that information can be found it is too easy to end up looking at information for the 12GB card by mistake.

So?  if you buy a product that is not reviewed and you don't know how it performs who's fault is that?    Thinking that 3060 by itself should tell you everything you need to know to make an informed decision is just fantasy. 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

No it suggest 8GB VRAM versus 12GB VRAM.

Huh? so we have gone from 8G is not different to 12 G to 8g is a suggestion? Come on.

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Promoting and accepting anything otherwise is literally a primary objection of mine or have you not noticed? To use it to signify a performance difference or a product difference that is befitting of a different model name as Nvidia would normally do is wrong always, Every single time.

That is still just your personal opinion.  I got shitty with nvidia for making two 2G 1030's that were fundamentally different for this exact reason, but here they have not done that. There has always been a fundamental attribute that makes it clear the products are different, most of the time RAM is the difference.   IF you read all of the articles aregarding this very topic you can clearly see the very reason they believe there is a problem is due to RAM size offered.    Hell the OP article even they identify it purely by ram size:

 

From the article:

Quote

RTX 3060 8GB: Way slower, no cheaper, avoid, says first online review

Quote

downspecced 8GB version of the Nvidia GeForce RTX 3060 (opens in new tab) has been tested downunder by Hardware Unboxed (opens in new tab) and found horribly wanting despite offering no cost savings, for now.

Quote

The typical performance deficit versus the original 12GB model

 

Quote

The cheapest 8GB RTX 3060 from Newegg is

 

 

Every single time they want ot identify which card they are talking about hey use the Ram, they don;t say, the version with the lower memory bus bandwidth, or the card that is downspec'd.  Why? because Nvidia, card makerts and consumers all know that the ram size is the differentiator.  You know, I know, everyone knows it. Stop pretending it's not it doesn't do exactly that. 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

And how and where exactly did Nvidia tell anyone? Do something for me, Google GTX 1060 5GB review. Surely you agree enough time has passed for reviews of that to be out by now?

I don't know, but they did such a good job at not telling anyone that a few reviews are out and we all know about it.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Do not assume reviewers will know and reviews will exist, that is a bad and unsafe assumption to make.

they do know and have done,  the only reason we found out about it was because exactly that happened.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

No the single most important thing is that the name difference actually portrays and prompts people in to thinking the right thing. Just because one says 8GB and the other says 12GB while both being called RTX 3060 does not mean this. You say it does, I say it does not.

That seems to be the only thing you have to underpin your entire argument.  Ram size means something other than ram size is not exactly a great foundation for claiming misleading or deceptive marketing.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

I think there is a non zero group of people that would make this mistake, I think there is a non zero group of people who actually tried to look for the difference would end up looking at the wrong information due to the name conflict. Since there is certainly a non zero group of people the use of a different name not containing RTX 3060 followed by VRAM capacity or AIB product naming then VRAM capacity (as is standard so not out of the normal) would be the safer option.

 

There is always a none zero group of people who will make all manner of mistakes,  but as I said earlier, if someone is that stupid that they will not look up reviews or find out what the difference is between 8 and 12 for this model then no naming convention will help them.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

My proposal is safer than the current name and the naming you are defending as adequate while making the argument that not everyone can be saved from themselves while disregarding those that could have been. Since neither of us will ever be able to quantify any of this I will maintain my position is the safer one.

I see no evidence that the current prefix/GPU number/post fix and ram size naming scheme (when honest) actually misleads consumers.   You can have two identical GPU's with identical ram bandwidth, power connectors the whole shebang bar for ram size and you will still need reviews to know if the ram size limitation is a problem for your chosen game/setup.  The fact that other specs change with ram size should not be a problem because it has already been established that the product is not the same.    And if you think you are good enough to know how much ram you need for a given GPU and game without looking up reviews then good for you, 99% of consumers don't know or only think they know.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

RTX 3060 is the signifier of product configuration and performance. So you are very wrong here, the boxes all literally do say this unlike your incorrect statement right now. Why are you even saying this? Literally the fact the box does not adequately portray that there is such a large difference in the underlying product and it's performance is literally, literally, what I am pointing out and complaining about. 

Your argument boils down to "the box doesn't tell me how the card will perform" so it must be misleading.   Nothing on the box including the GPU name will tell you how it will perform, you need reviews for that.  What the information on the box does do is identify exactly which product this is so when you look up reviews you can see how it performs. This is the one thing you fail to address.  There is a review out, it's not hard to find the review, we all know about it so you can ask on this forum and someone will tell you straight away not to buy it,  hell you can even go to Nvidia and get the actual specs on the card.   These are all facts you seem to think aren't as important as making the name tell you more than it actually can.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

If you cannot figure out that a RTX 3060 and an RTX 3070 signifies these types of differences then you have a seriously large problem. Looking at a review is not required to understand this.

All you need to know and all that really tells you is they are different.  You go to a review site to find out which one is better.    Just because the 3070 typically performs better does not mean that every 3070 will or that there might be a 3060 that performs better for the price, or that even something from AMD might be a better choice again. 

 

Hell, you wouldn't even know which one was better without reviews.

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

RTX 3060 vs RTX 3070 does so adequately

RTX 3060 8GB vs RTX 3060 12GB does not adequately 

RTX 3050 Ti 8GB vs RTX 3060 12GB does so adequately 

RTX 3050 Ti vs RTX 3060 does so adequately 

 

3 out of 4 informs any buyer that there is a fundamental difference between the products that goes beyond minor differences. This even the least educated person already understands

 

Just like for an SSD I know a Samsung 970 Pro 1TB is a higher performing and higher endurance product than a Samsung 970 EVO 2TB.

 

Only because you have seen reviews,  and only because you can identify each product in said reviews. 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Just as you now said capacity doesn't indicate performance for HDDs and SSDs so why would it for GPU VRAM? You seem to both know this and ignore it at the same time.

If you re read my posts you will see that I am not arguing RAM size is an indicator of performance, at best I am acknowledging that the average uneducated consumer will see a higher ram amount and think that means better.  My argument is that traditionally ram size is unique to each model/version (so much so that it is a defacto part of the name).  When Nvidia released two cards that are the same prefix, same GPU and same ram size but one is spec'd lower than I am totally on your side.  But my point in this case is that you can identify these products very clearly because of the ram size, therefore when you look at the review you will know which is better. 

 

 

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

You do realize you just counter argued your own point nicely with that you said right?

I really don't see how.

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

And your reasoning, logic and arguments are full of holes and history proving you wrong. The names being unique isn't even in question. Nobody ever has said otherwise. RTX 3060 8GB and RTX 3060 12GB are unique yet do not sufficiently differentiate how different these products are and in what way. As has been pointed out to you countless times now.

No, of course they don't tell you how it performs, it's just a bunch of numbers.   Reviews tell you how a product performs is specifically different in every attribute, names and specs identify the product, it really is that simple.  You cannot argue that the name needs to illustrate a degree of performance or the detail of the product because they just can't, there are way to many variations for that.  All the name has to do is be unique to the product so it cannot be confused with another product. this is why I said earlier what they call it doesn't matter, so long as it is uniquely different for each version/product.