gnome and dual monitor is bad

[heimdali]

Hi,

 

when I try gnome with 2 monitors, it's difficult to get the 2nd monitor to work at all, and if I get it to work, the 2nd monitor is stuck with whatever windows I move there in that when I switch to another workspace, that happens only on the first monitor as if the 2nd is unrelated to any workspace.  The 2nd monitor is kinda degraded to a fixed display.  This sucks.

 

Is it supposed to be like that?

 

Also, it's impossible to keep the audio output with the first monitor through the display port, so when I try to use both monitors, I have no audio.

 

All in all, that makes it impossible to use a 2nd monitor.  Is there a solution for that?

 

[Bombastinator]

24 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Hi,

 

when I try gnome with 2 monitors, it's difficult to get the 2nd monitor to work at all, and if I get it to work, the 2nd monitor is stuck with whatever windows I move there in that when I switch to another workspace, that happens only on the first monitor as if the 2nd is unrelated to any workspace.  The 2nd monitor is kinda degraded to a fixed display.  This sucks.

 

Is it supposed to be like that?

 

Also, it's impossible to keep the audio output with the first monitor through the display port, so when I try to use both monitors, I have no audio.

 

All in all, that makes it impossible to use a 2nd monitor.  Is there a solution for that?

 

My memory of gnome was that gnome had various problems.  I’m wildly out of date though.  Since it’s Linux though you have the choice of several desktop managers.

[heimdali]

Yes, though I have found that gnome has actually become usable after 20 years or so.  Since I prefer using wayland, there isn't much choice other than KDE --- which has much worse issues --- and sway --- which is really cool, only tiling WMs aren't for me.

 

I wish there was fvwm for wayland, but there isn't.  It's hard to believe that we can't use gnome with more than one monitor ...

 

[maplepants]

This is a fun topic for me. The first open source contribution I ever made was to gnome for config files relating to multi monitor setups in version 2.18.

 

I recommend you give this blog entry from gnome a read since it is about this. But, the short answer is that workspaces only on your primary monitor is the default configuration. The key for changing this is `workspaces-only-on-primary`. Changing this will give you workspaces across all your monitors. Here's how that'll look.

 

This is very different from macOS, where all of your monitors have they're own number and state for spaces, but the gnome devs are pretty committed to this model.

[heimdali]

Thank you for the pointer!  How would I change that setting and why isn't it in the settings?

 

However, I'm not sure what the blog entry wants to show me.  Since workspaces are horizontal (and having them dynamical is an issue in itself, so I had to disable that --- which isn't ideal either because having 16 workspaces in a row sucks compared to simply having 4x4), the only option with several monitors side by side horizontally like I have would be that each monitor has its own set of workspaces.  And that option would work fine for all setups with multiple monitors.  I don't think that's there, or is it?  (Plus I do need desktop scaling per monitor and not only one setting for all monitors.)

 

As long as it's not reasonably possible to get the 2nd monitor to work at all and as long as I don't have audio when the 2nd monitor is enabled, I'm stuck with a single monitor.

 

I don't understand why this is an issue at all.  Did nobody test this with multiple monitors?  What are these ppl thinking?  It was working just fine with fvwm, though back then I had audio over the sound card.  Audio over display port has always been an issue, and coming up with wireplumber instead of pulseaudio just when they finally got pulse to kinda work doesn't help at all.

 

As to config files, I found that I have to delete monitor.xml and then log in again (which comes down to rebooting because it's unclear if stuff still keeps running after logging out).  I made bug reports about such issues a while ago and nobody cares.

 

[maplepants]

You can change it with `gsettings` in the Terminal. Or you can grab dconf-editor and change it via a GUI. 

 

Personally, I don't think this default is much worse than the other option where workspaces are shared between monitors.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 4:05 PM, heimdali said:

I have would be that each monitor has its own set of workspaces.  And that option would work fine for all setups with multiple monitors.  I don't think that's there, or is it?

I too prefer the macOS approach where each display gets its own set of spaces. But to my knowledge at least, no linux desktop offers this possibility.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 4:05 PM, heimdali said:

(Plus I do need desktop scaling per monitor and not only one setting for all monitors.)

Doing this is basically janky as hell last time I tried it. You can do it using xrandr (https://askubuntu.com/questions/662546/config-dual-monitors-with-quite-different-resolution?rq=1), but it'll be ugly.

 

GTK and Qt apps just don't expect you to do this. These days I run 1440p so 100% scaling is fine. But when I ran 4k Gnome scaling was brutal. Some UI elements in apps would scale, while others wouldn't. So you could have in app menu bars with weirdly large or weirdly small text. And that's just with a single monitor running at 150% or 200% scaling (neither worked great for me). I would imagine that redrawing these UI elements as you drag the window from one display to another will either not happen, or not happen nicely. 

 

But maybe somebody with more recent multi-monitor linux experience can chime in on how it handles per monitor display scaling.

[heimdali]

7 hours ago, maplepants said:

You can change it with `gsettings` in the Terminal. Or you can grab dconf-editor and change it via a GUI. 

Thanks --- why don't they put it into the settings where it belongs?

7 hours ago, maplepants said:

 

Personally, I don't think this default is much worse than the other option where workspaces are shared between monitors.

It makes the 2nd monitor usless and is the worst option.  I don't understand how it could even occur to anyone to do it like this, let alone implement it.  It's sick and totally idiotic.

7 hours ago, maplepants said:

 

I too prefer the macOS approach where each display gets its own set of spaces. But to my knowledge at least, no linux desktop offers this possibility.

That's what they need to come up with ...  I can understand that historically there was this idea of using a 2nd monitor and it seemed to make sense to pretend that the whole display would go over two monitors.  That even works with more than 2 monitors.  But it gets kinda difficult when these monitors don't all have the same resolution.  And now, especially with their stupid idea of forcing the workspaces all into one row instead of allowing us to have multiple rows, the only option that does make sense is that each monitor has their own set of workspaces.

7 hours ago, maplepants said:

Doing this is basically janky as hell last time I tried it. You can do it using xrandr (https://askubuntu.com/questions/662546/config-dual-monitors-with-quite-different-resolution?rq=1), but it'll be ugly.

Oh that works fine now.  I have a 4k display and the 2nd one does 1920x1200.  That makes the scaling a bit too large for the 2nd one.  Scaling per monitor is basically a must have.

 

xrandr doesn't work with wayland.  There is some equivalent the name of which I always can't remember, and it's probably not exactly the same.  With wayland, I still can't even alter the configuration of my keyboard the way I need to and am forced to use a keyboard with an US layout which I'm lucky to have.  It used to be easy with xmodmap ...

7 hours ago, maplepants said:

 

GTK and Qt apps just don't expect you to do this. These days I run 1440p so 100% scaling is fine. But when I ran 4k Gnome scaling was brutal. Some UI elements in apps would scale, while others wouldn't. So you could have in app menu bars with weirdly large or weirdly small text. And that's just with a single monitor running at 150% or 200% scaling (neither worked great for me). I would imagine that redrawing these UI elements as you drag the window from one display to another will either not happen, or not happen nicely. 

 

But maybe somebody with more recent multi-monitor linux experience can chime in on how it handles per monitor display scaling.

Well, when a window is being redrawn, why shouldn't it be redrawn according to the scaling factor of the monitor it is being redrawn on.  It's not like it's unknown which monitor that is.  From what I've been reading, wayland is very ill conceived in some regards in that it leaves everything up to the program trying to show a window, and not even window decorations are being provided so that there would be at least some consistency.  Apparently that has lead to having to do all kinds of complicated stuff in the toolkits, like GTK and KDE, so that not every program needs to reinvent the wheel in order to show a window when it uses these tookits.  It's another one of these anti-fixes which makes things easier in one (fundamental) place and screws everything else up and makes everything very difficult everywhere else.  If there is an advantage to it, scaling per monitor would only mean that the toolkits, which do the drawing anyway, would need to consider the current scaling factor, which they already need to do anyway.

 

Do you have an idea how I could keep the audio going to the display port instead of HDMI when the 2nd monitor is enabled?  Without that, enabling the 2nd monitor is pointless.  My graphics card has a bunch of display port connectors and only one HDMI, but no, the sound goes invevitably to the HDMI connector and can't be switched back.  How stupid is that and how could anyone have the idea that audio should suddenly switch to another monitor just because the user enables that monitor.  How can they not have tested this before releasing the software.

[10leej]

On 10/24/2022 at 4:50 AM, heimdali said:

Hi,

 

when I try gnome with 2 monitors, it's difficult to get the 2nd monitor to work at all, and if I get it to work, the 2nd monitor is stuck with whatever windows I move there in that when I switch to another workspace, that happens only on the first monitor as if the 2nd is unrelated to any workspace.  The 2nd monitor is kinda degraded to a fixed display.  This sucks.

 

Is it supposed to be like that?

 

Also, it's impossible to keep the audio output with the first monitor through the display port, so when I try to use both monitors, I have no audio.

 

All in all, that makes it impossible to use a 2nd monitor.  Is there a solution for that?

 

It's the default behavior in gnome. You can change it in settings > multitasking assuming your using version 3.40 or newer.

 

Older versions of gnome you can install the gnome-tweaks tool

 

I personally leave the setting as default.

[heimdali]

Thanks, you're right, it's there under multitasking where nobody will ever find it.

 

Yet as long as there's no audio when the 2nd monitor is enabled and as long as I can't enable and disable the 2nd monitor at will without issues, I'm still stuck with a single monitor.  Support for multiple monitors is 24 years old and it still doesn't work.

 

[10leej]

15 hours ago, heimdali said:

Thanks, you're right, it's there under multitasking where nobody will ever find it.

 

Yet as long as there's no audio when the 2nd monitor is enabled and as long as I can't enable and disable the 2nd monitor at will without issues, I'm still stuck with a single monitor.  Support for multiple monitors is 24 years old and it still doesn't work.

 

Why not take this feedback upstream into gnome rather than here where gnome developers will never look?

[Thomas4]

The Gnome desktop is the Windows Bob in the Linux world.

[IkeaGnome]

I'm sorry I've been bad. Time out corner for me.

[Bombastinator]

33 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

I'm sorry I've been bad. Time out corner for me.

This appears to be your first comment on this topic.  Since there is no referent i will make up my own and simply say that it’s just not right to do that to cucumbers. Or jello.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Bombastinator

[heimdali]

8 hours ago, 10leej said:

Why not take this feedback upstream into gnome rather than here where gnome developers will never look?

Since I'm (still) using Fedora, I have made a bug report in their bug tracker a while ago.  That would be the right place for it.  So far nobody cares, and it'll probably be closed once 36 goes out of life.  Since Fedora is extremely hostile against their users, I have finally deprecated it and am done with making bug reports with Fedora.  It's a pity because they make a good distribution, but they've been hostile for years now on all channels, and I'm too fed up with these retards.

[heimdali]

3 hours ago, Thomas4 said:

The Gnome desktop is the Windows Bob in the Linux world.

No, that would be KDE.  Gnome is way too ideosyncratic and has still a long way to go.  Evolution even finally has evolved into the best email client I can currently find for my purposes.

 

If there was Fvwm for wayland, I'd use that, but there isn't.  KDE is sluggish and buggy.  So I'm stuck with gnome and it's actually pretty good now.

 

[Thomas4]

No, KDE is the Linux version of Windows 1, with too much eye candy.

 

Oh well you can switch to the grey side and use BSD!

[heimdali]

16 minutes ago, Thomas4 said:

No, KDE is the Linux version of Windows 1, with too much eye candy.

 

Oh well you can switch to the grey side and use BSD!

KDE isn't that buggy and doesn't have too much eye candy.  Did you ever try Windows 1?

 

What do you mean by gray side?  FreeBSD is really cool, the only reason I quit using it any further is that their NFS implementation sucks.  For what I'm using it, it works fine since years now.  Of course, if I had used it further, I might have found more disadvantages.  I'm kind of still using it because OPNsense is based on it, and it's awesome.

 

[Thomas4]

Yes, I beta-tried Windows 1.0. And the only thing buggier that Windows in the inside of an ant hill - but unlike Windows, the insects DO know what they're doing.

 

By the grey side, I only meant that not many people know it exists, even though they interact with it every day while their online.

 

Haven't tried BSD in at least 10 years, too many problems back then that have been fixed by the cleanliness of the default XFCE desktop stole my heart, hyperbole, I know but.. And Arch, ignoring the trolls, who have a button that enters in RTFM, even when the thread was only Hello!

[heimdali]

Hm, I never tried 1.0.  What makes you think that gnome is more buggy than that?  It doesn't even crash.

 

XFCE doesn't go with wayland, does it?  I don't have anything against X11, it's only that I do see the point of replacing it, and like it or not, living in the past seldwhen is a good idea.

 

Someone told me that arch is for masochists.  I tried to install arch twice now, first time it won't boot, probably because I commented out some modules as the manual suggested, second time it turned into a lengthy endevour and I don't remember why and I eventually quit because I wanted to get results.  From what I was told, updates are even worse then they are with Gentoo.  So far, it seems I'll have to go back to Debian, like it or not.

 

[10leej]

13 hours ago, heimdali said:

Since I'm (still) using Fedora, I have made a bug report in their bug tracker a while ago.  That would be the right place for it.  So far nobody cares, and it'll probably be closed once 36 goes out of life.  Since Fedora is extremely hostile against their users, I have finally deprecated it and am done with making bug reports with Fedora.  It's a pity because they make a good distribution, but they've been hostile for years now on all channels, and I'm too fed up with these retards.

No actually that is not the right place. You need to report this in Gnomes bug tracker.

Also, hostile how?

[heimdali]

Gnome might say it's a Fedora issue.  Or is the sound problem a pipewire issue?  Or is it a gnome issue because pipewire is required?  That's something for Fedora and gnome and pipewire to work out amongst each other.

 

I'm not hostile, it's merely the way it is.

 

[10leej]

14 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Gnome might say it's a Fedora issue

What you described here is a nothing but gnome issues, if they say that then your wording your arguments poorly.

 

15 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Or is the sound problem a pipewire issue?  Or is it a gnome issue because pipewire is required?

I honestly can't tell what your audio issue even actually is. you mean this?

 

On 10/26/2022 at 9:45 PM, heimdali said:

Yet as long as there's no audio when the 2nd monitor is enabled and as long as I can't enable and disable the 2nd monitor at will without issues, I'm still stuck with a single monitor.  Support for multiple monitors is 24 years old and it still doesn't work.

So when you turn on the 2nd moniutor it's a complete loss of system audio?

 

19 minutes ago, heimdali said:

I'm not hostile, it's merely the way it is

I didn't say you were being hostile. I'm literally asking how Fedora and Gnome are being hostile to their users.

[heimdali]

1 hour ago, 10leej said:

What you described here is a nothing but gnome issues, if they say that then your wording your arguments poorly.

It wouldn't be an argument, only stating the facts.

1 hour ago, 10leej said:

I honestly can't tell what your audio issue even actually is. you mean this?

 

So when you turn on the 2nd moniutor it's a complete loss of system audio?

No, when I turn the 2nd monitor on, nothing happens.  When I try to enable the 2nd monitor in the settings, that monitor goes out of standby, says there's no signal and goes back to standby and the settings say it's disabled.  To get the 2nd monitor to work, I need to delete a file called monitor.xml (in ~./config, IIRC), log out of the session --- which basically means a reboot because there may still be stuff running after I log out which was a bug that prevented you from logging back in altogether after a while ago --- and log back in and if I'm lucky, I can enable the 2nd monitor.  That monitor is then stuck with whatever windows I move over, no matter to which workspace I switch, which makes it amlost totally useless.  Once the 2nd monitor is enabled, I don't have any audio but a 2nd audio device in the settings, and it doesn't matter which I pick, there's no audio.  It's possible to get audio back by disabling the 2nd monitor and then switch it to Mirror instead of Join (Join doesn't work as the monitor is stuck on some workspace or whatever it is instead of joining the displaying of the workspaces like the 1st monitor does.).  When I do that, the 2nd monitor goes out of standby, says there's no signal, goes back to standby and I have audio again if I'm lucky.

 

Audio goes over display port to the 1st monitor which has speakers connected to it --- when it goes.  Why is there no option --- and that option should be the default --- to make the audio output stick to the device it's supposed to go to.  Who disconnects their speakers and connects them to a different monitor every time when an additional monitor is finally enabled?  The 2nd monitor doesn't even have a connector for my speakers.

1 hour ago, 10leej said:

I didn't say you were being hostile. I'm literally asking how Fedora and Gnome are being hostile to their users.

Gnome hasn't been hostile.  Fedora is hostile in that they use excessive censorship against users that say things they don't want to hear on their mailing list and their forum, and to the last bug report I made, I got an impertinent and hostile response which makes me really wonder who that person thinks who they are.  I said things they don't want to hear ...  Their behaviour is fascistical, and after the response to my bug report I can't even tell anymore if they're fascists, nazis or bullies or any combination thereof.  That is something that I can't condone, certainly can't support and with which I'm finally fed up with.  So I deprecated Fedora altogether and will switch to another distribution as soon as possible.

 

Bug reports are a contribution, and they have come so far that you get kicked right into your face for it by basically being told that you're an idiot who doesn't know what you're talking about and that have to shut up about it.  This was a new development, and unfortunately the only thing I can do is deprecate them and, if I should publish some software I have created, put into the license that it must not be used with anything Fedora.

 

You can read their mission statement.  It says, or used to say, something like that they want to lead the development of open source software.  When you read that, it seems harmless enough.  When you experience their attitude and their hostility, you can see it says that they're the kings of the world and nobody dare to interfere or have a different opinion.

 

Sure, the world and the internet has become more and more hostile over the years, which is bad enough.  But that doesn't make it alright, and it doesn't mean that you could treat people like that.  Fortunately, this forum is an exception, and I appreciate that very much.

 

[10leej]

1 hour ago, heimdali said:

Fedora is hostile in that they use excessive censorship against users that say things they don't want to hear on their mailing list and their forum, and to the last bug report I made, I got an impertinent and hostile response which makes me really wonder who that person thinks who they are.  I said things they don't want to hear

Link?

[heimdali]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2114677