Google Echo? Apple Nest? Amazon Homepod? No problem for Matter!

[Arika]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to water my plants when I am on holiday?

what IOT device does this?

 

Timed sprinklers have been a thing for years as well.

 

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

• Why shouldn't I be able to check a security camera when I am at work?
• Why shouldn't my alarm be able to send notifications to an alarm center if someone breaks in?
• Why shouldn't I be able to get a notification if someone opens my front gate when nobody should be entering my house?

A security system is very different from what most people see as "IOT devices" and you know that.

 

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to check "did I turn the lights off in the basement" when I am on a train?

because you're (presumably) a responsible adult. how many times have you encountered this where you needed to turn lights off remotely because you forgot?

 

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to monitor and configure all my things from one centralized place rather than one for the things that doesn't "need" to be connected online, and one for the things that in your opinion have a legitimate reason to be connected?

You can, use the same app for all i care, just don't have devices that shouldn't need to be connected to the internet until you get home, where it makes more sense to have access to them.

 

for example, the Nest thermostat, it CAN function without internet, but only manually at the device itself ....why? why can't i control it from my phone on the local network without it being connected to the internet?

 

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to configure and set these things up while they are still in their boxes on a delivery truck on their way to my home? Why should I need to wait for them to arrive before configuring them? 

How to you plan to configure them while they are in the delivery truck....without internet? that's just grasping at straws for an excuse.

 

41 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Who said anything about Internet? .

 

Me, that's the whole reason for this back and forth. every single one of my posts has been

"why does everything need to be connected to the internet?" and everyone is arguing against me thinking i'm anti smart home, no i'm anti internet connections when they aren't needed.

So far everything (except for that one video you posted and the security system (which i wasn't arguing against)) that has been brought up, shouldn't require internet, yet these IOT companies force it upon you so they have have ultimate control over your devices, you have to do thing their way. Not to mention the constant news articles that keep popping up with "<IOT company> now introducing subscription, failure to pay will disable <device/feature> that used to be free"

 

why can't i have smart devices that can just be controlled from my local network without losing features when it's not something that should ever require internet"

 

Quote

Seriously, I feel like a lot of you people are really hung up on this "hurr durr it shouldn't connect to the Internet" argument and yet this news has nothing to do with that. This is for interoperability between devices, so that they can talk between each other. This is not a standard for reaching the Internet

????

Quote

Matter's goals are to simplify the IOT and smart home space by making it easier to adopt new devices, make sure that they work and on top is supposed to increase security by enabling devices to work entirely on private networks without being connected to the internet.

 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

1) Some things does depending on how you want them to work.

2) Who said anything about Internet? Seriously, I feel like a lot of you people are really hung up on this "hurr durr it shouldn't connect to the Internet" argument and yet this news has nothing to do with that. This is for interoperability between devices, so that they can talk between each other. This is not a standard for reaching the Internet.

 

 

I feel like a lot of people these days goes around with a strong and irrational hatred for something, and as soon as that thing is mentioned they just have to shout and scream about the thing they don't like, regardless of whether its relevant or not.

I get it, you don't like that some IoT devices requires an Internet connection. What does that have to do with this news topic? 

 

 

Edit: Just noticed that someone did imply that these things requires Internet access for a reason. I can understand the thermostat but it is a bit harder to justify the lights, but I still see some benefits to it as described in the next post.

May depend on the definition of “things” here.  There is thing as in “something to control the temperature of my house” vs “this particular home thermostat thing only works with internet”

Edited October 7, 2022 by Bombastinator

[suicidalfranco]

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to water my plants when I am on holiday

cause those can be set on schedule, no internet required

21 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to check a security camera when I am at work

wouldnt clasify IPCam as IoT device, but the best counter argument i can use compared to traditional IPCams is them becoming bricks the moment the parent company goes bankrupt, and that will forever be a valid counter argument for every IoT device

33 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't my alarm be able to send notifications to an alarm center if someone breaks in?

would put on the same class as IPCams

34 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to check "did I turn the lights off in the basement" when I am on a train

Unless it's an icandescent light bulb, it's not the end of the world

39 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to get a notification if someone opens my front gate when nobody should be entering my house

Same as IPCams

39 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to monitor and configure all my things from one centralized place rather than one for the things that doesn't "need" to be connected online, and one for the things that in your opinion have a legitimate reason to be connected

You can, and it doesn't require an internet connection

41 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why shouldn't I be able to configure and set these things up while they are still in their boxes on a delivery truck on their way to my home? Why should I need to wait for them to arrive before configuring them

Cause you're going to unbox it yourself anyway and i wouldn't trust a third party to set things up for me in the first place

 

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

cause those can be set on schedule, no internet required

wouldnt clasify IPCam as IoT device, but the best counter argument i can use compared to traditional IPCams is them becoming bricks the moment the parent company goes bankrupt, and that will forever be a valid counter argument for every IoT device

would put on the same class as IPCams

Unless it's an icandescent light bulb, it's not the end of the world

Same as IPCams

You can, and it doesn't require an internet connection

Cause you're going to unbox it yourself anyway and i wouldn't trust a third party to set things up for me in the first place

 

Security cameras can be local and run through a pc which connects to the internet.  It is possible to make a device smart without having its own little outdated and vulnerable computer in it.  Then you get a device with an upgradable and current firewall that is independent of whether a given company is around and producing updates.  This may require a rather fancy PC though.  IPKVM could be needed for example.  The trick is to get something that can only be connected to through an easily protected system.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Bombastinator

[suicidalfranco]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Security cameras can be local and run through a pc which connects to the internet.  It is possible to make a device smart without having its own little outdated and vulnerable computer in it.  Then you get a device with an upgradable and current firewall that is independent of whether a given company is around and producing updates.  This may require a rather fancy PC though.  IPKVM could be needed for example.  The trick is to get something that can only be connected to through an easily protected system.

Hence why i said IPcams or a class of their own, separated from IoT devices. And that's true for all of the home security gear. They've existed without the devices themselves being the one to connect to the internet. 

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

Hence why i said IPcams or a class of their own, separated from IoT devices. And that's true for all of the home security gear. They've existed without the devices themselves being the one to connect to the internet. 

They can be other than IOT devices.  It’s important that they use an open standard though.  If the software on the computer is proprietary it can have the same problems.  This is how you see companies running weird outdated OSes even though they shouldn’t.  It’s also one of the things that VMs are for though

Edited October 7, 2022 by Bombastinator

[divito]

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

So you're insisting normal light bulbs are outdated? I still don't see the comparison you're making lol.

Having a remote connection feature means a normal light bulb is outdated? How?

 

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

A normal thermostat never needs updates

Well this is simply false. Non-smart programmable thermostats still have firmware, it's just not user or tech updateable. And most issues that arise in thermostats end up with the homeowner or HVAC tech simply replacing the unit for a newer model with new features and new, updated firmware. 

 

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

I can use my phone to check the weather and adjust the thermostat accordingly myself

Well, props to your dedication. I, like many others, don't have the routine of checking the weather and manually adjusting a thermostat based on the temperature variability for each day. 
 

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

every other "convenience" feature is also a way for companies to mine data and utility companies to not allow you to adjust your own thermostat.

Considering utility companies used non consumer-friendly devices before, I'm okay with having the ability to update or tweak my devices without potentially paying for service calls.
 

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

As for light bulbs I don't see the need for internet connected light bulbs, the only reason I can see is turning them on or off while away for security, but that shouldn't require light bulbs to be connected to a wifi router.

Yes, turning them off or on for energy saving or security is basically the only reason. 
 

12 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

It isn't fear mongering as IOT devices usually have terrible security and even if there was a standard I wouldn't expect companies to actually care about making secure devices while still violating consumer privacy.

It is fear mongering because what can be done with certain smart devices is completely based on ignorance. Essentially every single IoT device needs to be accessed physically to meaningfully be exploited. Someone accessing your smart bulb remotely isn't going to magically gain access to your computer. And if you're using your smart devices with network security best practices, then this point is even more moot.
 

 

10 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

none of those "features" require a constant internet connection

I never said they did. There are some devices that can benefit from being able to reach the internet, but there are many smart devices that simply need to be on a network to be useable in a smart way. You don't have to have that network reach the internet...

 

8 hours ago, Arika S said:

5 buttons is too complicated compared to setting up the smart features, connecting it to your network, downloading an app, being connected to the internet?

Have you ever tried programming a week worth of thermostat changes? Plugging and connecting a smart device is much faster.
 

8 hours ago, Arika S said:

....who needs to schedule lightbulbs to turn on and off?

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose. For someone in a large house, or with multiple children, if you're a parent that is getting them ready for school, and then having to leave for work as a daily chaotic routine every morning, knowing the lights will turn on in your children's rooms to ensure they're awake at a certain time, or all the lights turning off after you're gone is way more efficient and useful. That's just one example.
 

8 hours ago, Arika S said:

education and standards don't fix the vulnerabilities that exist and not to mention that IOT devices are more likely to NOT be updated and therefore vulnerabilities are more liekly to stick around

With that logic, you'd never use a router because of all the zero days and other exploits.
 

8 hours ago, Arika S said:

people complain about needing to update windows every now and again, but they're expected to keep their fridge, light switches, hub, smart assistants, lightbulbs etc all updated so you don't have all these weaknesses in your network?

like how you can access an internal network from said lightbulbs

 

How is a consumer "expected" to do any of that? And as above, are you expecting people to update their home routers when vulnerabilities are found? It's okay for people to use exploitable routers and not update them, but smart devices are off limits?

What they conveniently leave out from that video is that they were already on the same network and had physical access to the device. People mistakenly think someone accessing their light bulb means they can get on your computer from Russia or something. That's not how it works.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, divito said:

Having a remote connection feature means a normal light bulb is outdated? How?

 

Well this is simply false. Non-smart programmable thermostats still have firmware, it's just not user or tech updateable. And most issues that arise in thermostats end up with the homeowner or HVAC tech simply replacing the unit for a newer model with new features and new, updated firmware. 

 

Well, props to your dedication. I, like many others, don't have the routine of checking the weather and manually adjusting a thermostat based on the temperature variability for each day. 
 

Considering utility companies used non consumer-friendly devices before, I'm okay with having the ability to update or tweak my devices without potentially paying for service calls.
 

Yes, turning them off or on for energy saving or security is basically the only reason. 
 

It is fear mongering because what can be done with certain smart devices is completely based on ignorance. Essentially every single IoT device needs to be accessed physically to meaningfully be exploited. Someone accessing your smart bulb remotely isn't going to magically gain access to your computer. And if you're using your smart devices with network security best practices, then this point is even more moot.
 

 

I never said they did. There are some devices that can benefit from being able to reach the internet, but there are many smart devices that simply need to be on a network to be useable in a smart way. You don't have to have that network reach the internet...

 

Have you ever tried programming a week worth of thermostat changes? Plugging and connecting a smart device is much faster.
 

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose. For someone in a large house, or with multiple children, if you're a parent that is getting them ready for school, and then having to leave for work as a daily chaotic routine every morning, knowing the lights will turn on in your children's rooms to ensure they're awake at a certain time, or all the lights turning off after you're gone is way more efficient and useful. That's just one example.
 

With that logic, you'd never use a router because of all the zero days and other exploits.
 

How is a consumer "expected" to do any of that? And as above, are you expecting people to update their home routers when vulnerabilities are found? It's okay for people to use exploitable routers and not update them, but smart devices are off limits?

What they conveniently leave out from that video is that they were already on the same network and had physical access to the device. People mistakenly think someone accessing their light bulb means they can get on your computer from Russia or something. That's not how it works.

 

 

Who says an easily pwnable router is OK?   This isn’t a question of can or can’t be done.  It has BEEN done.  

[Senzelian]

18 hours ago, Arika S said:

what most people see as "IOT devices"

What something actually is should always be the base for a healthy discussion instead of what people see in it.

 

[Origami Cactus]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:37 PM, LAwLz said:

Manually setting on and off times is not the same as automatically adapting depending on the weather and current price of heating.

It's like saying we don't need computers because we got typewriters. Two very different things. 

Here is an example of what I am talking about, and I strongly recommend you watch the full video with an open mind before dismissing it:

 

 

 

If we are arguing about the whole Internet requirement thing then the things I brought up are bad examples. But let's turn the question around.

Why shouldn't these things be connected? Yes I know about the security risks, but those are quite frankly overblown a lot of times but should hopefully get better as time goes on.

I agree with that point, that curiously got ignored by all the IOT haters.

There are massive savings to be had with a connected thermostat/heating system, and especially at the times of energy crisis in Europe it is important.

Yes some of you may have the time to set the thermostat 10x a day every day to take advantage of the changing weather and the energy prices that go up-down-left-sideways every day, but normal people could just use a smart thermostat for that- YES it needs to be connected to the internet for reading the newest weather raports and energy market prices for the next day, you can send it info via fax.

But again I recommend watching the excellent video, even if your country clearly isn't in an energy crisis right now.