Games and Guis with Python (Kivy) Am I wasting my time?

[cmndr]

6 hours ago, Wictorian said:

I would like to get into research however how good are the wages? That's really my main metric.

Research at FAANG...

If you're able to get into... VERY GOOD. 300-800k a year in all likelihood.

In practice they expect either a PhD or an MS and for you to walk on water. It's not the easiest thing to get into.

[Wictorian]

55 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Research at FAANG...

If you're able to get into... VERY GOOD. 300-800k a year in all likelihood.

In practice they expect either a PhD or an MS and for you to walk on water. It's not the easiest thing to get into.

I won't be getting a degree btw.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, Wictorian said:

I won't be getting a degree btw.

I see you are 16 years old. You still have a quite a bit of years ahead before you have to worry about what you want to do with your life.

 

Are you living inside an EU country at the moment? If not and without a college degree, you can pretty much forget about immigrating to an European country like Switzerland, you won’t be getting a skilled based immigration visa without any educational credentials.

 

you can be a software engineer at google and other top tech companies without a degree and as your first gig but you need to be an absolute genius to pull that off. If you are this gifted, just go start your own company. Steve Jobs did it, bill gates did it, and so did a few others. 
 

 

[cmndr]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:19 PM, Wictorian said:

I won't be getting a degree btw.

So I listed "fancy" 300-800k figures... without a degree you might want to slash off a zero, at least when you first start out. So 30-80k instead. After that you're basically working to jump up a bunch of steps. Making your own path is a lot harder than using one that already exists (university recruiting pipelines). Also, as hinted at, don't plan on being able to migrate much of anywhere. HARD GATES on immigrant visas based on degrees.

 

So I've met people without degrees at FAANGs... even briefly dated a chick whose brother (no degree) worked at Google and Netflix.

Practically speaking it's nearly impossible to get into top companies without jumping through flaming hoops. This is even with a Masters degree from a "dream school"

 

Degrees show that you can sit down, shut up and do what you're told and survive... AND that you can navigate a bureaucracy (there's BS to deal with in academia) both of which are basically "work place light." At the top places EVERYONE is pretty darn smart and motivated. It's not enough to be smart and motivated and you either NEED to be able to navigate bureaucracy or you need crazy luck. A lot of people in FAANGs worked at places like McKinsey and BCG (basically mini CEO factories - they teach you how to navigate bureaucracy) that are just as hard to get into as the FAANGs themselves (just on different criteria).

 

If your goal is to break into ANY company (not an AMAZING company, ANY company) without a degree you have much smaller room for error. You'd want to have a great portfolio of projects (open source stuff helps), maybe a successfully monetized app, a referral, etc.

 

Think of it from a risk perspective. Roles that pay well are basically spending extra $$$ as an insurance policy that you won't mess up and cost them a few million dollars. In this case you're guilty until proven innocent (so evidence that you can sit down, shut up, handle some level of politics, have good judgement, etc.).

 

It's relatively hard to get started in terms of establishing reputation and caliber. Undergrad is kind of a "hack" to get big names on your resume (the school itself + whatever internships you do) and access to people who in the next 2-10 years will "have their stuff together" and who will give you referrals to places.
 

---
Here's a sampling of places I interviewed at

Various internships during undergrad - used on campus recruiting AND/OR referrals from classmates who had the same internship previously
Interview at first full time job at Fortune 500 company - on campus recruiting at my undergrad university
Interview at F500 - former manager referred me

Interview at large gaming company - recruiter reached out, recruiter mentioned "big names" on linkedin profile
Interview at Google - referral from friend in undergrad

Interview at Apple - I needed TWO referrals. One was from a coworker at Google (no interview), the other was from a classmate from grad school
Interview at Facebook - referral from friend in grad school
Interview at Amazon - referral from friend in grad school, recruiter mentioned "big names" on resume

Interviews at multiple "hot startups" - people in a Google alumni chat group reached out to me without me prompting

Misc interviews at "hot companies - recruiters reached out based on "brand names" on my linkedin

Interview at F500 - former manager referred me


There's some level of "momentum" required.

[Wictorian]

59 minutes ago, wasab said:

I see you are 16 years old. You still have a quite a bit of years ahead before you have to worry about what you want to do with your life.

 

Are you living inside an EU country at the moment? If not and without a college degree, you can pretty much forget about immigrating to an European country like Switzerland, you won’t be getting a skilled based immigration visa without any educational credentials.

 

you can be a software engineer at google and other top tech companies without a degree and as your first gig but you need to be an absolute genius to pull that off. If you are this gifted, just go start your own company. Steve Jobs did it, bill gates did it, and so did a few others. 
 

 

Switzerland isnt part of EU

[Wictorian]

39 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Degrees show that you can sit down, shut up and do what you're told and survive... AND that you can navigate a bureaucracy (there's BS to deal with in academia) both of which are basically "work place light."

I cant do this. 

 

 

What about going to university at Switzerland? 

 

Well Any job in Switzerland is actually ok.

[cmndr]

16 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

I cant do this.

School and work have their differences.

With that said, there is a correlation. I definitely feel that grad school is better than undergrad (specialized in something that you're actually interested in).

 

This is a great book that covers a lot of "this is the stuff that you should do" - https://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Rules-Secrets-Starting-Career/dp/1647820448

 

16 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

What about going to university at Switzerland? 

 

Well Any job in Switzerland is actually ok.

It's definitely more doable... I'm not familiar with European systems though my general knowledge is that you might save a few thousand dollars. Which is nice but not a big difference in the grand scheme of things. If your goal is to work in the US, the degree might carry less weight (hurray, you saved $2000 on tuition but you get paid $20,000 less your first year of work and the next 3 years... oops), though there are definitely benefits to 3 year programs.

 

If the concern is "college in the US is expensive" it's not THAT expensive. Median debt is $15,000. Median lifetime earnings for an engineer is around $5 million. This is 0.3%. If you're from a poor background, tuition at state universities is usually mostly or fully covered by grants. It's mostly the upper classes that pay $$$. Community college can also be a useful path. In California, for example, you can do 2 years at a community college, get good grades and literally have a transfer guarantee (pass X classes with Y grades) to places like UC Davis, UCSB and UC Irvine along with prioritized (not guaranteed) placement at Berkeley and UCLA.

[Wictorian]

10 minutes ago, cmndr said:

School and work have their differences.

With that said, there is a correlation. I definitely feel that grad school is better than undergrad (specialized in something that you're actually interested in).

 

This is a great book that covers a lot of "this is the stuff that you should do" - https://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Rules-Secrets-Starting-Career/dp/1647820448

 

It's definitely more doable... I'm not familiar with European systems though my general knowledge is that you might save a few thousand dollars. Which is nice but not a big difference in the grand scheme of things. If your goal is to work in the US, the degree might carry less weight (hurray, you saved $2000 on tuition but you get paid $20,000 less your first year of work and the next 3 years... oops), though there are definitely benefits to 3 year programs.

 

If the concern is "college in the US is expensive" it's not THAT expensive. Median debt is $15,000. Median lifetime earnings for an engineer is around $5 million. This is 0.3%. If you're from a poor background, tuition at state universities is usually mostly or fully covered by grants. It's mostly the upper classes that pay $$$. Community college can also be a useful path. In California, for example, you can do 2 years at a community college, get good grades and literally have a transfer guarantee (pass X classes with Y grades) to places like UC Davis, UCSB and UC Irvine along with prioritized (not guaranteed) placement at Berkeley and UCLA.

Switzerland has similar wages and better quality if life and cheaper prices and I dont like the US and dont wanna work or live there. 

 

I havent done much research about this but I figure migrating to Switzerland shouldnt be too hard as there are many immigrants there.

 

I think it will have a way better working environment than here too. Even if I dont agree politically with Facebook and Google, I think their environments are healthy too.

[wasab]

3 hours ago, Wictorian said:

Switzerland isnt part of EU

They are part of the schengen area and EU citizens can work in switzerland freely. 

 

Quote

cheaper prices 

Nope, you will be disappointed. Their cost of living is one of the highest. A big mac there is actually more expensive than the United States when ranked on the big mac index

[cmndr]

4 hours ago, Wictorian said:

Switzerland has similar wages and better quality if life and cheaper prices and I dont like the US and dont wanna work or live there. 

 

I havent done much research about this but I figure migrating to Switzerland shouldnt be too hard as there are many immigrants there.

Zurich is as expensive as San Francisco. https://www.expatica.com/ch/moving/about/cost-of-living-in-switzerland-1181681/
 

Quote

• 80% more expensive than in Brussels
• 74% more expensive than in Munich
• 60% more expensive than in Paris
• 56% more expensive than in London
• 28% more expensive than in New York

 

They do have lower taxes though. But you'd need to pay SOME tax to the US or renounce your citizenship.

Overall taxes in Switzerland could end up similar vs just living in the US in SF or New York after accounting for dual taxation (less so the case if you're not making SWE incomes, moreso the case if you are).

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-living-abroad-owe-us-tax.html

For context, a Big Mac is $6.98 in Zurich
https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/

Overall the same amount of money only goes about 80% as far in Switzerland vs the US.
 

4 hours ago, Wictorian said:

I think it will have a way better working environment than here too. Even if I dont agree politically with Facebook and Google, I think their environments are healthy too.

This is more of a Europe in general thing but the joke at Google is "Hey, I get paid half as much in Berlin but I get an extra 2 weeks of vacation" to which the American responds "If I switch to 60% time I still get paid more and I get an extra 18 weeks of vacation.

 

 

I'm not going to say DON'T work in Switzerland, there's a lot of GOOD things about it... but there is SOME truth to the adage "what do you call a successful [European]? A [European] American."

The reasons to live elsewhere would be to get a different experience, to learn about the world, various bits of enjoyment, to make yourself more eligible for future leadership roles in large corporations, etc. it's NOT to come out ahead financially as a software engineer. Coming out ahead financially is why you'd move to TO America, not leave it.

 

 

-----

 

I know it's a trendy meme to shit on America for its flaws. A lot of these critiques are based on truth. Just be aware that a BIG chunk of that is pushed up by Russian troll farms. The first week of the war in Ukraine... a lot of the "America = Evil" posts magically... weren't there. Russia was a bit distracted.

 

There IS a reason why Linus jokes about Canadian currency being worthless compared to American dollars for example (my trip to Vancouver showed me that food stock was generally 10-40% more expensive than in Los Angeles or San Francisco). Europe is NOT cheap unless you're in the former Soviet Bloc. My 100lbs girlfriend lost weight while in France. A baguette cost a stupid amount.

There's some pretty awesome places in Europe too but it is not the promised land. Every place has its pros and cons. Europe is catching up, but outside of a few countries (a third the size of the Los Angeles metro area), it's poorer. Those countries are oil rich (Norway), tax havens (Luxembourg) or are tiny finance hubs (Switzerland). These places make up something like 2% (a guess) of the population of Europe. America's poorest state, Louisiana is on par with Germany.

 

https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-nearly-every-european-country

[Wictorian]

9 hours ago, wasab said:

They are part of the schengen area and EU citizens can work in switzerland freely. 

 

Nope, you will be disappointed. Their cost of living is one of the highest. A big mac there is actually more expensive than the United States when ranked on the big mac index

If so I will be getting an EU passport soon. 

 

I mean it is cheaper compared to Silicon Valley. (just a little bit cheaper)

[Wictorian]

9 hours ago, cmndr said:

Zurich is as expensive as San Francisco. https://www.expatica.com/ch/moving/about/cost-of-living-in-switzerland-1181681/
 

 

They do have lower taxes though. But you'd need to pay SOME tax to the US or renounce your citizenship.

Overall taxes in Switzerland could end up similar vs just living in the US in SF or New York after accounting for dual taxation (less so the case if you're not making SWE incomes, moreso the case if you are).

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-living-abroad-owe-us-tax.html

For context, a Big Mac is $6.98 in Zurich
https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/

Overall the same amount of money only goes about 80% as far in Switzerland vs the US.
 

This is more of a Europe in general thing but the joke at Google is "Hey, I get paid half as much in Berlin but I get an extra 2 weeks of vacation" to which the American responds "If I switch to 60% time I still get paid more and I get an extra 18 weeks of vacation.

 

 

I'm not going to say DON'T work in Switzerland, there's a lot of GOOD things about it... but there is SOME truth to the adage "what do you call a successful [European]? A [European] American."

The reasons to live elsewhere would be to get a different experience, to learn about the world, various bits of enjoyment, to make yourself more eligible for future leadership roles in large corporations, etc. it's NOT to come out ahead financially as a software engineer. Coming out ahead financially is why you'd move to TO America, not leave it.

 

 

-----

 

I know it's a trendy meme to shit on America for its flaws. A lot of these critiques are based on truth. Just be aware that a BIG chunk of that is pushed up by Russian troll farms. The first week of the war in Ukraine... a lot of the "America = Evil" posts magically... weren't there. Russia was a bit distracted.

 

There IS a reason why Linus jokes about Canadian currency being worthless compared to American dollars for example (my trip to Vancouver showed me that food stock was generally 10-40% more expensive than in Los Angeles or San Francisco). Europe is NOT cheap unless you're in the former Soviet Bloc. My 100lbs girlfriend lost weight while in France. A baguette cost a stupid amount.

There's some pretty awesome places in Europe too but it is not the promised land. Every place has its pros and cons. Europe is catching up, but outside of a few countries (a third the size of the Los Angeles metro area), it's poorer. Those countries are oil rich (Norway), tax havens (Luxembourg) or are tiny finance hubs (Switzerland). These places make up something like 2% (a guess) of the population of Europe. America's poorest state, Louisiana is on par with Germany.

 

https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-nearly-every-european-country

I know Europe is similarly messed up compared to USA. To clarify I dont live in the US. It would be still valid to move there but thats not what I wanna do. About money I am ok with Switzerland. 

 

Can you please eloborate on why a successful Swiss is a Swiss American? I get why this might be true for Europe but I really think Swizterland is a different place. 

[Wictorian]

9 hours ago, cmndr said:

Zurich is as expensive as San Francisco. https://www.expatica.com/ch/moving/about/cost-of-living-in-switzerland-1181681/
 

 

They do have lower taxes though. But you'd need to pay SOME tax to the US or renounce your citizenship.

Overall taxes in Switzerland could end up similar vs just living in the US in SF or New York after accounting for dual taxation (less so the case if you're not making SWE incomes, moreso the case if you are).

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-us-citizens-living-abroad-owe-us-tax.html

For context, a Big Mac is $6.98 in Zurich
https://www.statista.com/statistics/274326/big-mac-index-global-prices-for-a-big-mac/

Overall the same amount of money only goes about 80% as far in Switzerland vs the US.
 

This is more of a Europe in general thing but the joke at Google is "Hey, I get paid half as much in Berlin but I get an extra 2 weeks of vacation" to which the American responds "If I switch to 60% time I still get paid more and I get an extra 18 weeks of vacation.

 

 

I'm not going to say DON'T work in Switzerland, there's a lot of GOOD things about it... but there is SOME truth to the adage "what do you call a successful [European]? A [European] American."

The reasons to live elsewhere would be to get a different experience, to learn about the world, various bits of enjoyment, to make yourself more eligible for future leadership roles in large corporations, etc. it's NOT to come out ahead financially as a software engineer. Coming out ahead financially is why you'd move to TO America, not leave it.

 

 

-----

 

I know it's a trendy meme to shit on America for its flaws. A lot of these critiques are based on truth. Just be aware that a BIG chunk of that is pushed up by Russian troll farms. The first week of the war in Ukraine... a lot of the "America = Evil" posts magically... weren't there. Russia was a bit distracted.

 

There IS a reason why Linus jokes about Canadian currency being worthless compared to American dollars for example (my trip to Vancouver showed me that food stock was generally 10-40% more expensive than in Los Angeles or San Francisco). Europe is NOT cheap unless you're in the former Soviet Bloc. My 100lbs girlfriend lost weight while in France. A baguette cost a stupid amount.

There's some pretty awesome places in Europe too but it is not the promised land. Every place has its pros and cons. Europe is catching up, but outside of a few countries (a third the size of the Los Angeles metro area), it's poorer. Those countries are oil rich (Norway), tax havens (Luxembourg) or are tiny finance hubs (Switzerland). These places make up something like 2% (a guess) of the population of Europe. America's poorest state, Louisiana is on par with Germany.

 

https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-nearly-every-european-country

I know Europe is similarly messed up compared to USA. To clarify I dont live in the US. It would be still valid to move there but thats not what I wanna do. About money I am ok with Switzerland. 

 

Can you please eloborate on why a successful Swiss is a Swiss American? I get why this might be true for Europe but I really think Swizterland is a different place. 

[wasab]

 

5 hours ago, Wictorian said:

I mean it is cheaper compared to Silicon Valley. (just a little bit cheaper)

It doesnt mean much when switzerland is not headquater to all the biggest and richest tech companies that pay top money like silicon valley is. By the way, the gdp of New York City(1.5 trillion) alone is over 2x the gdp of entire switzerland. If New York City is a country, it would be among the biggest economy in the world  by itself.

 

There is simply more wealth here in the united states. Yeah, the wealth ineuqality is disgusting here but the tech/engineer people generally fall under the extreame rich more than the extream poor end of the spectrum, assuming if they arent memebers of the middle class. 

[Wictorian]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

 

It doesnt mean much when switzerland is not headquater to all the biggest and richest tech companies that pay top money like silicon valley is. By the way, the gdp of New York City(1.5 trillion) alone is over 2x the gdp of entire switzerland. If New York City is a country, it would be among the biggest economy in the world  by itself.

 

There is simply more wealth here in the united states. Yeah, the wealth ineuqality is disgusting here but the tech/engineer people generally fall under the extreame rich more than the extream poor end of the spectrum, assuming if they arent memebers of the middle class. 

Ok but as far as I know you would be similarly rich in Switzerland and USA. No?

[wasab]

3 hours ago, Wictorian said:

Ok but as far as I know you would be similarly rich in Switzerland and USA. No?

you can but not by coding. silicon valley will blow switzerland out of the waters in terms of the money they pay to software developers, esepcially after taking vested stock options and profit sharing compensation structures into account.

[cmndr]

10 hours ago, Wictorian said:

Can you please eloborate on why a successful Swiss is a Swiss American? I get why this might be true for Europe but I really think Swizterland is a different place. 

This is definitely LESS the case with Switzerland. Switzerland is about as rich as the US. Similar level of opportunities. At the very least the same pay for the same job at Google. Not sure about how common those opportunities are though.

 

But let's use Germany as an example. The percentage of households with 100,000 USD disposable income in the US is something like 5x higher than in Germany, (and Denmark and Finland and the Netherlands). The "rich" countries in Europe are generally poorer than the US (though the people at the very bottom in the US aren't as well off).

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2017/04/24/western-europe-middle-class-appendix-e/

 

 

Quote

Ok but as far as I know you would be similarly rich in Switzerland and USA. No?

More or less. Most of my critique of going to Switzerland assumed you were an American. Possibly an American from a lower middle class area, potentially in the South. (for what it's worth in a lot of ways I grew around "working class" mindsets, though I do have some relatives with masters degrees and at this point I'm over educated... I'm kind of a weird mish-mash that doesn't fit in perfectly anywhere, except perhaps around the children of successful immigrants [my girlfriend is the first in her family born in the US]).

It's harder to learn a whole new culture and deal with immigration vs just having things set up for you. Americans are SUPER lucky overall.

One good thing for you is that most of the "really good" jobs are in English, even in other countries. As far as I can tell, your English is perfectly fine. No one cares if you have an accent.
 

Quote

you can but not by coding. silicon valley will blow switzerland out of the waters in terms of the money they pay to software developers, esepcially after taken vested stock options and profit sharing compensation structures into account.

Raw pay is about the same. I've seen internal pay sheets at Google. This includes stocks... and I sure to do love that sweet sweet equity.

 

I don't know HOW MANY opportunities exist. There's a difference between the positions being paid the same and the positions being plentiful.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, cmndr said:

Raw pay is about the same. I've seen internal pay sheets at Google. This includes stocks... and I sure to do love that sweet sweet equity.

 

I don't know HOW MANY opportunities exist. There's a difference between the positions being paid the same and the positions being plentiful.

https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-country/

 

switzerland still lags behind the USA. That is for national average. Silicon valley is greatly above the national average though and faang are even above that. Most European would jaw drop when they learn median total compensation for software engineers at companies like google is 200k and software architects at these companies easily takes home half a million a year. 

 

In any case, if people want to be wealthly, they cant do this by working for a salary. You are a member of the working class if majority of your income comes from your labor, regardless how much you make. Capitalists class derived majority of their incomes from their capitals aka their appreciating and cash generating assets like stock equitites, income producing real estate, bussinesses and other investments, rather than their active labor. Passive income should be what people ought to strive for if they want true financial independence. 

[cmndr]

1 minute ago, wasab said:

https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-country/

 

switzerland still lags behind the USA. That is for national average. Silicon valley is greatly above the national average though and faang are even above that. Most European would jaw drop when they learn median total compensation for software engineers at companies like google is 200k and software architects at these companies easily takes home half a million a year. 

By the time you're looking at "elite" roles national averages start mattering less.
The average or median is mostly determined by local talent. Essentially people born there.

A good chunk of the US's SWEs came from other countries and in a loose sense represent some of the world's best.

[Wictorian]

3 hours ago, wasab said:

you can but not by coding. silicon valley will blow switzerland out of the waters in terms of the money they pay to software developers, esepcially after taking vested stock options and profit sharing compensation structures into account.

Since you mentioned migrating how easy is it to migrate to USA though?

[wasab]

26 minutes ago, cmndr said:

By the time you're looking at "elite" roles national averages start mattering less.
The average or median is mostly determined by local talent. Essentially people born there.

A good chunk of the US's SWEs came from other countries and in a loose sense represent some of the world's best.

Right, except that is not the case. I doubt for example a talented Indian or a Chinese engineer immigrating to Switzerland would ever outearned the alternative silicon valley should they ever immigrate there. I said average but the data is actually the median compensation. If average is taken account, it can vastly skewed the data even higher for the US simply because America has more billionaires and millionaires out of any countries and many of them are engineers by trade. 

 

Part of that is simply due to the scale and capital. A startup tech companies would have much higher chance to get funded

 by ventures capitalists/angel investors compared to the European counterparts. There is just too much money floating around in the United states and over at wallstreet compare to anywhere else in the world. This is why you can see most tech unicorns are dominated by American firms. Heck, most foreign firms would try to get themselves listed on the New York stock exchange should they ever go public even if they have absolutely no business and clients in the country. 

 

 

[Wictorian]

Also what about living in Switzerland but working remotely for the US? Considering every possibilty..

 

I still insist Switzerland is way cheaper than Silicon Valley. Especially housing. Maybe we should just build some house in the Silicon Valley to become rich..

 

[cmndr]

25 minutes ago, Wictorian said:

Since you mentioned migrating how easy is it to migrate to USA though?

Easier if you have a STEM masters degree. Not as easy otherwise. You can still run into issues with that degree.

 

In practice a bunch of people (mostly Chinese) do an undergrad degree in the US then try to get into a company. They have 1 year to get lucky with a visa sponsorship. If that fails they do an MS (some are only 1 year) and try to get lucky again (this time I believe they have 3 attempts to get lucky, which means 3 years of work).

Visa sponsorship is a huge pain in the rear. As a US citizen I'm lucky I don't have to worry about it. I also am NOT an expert so take any immigration advice I have with a grain of salt.

 

My general expectation is that Europe (and Canada) is more open to immigration than the US.

 

Quote

I still insist Switzerland is way cheaper than Silicon Valley. Especially housing. Maybe we should just build some house in the Silicon Valley to become rich..

There are parts of SV, at least as of 2020 when I lived there, which are comparable to Los Angeles. San Francisco can be pretty pricey but Sunnyvale and San Jose aren't as bad. I'm cheap. I lived in a 3 bedroom apartment with 2 engineers. I paid around $1300 USD a month. A coworker living in SF paid around $5000/month for her apartment. She had more space but ehh... Using a $300,000 google income you get something like $15,000 a month after taxes and deductions. I spent around $1500-2000 of that and saved the rest - so basically living off 10% of my after tax income. Free food from work helps. Inexpensive hobbies helps too. I bicycled (free bike from work) and exercised (free gym from work) a lot. If you're frugal and don't need a ton you can retire after 10ish years.

 

[Wictorian]

1 hour ago, cmndr said:

Easier if you have a STEM masters degree. Not as easy otherwise. You can still run into issues with that degree.

 

In practice a bunch of people (mostly Chinese) do an undergrad degree in the US then try to get into a company. They have 1 year to get lucky with a visa sponsorship. If that fails they do an MS (some are only 1 year) and try to get lucky again (this time I believe they have 3 attempts to get lucky, which means 3 years of work).

Visa sponsorship is a huge pain in the rear. As a US citizen I'm lucky I don't have to worry about it. I also am NOT an expert so take any immigration advice I have with a grain of salt.

 

My general expectation is that Europe (and Canada) is more open to immigration than the US.

 

There are parts of SV, at least as of 2020 when I lived there, which are comparable to Los Angeles. San Francisco can be pretty pricey but Sunnyvale and San Jose aren't as bad. I'm cheap. I lived in a 3 bedroom apartment with 2 engineers. I paid around $1300 USD a month. A coworker living in SF paid around $5000/month for her apartment. She had more space but ehh... Using a $300,000 google income you get something like $15,000 a month after taxes and deductions. I spent around $1500-2000 of that and saved the rest - so basically living off 10% of my after tax income. Free food from work helps. Inexpensive hobbies helps too. I bicycled (free bike from work) and exercised (free gym from work) a lot. If you're frugal and don't need a ton you can retire after 10ish years.

 

I'm frugal but actually I like planes. I would like to start a plane business but that would be a lot harder than a tech business and wouldnt achieve much imo.

 

I think US and Switzerland are both okay and I believe here it is not that hard to get a green card (I know many youtubers that got it - before they were famous) but if both are viable then  I think Switzerland has the upper hand.

 

 

 

The best place for software engineers is Sweden though as SWE is both short for Sweden and Software Engineer.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Wictorian said:

Also what about living in Switzerland but working remotely for the US? Considering every possibilty..

 

I still insist Switzerland is way cheaper than Silicon Valley. Especially housing. Maybe we should just build some house in the Silicon Valley to become rich..

 

Swiss citizenship is very valuable. As is US, but it depends on what you want.

If you're not seeking a super luxury lifestyle living in California, I'd say aspire to be a Swiss programmer.

There's a lot of social programs in Switzerland that will protect you and your family, as well as what's considered a much better education system.

You're also very safe being surrounded by large NATO countries.

This isn't to say you cannot move to Switzerland again in the future. Something I've observed is that people really don't relocate though. Unless it's set in stone, you'll probably stay in the country/state you get your first job in.

 

You can be a contractor for US companies if you wish.

It's really up to you; I wouldn't focus on specific companies now.

 

The best advice I can give you to develop your skills is to get good at data structures, math, one language, and do some hacker ranks.

 

If you can build some large scale projects, and also have good skills, you'll do really well.
 

Quote

“When I was a young man, I wanted to change the world.

I found it was difficult to change the world,

so I tried to change my nation.
When I found I couldn’t change the nation,

I began to focus on my town.

I couldn’t change the town and as an older man,

I tried to change my family.

Now, as an old man, I realize the only thing I can change is myself, and suddenly I realize that if long ago I had changed myself,

I could have made an impact on my family.

My family and I could have made an impact on our town.

Their impact could have changed the nation and

I could indeed have changed the world.”

Develop yourself and learn to work with others. Make your decision on where to apply later.
At the very least, get a 2 year college degree to make your decision.