Undervolt issues - ThrottleStop

[zizou]

My system information:
HP Omen 17-w041nd
i7-6700HQ CPU @ 2.60GHz
GeForce GTX 965M 4GB
16GB DDR4
512GB SSD M.2 nvme
BIOS-version/date Insyde F.53, 12-12-2019
Wattage: 120 Watt

The problem:
When i'm playing games i hit temperatures of 90° Celsius on my CPU. In the screenshot below you can see the game "Kingdoms and Castles" running at 90° Celsius. I am not comfortable running these temperatures for my laptop. In the other screenshots below you can see my ThrottleStop settings. I copied these settings from another forum but with no result in decreased temperature. (https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...t-my-i7-6700-hq-cpu-with-throttlestop.243385/)

The question:
Can someone help me if i am using the right settings in ThrottleStop to lower my laptop temperature? I am fairly new to undervolting and don't want to mess too much with the settings in case my laptop crashes.

[Jurrunio]

Just clean the heatsinks and fan, also redo the thermal paste?

 

Undervolting is not possible if you have newer BIOS and OS versions because of the Plundervolt exploit fix which affects 6th to 10th gen Intel CPUs. Whatever voltage related thing you do in throttlestop simply wouldnt apply. I've also realized the power settings from throttlestop and Intel XTU don't work either on my laptop with an 8750H.

[zizou]

@Jurrunio

So it's basically pointless for me at this point to use ThrottleStop and undervolt my CPU because of this so called Plundervolt exploit fix? I'm reading online that this Plundervolt exploit has been fixed in late 2019 and my Bios is from late 2019 so i'm too late i guess. 

 

Thanks for your reply and your suggestions!

[Jurrunio]

27 minutes ago, zizou said:

@Jurrunio

So it's basically pointless for me at this point to use ThrottleStop and undervolt my CPU because of this so called Plundervolt exploit fix? I'm reading online that this Plundervolt exploit has been fixed in late 2019 and my Bios is from late 2019 so i'm too late i guess. 

 

Thanks for your reply and your suggestions!

You can try moving the sliders a bit and see if temperatures change at all, but this is most likely going to be the case.

 

I now notice that you're setting up those settings without actually stress testing? (since those will end up in a crash eventually) Stress testing is important because it accounts for differences between production units, if you can't afford to have a crash better not undervolt even if you could. Usually not having the software automatically apply the undervolt would be safe enough but everyone has their safe zones I suppose.

 

And -0.14V is quite aggressive, I'd start with -0.05v.

[zizou]

@Jurrunio

I will set the offset voltage to -50 and see what the results will be.

 

I think im also going to look for a BIOS update. On different forums people have been able to undervolt their laptops again with a new BIOS update. Maybe this will help?

 

Thanks for your suggestion!

[Jurrunio]

2 hours ago, zizou said:

@Jurrunio

I will set the offset voltage to -50 and see what the results will be.

 

I think im also going to look for a BIOS update. On different forums people have been able to undervolt their laptops again with a new BIOS update. Maybe this will help?

 

Thanks for your suggestion!

My laptop is also from HP but the latest BIOS wont let me do it

 

Good luck

[unclewebb]

@zizou

The ThrottleStop monitoring table shows that your undervolt is working correctly.

 

The bios you are using does not have the Plundervolt fix. That is a good thing. Avoid updating the bios or you could lose the ability to undervolt. 

 

Stop using an almost 4 year old version of ThrottleStop. Use ThrottleStop 9.5. 

https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowerup-throttlestop/

 

Fix your cooling problem. An undervolt will not fix an old laptop that is overdue for some basic maintenance. Open it up, clean it out and replace the thermal paste if necessary. Based on your temperatures, it is probably necessary. 

[zizou]

@unclewebb

Thank you for your reply man.

 

I luckily did not update my BIOS yet so im leaving it as is. I downloaded the new Throttlestop. Regarding the cooling problem, i think i'm just going to do normal maintenance and see what the results are. Thank you so much!

[zizou]

@unclewebb @Jurrunio

As you can see in the screenshot below, i think it's time i should apply new thermal paste to my CPU 

A lot of my limit reasons are yellow and when i'm playing a game "PL 2" is flashing red which i guess means it's throttling.

 

i've also disabled and locked my turbo power limits box in the hopes of fixing the throttling but i guess that doesn't help either.

 

[unclewebb]

3 hours ago, zizou said:

PL 2" is flashing red

Your CPU has a 45W TDP rating. Typical settings are PL1 is set to 45W and PL2 is set to 60W. ThrottleStop shows that both of your power limits are only set to 24W. That is the cause of your power limit throttling.

 

If those power limits cause overheating, fix the cooling problem.

 

I would also set IccMax for both the core and the cache to the max, 255.75. That helps avoid EDP throttling. 

[Jurrunio]

16 hours ago, unclewebb said:

The ThrottleStop monitoring table shows that your undervolt is working correctly.

It's not reliable

 

This is what mine says even though XTU says 0 offset. I know it doesnt work because the VID under load is the same as stock from when I first bought it

 

[zizou]

@Jurrunio @unclewebb

I have to say. Thank you guys so much for your replies. Your insight really helps me.

 

I'm going to clean my laptop now based on your suggestions. I ordered some new thermal paste so hopefully i can reapply it tomorrow. Just gonna do some basic cleaning right now.

 

Also i will adjust IccMax for the core and cache to the max and see what the results will be after cleaning.

 

Do you think maybe a cooling stand will work for this laptop? Do you have suggestions?

 

[unclewebb]

3 hours ago, Jurrunio said:

It's not reliable

If you mean XTU is not reliable, you are correct.

 

The problem with XTU is that when another program makes changes to the voltage register, XTU is oblivious to what just happened. The ThrottleStop monitoring table samples the CPU every second so if any software changes the offset voltage, it will immediately show up in that table.

 

XTU has been a bug filled mess for years. If you take the time to monitor the voltage register, you will quickly find out that XTU is not consistent. After a sleep resume cycle, XTU often times does not apply the offset voltages at all regardless of what it claims.

 

Try using HWINFO to confirm.

[Jurrunio]

2 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

If you mean XTU is not reliable, you are correct.

 

The problem with XTU is that when another program makes changes to the voltage register, XTU is oblivious to what just happened. The ThrottleStop monitoring table samples the CPU every second so if any software changes the offset voltage, it will immediately show up in that table.

 

XTU has been a bug filled mess for years. If you take the time to monitor the voltage register, you will quickly find out that XTU is not consistent. After a sleep resume cycle, XTU often times does not apply the offset voltages at all regardless of what it claims.

 

Try using HWINFO to confirm.

 

2 hours ago, zizou said:

Do you think maybe a cooling stand will work for this laptop? Do you have suggestions?

Cooling stand doesnt really help against vents already occupied by working fans, so whether it's worth it depends on whether there are other vents without fans for the cooling stand to work with.

[unclewebb]

@Jurrunio

Try HWMonitor too. 

 

I had to restart HWiNFO to get it to update the reported voltages. HWiNFO does not seem to be updating in real time.

The ThrottleStop monitoring table does not have that issue. ThrottleStop updates immediately. 

 

 

If HWMonitor is still reporting values slightly different compared to ThrottleStop, it is because it is still using the wrong conversion formula. It should be dividing the voltage register value by 1024 but it is incorrectly dividing the register value by 1000 instead. Not sure why.

 

The ThrottleStop monitoring table seems to be the only monitoring program reporting the offset voltages correctly and in real time.

[Jurrunio]

5 hours ago, unclewebb said:

@Jurrunio

Try HWMonitor too. 

 

I had to restart HWiNFO to get it to update the reported voltages. HWiNFO does not seem to be updating in real time.

The ThrottleStop monitoring table does not have that issue. ThrottleStop updates immediately. 

 

 

If HWMonitor is still reporting values slightly different compared to ThrottleStop, it is because it is still using the wrong conversion formula. It should be dividing the voltage register value by 1024 but it is incorrectly dividing the register value by 1000 instead. Not sure why.

 

The ThrottleStop monitoring table seems to be the only monitoring program reporting the offset voltages correctly and in real time.

Restarting Hwinfo did get it to show different offset values, yet I do notice the actual VID doesnt change when I move the offset around. Guess my BIOS is getting in the way.

 

Do you know what Clamp function in power section does? Seems to make the core clocks jump around like mad and worsen performance.

[unclewebb]

1 hour ago, Jurrunio said:

the actual VID doesnt change

I would not use the reported VID voltage to determine if an undervolt was working or not.

 

Use Cinebench R23 to test your voltages. You should see a difference in performance between 0 offset voltage and a -125 mV offset for both the core and the cache.

 

The core and cache voltages do not need to be set equally. With the cache held at -125 mV, bump the core up to -150 mV, then -175 mV and then -200 mV and do a Cinebench test at each voltage. Other 8750H owners have reported better performance when the core is set to a bigger number compared to the cache and the CPU is still stable. The typical difference is 50 mV to 75 mV for best results. Intel XTU does not allow you to set different voltage requests to the core and the cache.

 

Here are some Cinebench test results a user sent me a long time ago that confirms the advantage of using different voltages. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B2HZjwlS6B5vO-m6HrkYMuiu8yVh3LvY/view?usp=sharing

 

If you are still not convinced that the voltage sliders are working, keep bumping both the core and the cache by -25 mV and run a quick TS Bench test each time. If the TS Bench reports any errors or you see a BSOD, the voltages are definitely being applied to the CPU.

 

When an Intel CPU is power limit throttling, the Clamp option determines if the CPU can be forced to run slower then the base frequency which is 2.20 GHz for an 8750H. 

 

The Clamp option is more relevant to Intel's low power U series CPUs. If you want to do some testing, use ThrottleStop to lower your turbo power limits to 15W and run a stress test. You can toggle Clamp on and off while the CPU is loaded. If the CPU is power limit throttling, watch the MHz to see the difference enabling the Clamp option makes. 

 

On many HP laptops, you can use the ThrottleStop power sliders to decrease the power limits but you cannot use these sliders to go higher than the power limit that HP has set internally. There are 3 sets of turbo power limits. ThrottleStop and XTU only give you access to two of these. There is a third set of turbo power limits that can be sent to the CPU by an embedded controller (EC). The CPU always compares the three power limit values and uses the lowest requested power limit.

 

If ThrottleStop is used to set the MSR power limit to 60W and the EC is set to 45W, the EC wins control of the CPU. That is why you cannot go higher than the rated TDP during a long term stress test on many HP laptops. If you set the MSR power limit lower than then EC power limit, the CPU will be forced to use the lower MSR limit. 

[zizou]

@unclewebb @Jurrunio

Thank you guys so much!!!!!!!! I reapplied my thermal paste and cleaned out all the dust in my laptop and it's running beautifully again! Temperatures don't go above 73 C now!

I applied all the throttlestop settings that you guys advised.

 

You guys really helped me out here, thank you from the bottom of my heart!

[unclewebb]

@zizou

What thermal paste did you use? Keep an eye on your temperatures for the next few weeks. Some laptops, depending on the thermal paste you use, can quickly pump out the thermal paste leaving almost nothing between the heatsink and the CPU. Some users have had issues with Arctic MX-4.

 

Here is an example of some Noctua NT-H1 that did not last very long at all.

 

 

Good to hear that your old laptop is new and improved. Some basic maintenance fixes a lot of problems. 

[zizou]

@unclewebb

I used Thermal Grizzly Cooling Paste.

I've been gaming for almost 3 hours and it didn't even hit 75° degrees when before it used to hit 95° and thermal throttling etc.