Linux Challenge actually helps Linux with a lasting impact: Debian and Pop_OS updating 'apt' package manager to make it more fail-safe for users

[LAwLz]

Just now, Paul Thexton said:

No it didn’t. The first safety guard should’ve been the maintainers ensuring that a user application doesn’t conflict with other packages that it shouldn’t do when adding a new/updated package to the public repo. 

Okay fair point.

Safeguard 2, 3 and 4 worked. I don't think adding a fifth will change anything.

[Forbidden Wafer]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

It had protections, the GUI wouldnt even offer the option for an override, only apt after you typed in that you are sure about it. Building protection against human stupidity is impossible, period.

The GUI, yes, but it also didn't tell him why steam didn't get installed, which made him go to the terminal and nuke the desktop. A. K. A. The protections in place are useless. 

 

Making sure at least a desktop environment remains installed is such a basic feature... 

 

 

[LAwLz]

11 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

If it's meant to be used as a desktop OS, it needs a GUI and specific protections against its removal. 

But, it does.

Linus went through several hoops to override those 3 specific protections.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

The GUI, yes, but it also didn't tell him why steam didn't get installed

Yes it did. The GUI showed him this exactly error:

Quote

Failed to install "Steam". This may be a temporary issue or could have been caused by external or manually compiled software.

 

WARNING: You are trying to remove the following essential packages: pop-desktop

and then didn't give him an option to continue.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

The protections in place are useless. 

99,999% of the time the protection is fine.

It's only "not-fine" when a broken package slips into the repo, and a user who can't be bothered to read a warning forces an install by running a force-install command through the CLI that something goes wrong.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Making sure at least a desktop environment remains installed is such a basic feature... 

Yes, and that's why Pop_OS! has 4 different safeguards in place to make sure you can't remove it. The first one failed because of a temporary issue with Pop_OS! and Linus manually overrode the other 3.

 

 

 

[jagdtigger]

2 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

The GUI, yes, but it also didn't tell him why steam didn't get installed

Watch the video, Linus clicks on details:
 

Quote

You are trying to remove the following essential packages:
pop-destop ......

 

You either didnt watched the video or cherry picking things....

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

The first safeguard worked. Pop_OS! would not let Linus install Steam because it would remove his DE. So the first safeguard worked.

That is literally only masking an issue, chucking in a bad package in to a repo is the root cause of AN issue, one that as best as possible everyone tries to avoid. System76 should have a proper system in place that automates dependency validation so this doesn't happen.

 

If you want to be a distro for the masses then you shouldn't be having these problems, it's a horrible user experience to not be able to install Steam or any other basic application from a package manager with an unknown error that the supposed target audience just isn't going to understand. Surely you must understand how annoying it would be to have to be googling a problem for an hour, or more, to try and fix an issue you have no idea why is happening and then magically it just fixed it self, and who knows when you tried again.

 

The correct safeguard is the QA in putting packages in to repos, the incorrect safeguard is relying on APT's ability to correctly identify packages as essential and give that extra warning and prompt to remove them. Let's just play a follow along game, what happens if the DE packages for whatever reason don't have the essential tag against them, now what will APT do?

 

I choose to not to jump out of perfectly good aircraft in spite of having a parachute.

 

Remember Linus was put in to that situation because of System76's error, he wouldn't have jumped out that plane otherwise.

[XenosTech]

7 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

I've seen plenty of Linux channels chastising Linus for not reading the wall of text citing the fact that him having to stop and type should have been enough warning. Except that, as a new user to Linux how was he supposed to know that this message was abnormal?

This here is the reason why I have never been able to use linux long term. It's not novice friendly and usually some individuals in the linux community are snarky a-holes who are less than helpful and only alienate the new comers who then revert back to windows or Mac Os. Linux is an awesome set of Os's but the communities for some of the distros are partly the reason why some distros don't get the recognition they deserve for being novice friendly.

[Forbidden Wafer]

35 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

You either didnt watched the video or cherry picking things....

Hyperbole. Does you grandma or someone like her even knows what the devil is pop-desktop?

Best case scenario: she calls you to fix it for her.

Worst case scenario: "I didn't install that, so it must be a virus. How do I remove that?".

 

36 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Yes, and that's why Pop_OS! has 4 different safeguards in place to make sure you can't remove it. The first one failed because of a temporary issue with Pop_OS! and Linus manually overrode the other 3.

And all of them failed miserably to prevent someone don't know what they're doing who spends 15 seconds with a google search, a ctrl+c, a ctrl+v, enter, type a few additional magic words, and press the nuke button. 

This is not good user experience. You may say it gives you control over the operating system, but to normal users its just stupid this is even possible.

[xAcid9]

40 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

This is not good user experience. You may say it gives you control over the operating system, but to normal users its just stupid this is even possible.

Nah, a normal user will ask a 2nd or 3rd opinion before actually nuking it or totally stop installing the thing. 

[Fasterthannothing]

I can't believe anyone is still defending this! More safeguards for stupid people are not the answer! If you keep saying yes when a message keeps warning you not to do something don't cry when crap gets broken! 

[Fasterthannothing]

57 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Hyperbole. Does you grandma or someone like her even knows what the devil is pop-desktop?

Best case scenario: she calls you to fix it for her.

Worst case scenario: "I didn't install that, so it must be a virus. How do I remove that?".

 

And all of them failed miserably to prevent someone don't know what they're doing who spends 15 seconds with a google search, a ctrl+c, a ctrl+v, enter, type a few additional magic words, and press the nuke button. 

This is not good user experience. You may say it gives you control over the operating system, but to normal users its just stupid this is even possible.

If you want to live in a locked down desktop OS go play around in chrome OS for schools with parental controls turned on jeesh! 

[DeScruff]

13 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

Nah, a normal user will ask a 2nd or 3rd opinion before actually nuking it or totally stop installing the thing. 

I don't think you have had enough experience working retail, or PC repair.

People will do whatever the google search result brings up until they hit the result that ether breaks their PC or makes it work. People would totally delete System32 if windows didn't actively prevent that, and they read it would fix all their problems.

[xAcid9]

11 minutes ago, James Evens said:

That's not how it works. The normal user copy paste shell scripts from stackoverflow without even looking at them (kids: never do that. It is dangerous) and you expect him to stop at a warning message if the solution is right there? say yes.

 

12 minutes ago, DeScruff said:

I don't think you have had enough experience working retail, or PC repair.

People will do whatever the google search result brings up until they hit the result that ether breaks their PC or makes it work. People would totally delete System32 if windows didn't actively prevent that, and they read it would fix all their problems.

Lmao, those are not normal user. Those are user that like to tinker with things and they think they're good at it, like a script kiddies. 

[Fasterthannothing]

1 minute ago, xAcid9 said:

Lmao, those are not normal user. Those are user that like to tinker with things and they think they're good at it, like a script kiddies. 

Exactly most actual normal users don't even know what stack overflow is. Heck there are literally people who use a computer and think their mouse is broken if they don't plug the wireless dongle in. That's the level of "normal" help desk are dealing with not someone who goes on stack overflow to find a script and then runs it from the command line.

[onlybuilt4cubanxlinx]

It took the Linux community this long to figure how challenging it can be for Windows vets to use their software as a daily driver? Insert Seymore Skinner quote about being out of touch.

[linkboy]

50 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

Lmao, those are not normal user. Those are user that like to tinker with things and they think they're good at it, like a script kiddies. 

 

No, they're not. 

 

I work in mobile sales and the amount of phones that are filled to the brim with crap software like memory cleaners or flashlights is astounding.

 

The average computer user isn't really that knowledgeable about how their devices work, but they know how to use Google and that's a scary combination. These people know what they're looking for and what they want to do (in the case of memory cleaners, it's make my phone run faster and save battery life) and they'll believe anything a piece of software tells them (especially if it's simplified) and install and execute it without a care in the world (which usually ends up with their phone becoming an ad-filled mess and their launcher being replaced with a crap app).

 

Just yesterday, I spent upwards of 40 minutes with someone trying to disable the talk-back feature on her Android phone and the bulk of that was just trying to get her to remember her pin code that she types into the phone she's had for a week.

 

I have no doubt that someone who's not knowledgeable will search for an answer, find a google search that tells them what to do and execute that without a care in the world.

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Hyperbole. Does you grandma or someone like her even knows what the devil is pop-desktop?

PoP!_OS - pop-desktop, sounds familiar right?   Seems like logical thinking is becoming a rarity..... (TBH i think i should say thinking and reading in general)

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, SlidewaysZ said:

I can't believe anyone is still defending this! More safeguards for stupid people are not the answer! If you keep saying yes when a message keeps warning you not to do something don't cry when crap gets broken!

Absolutely amazing take here, what your essentially saying is anybody new to the platform and unfamiliar with the way it does things is stupid. I REALLY hope you're not in the position where you have to train others to do something.

[Kisai]

33 minutes ago, linkboy said:

 

 

I have no doubt that someone who's not knowledgeable will search for an answer, find a google search that tells them what to do and execute that without a care in the world.

 

The problem there, is that google enables this, and the most common responses to ANY question on google are SEO-crapified versions of "the actual answer", if the site (eg in this case system76 or steam) doesn't give you the answer. Since Linux is a niche, and gaming on Linux is a niche-upon-a-niche, it's most likely the answer exists and it's buried deep in some mailing list of the software you're trying to install, or the operating system's mailing list archive.

 

Like if the first answer you get for a question is a stackoverflow-like answer, but not on stack overflow, it was almost certainly cribbed from another site. Sometimes it feels like Google is devolving into what search engines were like before Google existed, where low-quality SEO'd, and pirated results are being bubbled up over "the actual answer" or even "the official site".

 

How many times have you looked for where to download a program, and been presented with a page full of large "DOWNLOAD" image links, and none of them being for the software? This is what SEO-crapification does. There's like literately thousands of pages to junk software that simply wrap ffmpeg.

 

[Sauron]

While I don't especially care either way, the problem here was much more with step 1) (meaning erroneous dependencies in the package due to maintainer error) than anything else.

[Fasterthannothing]

38 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Absolutely amazing take here, what your essentially saying is anybody new to the platform and unfamiliar with the way it does things is stupid. I REALLY hope you're not in the position where you have to train others to do something.

Its WARNING YOU DONT DO THIS! How hard is it to realize hey maybe just maybe I shouldn't press the button after multiple warnings. 

[DeScruff]

1 hour ago, xAcid9 said:

Lmao, those are not normal user. Those are user that like to tinker with things and they think they're good at it, like a script kiddies. 

Do we have a different definition of "Normal user" or something?
I define it as the "average person", any rando on the street (since practically any rando uses a computer on a semi regular basis these days.)

I can flat out tell you the average person does not like to 'tinker with things'. They don't understand how their computer works, they know they don't, they don't think they are good at it. They just want their computer to "do the thing" right now. They don't want to spend +50 minutes on a phone call, or pay for someone to fix something so they goto the free resource right at their fingertips [Google] and search: "How to fix ____" Then do whatever the first search result gives them without properly reading anything and if that solution actually applies to their problem.
If you do not believe that is the truth, then I encourage you. Leave your tech enthusiast bubble, work retail, or a call center, become depressed.

Half of my old job used to be fixing the problems people caused trying to fix another problem.

[Paul Thexton]

6 minutes ago, DeScruff said:

Half of my old job used to be fixing the problems people caused trying to fix another problem

My first full time job was on the helldesk for a small ISP helping people get their dialup internet working again (I don’t miss customers accidentally making their modems dial in while they were still on the phone to me) and the hardest part of my job was trying to find the incorrect/changed setting without making it clear that’s what you were aiming for (“but I haven’t changed anything, it just stopped working! Fix it on your side!”)
 

I’m now having some flashbacks. I don’t miss that job!

[xAcid9]

19 hours ago, linkboy said:

The average computer user isn't really that knowledgeable about how their devices work, but they know how to use Google and that's a scary combination. These people know what they're looking for and what they want to do (in the case of memory cleaners, it's make my phone run faster and save battery life) and they'll believe anything a piece of software tells them (especially if it's simplified) and install and execute it without a care in the world

That's a script kiddies.

 

Average user will find someone they know that knew about this stuffs be it their friend, or children, or cousin or niece/nephew, or someone else friend/children/niece/nephew. They're really afraid that they will break something or make it worst because their pc usually have important works/files and they can't risk to break it. 

 

18 hours ago, DeScruff said:

I can flat out tell you the average person does not like to 'tinker with things'. They don't understand how their computer works, they know they don't, they don't think they are good at it. They just want their computer to "do the thing" right now. They don't want to spend +50 minutes on a phone call, or pay for someone to fix something so they goto the free resource right at their fingertips [Google] and search: "How to fix ____" Then do whatever the first search result gives them without properly reading anything and if that solution actually applies to their problem.

From my experienced, this is not an average user. These are the minority that annoyed the shit out of you that's why you remembered them really well if you work at retail/helpdesk/tech support. Majority of my work as a tech support before is mostly mundane task like installing software, fix window printer sharing, "have you try restart the laptop or not", sluggish performance because of dying hard drive, physically broken hardware/cable. They rarely try to fix it them self at least not to the point of breaking it even worse.

 

Currently i work as PC repair and retail, today alone i had 5-6 customer came in just to install Zoom and Google Meet in their laptop. I said there's no standalone Google Meet software to install, you can only access it via browser, they asked me to show how to do it and i said I'll create a shortcut on desktop instead. They said thanks.

 

One woman even downloaded Zoom installer herself but didn't proceed with the installation because of the warning you get when you try to run exe downloaded from the internet. I do get know-it-all type of customer once in a while but they're definitely not an average user. 

[Sorenson]

14 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Yeah we don't want average Joe using Linux because a million guides for Linux have been made and remade and as obvious by this situation new people can't even bother reading a warning much less a guide. This isn't rocket science it's just lazy users thinking they are building a rocket but they never even read the instructions!

Who reads the instructions on installing steam? It’s a simple process on every other OS where you click agree to the instal and it works. But for some reason you believe it’s a users fault that a system can be broken through routine actions. 

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

18 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

Who reads the instructions on installing steam? It’s a simple process on every other OS where you click agree to the instal and it works. But for some reason you believe it’s a users fault that a system can be broken through routine actions. 

 

 

I'm struggling to find how you can possibly screw this up. Now this is a good user experience. People just want shit that works.