Fractal Torrent alternative's, and information about fans

[Dogzilla07]

4 minutes ago, NorKris said:

i would hope a 15cm fan is good

Well, It's actually a bit above mediocre for 15cm fans , but closer enough to the top 2 then 14cm, and 12cm (non-LCP) fans, so yeah, v very usuable @ 900 RPM, ok performance for that noise.

 

Phanteks PH-F140HP II is about the same performance for less noise, and Almost every Thermalright 14-16.5cm variant is better performance for less noise.

 

 

[NorKris]

1 minute ago, Dogzilla07 said:

Well, It's actually just slightly above mediocre for 15cm fans , right smack in the middle xD, but closer enough to the top 2 then 14cm, and 12cm (non-LCP) fans xD

but like.. theres is almost no 15cm fans out there   and cuz of it size i guess it beats almost all 14

 

[Dogzilla07]

17 minutes ago, NorKris said:

but like.. theres is almost no 15cm fans out there   and cuz of it size i guess it beats almost all 14

 

Yeah, but they have a very specific use case, for using in the middle between two heatsink towers, for dual tower heatsinks. Problem is, for case mounting or radiator, Phanteks T30-120 is gonna beat them as well xD, or tie in the case of 16.5cm Thermalright monsters.

 

The problem is the golden ratio of length+width vs depth. 120x25 is a sweetspot, but when u go 140 u need more than 25, u have to scale the fan in all dimensions not just 2. and so on for larger and larger fans, or they lose a lot of static pressure, and produce a lot of noise, more than they would if they were fatter.

 

25 / 120 = 0.21 | 25 / 140 = 0.18  and that's just not good. 120 / 140 = 0.86 (14% increase), and the depth doesn't follow it, it needs to increase by 14% as well, which is exactly what you roughly get with 30 / 140 = 0.21. 

 

And 30 / 120 = 0.25 which is the golden ratio for fans, so much better for fans, so muh more freedom for impeller shape design and the rest, like we see with T30-120, so ideally you want to scale a 140mm fan the same, to 35mm depth.

 

And for 180mm that translates to 45mm depth, which is obvious when u check Fractal Designs GP-18 180x38mm fan. They went with the same ratio 140x25mm has and that is 0.18, which is not enough, it's ok, but the fan suffers so much with noise for a give speed/performance, and is dying to be 45mm depth.

[Ricotta Elmar]

18 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

There's only 2 Noctua fans that are actually good (noise-to-performance ratio), NF-A15 and NF-A12x25, every other Noctua fan is pretty mediocre, and there's many better options. And I'm reluctant to even put the NF-A15 because between the Phanteks PH-F140HP II and various Thermalright models, it's the worst of them all. But not as much as when comparing other Noctua, so, meh, I mention it.

 

NF-A12x25 is very close to the Phanteks T30-120, and i forgot to mention the new MSI Silent Gale P12 which looks to be very good as well, but low quality motor and not enough tests out for it yet. Anyway the Phanteks has a better and more silent motor than the Noctua, plus performs slightly better, and will last longer.

intressing although the pricetag is  like wow, but then again they are 120x30mm , also thermalright have beter fans ? i only know they have awesome cpu heatsinks

[NorKris]

9 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

Yeah, but they have a very specific use case, for using in the middle between two heatsink towers, for dual tower heatsinks. Problem is, for case mounting or radiator, Phanteks T30-120 is gonna beat them as well xD, or tie in the case of 16.5cm Thermalright monsters.

 

The problem is the golden ratio of length+width vs depth. 120x25 is a sweetspot, but when u go 140 u need more than 25, u have to scale the fan in all dimensions not just 2. and so on for larger and larger fans, so they lose a lot of static pressure, and produce a lot of noise, more than they would if they were fatter.

 

25 / 120 = 0.21 | 25 / 140 = 0.18  and that's just not good. 120 / 140 = 0.86 (14% increase), and the depth doesn't follow it.

but im petty sure the best rad fan is the P14 tho 

[Dogzilla07]

10 minutes ago, WesleyNL said:

intressing although the pricetag is  like wow, but then again they are 120x30mm , also thermalright have beter fans ? i only know they have awesome cpu heatsinks

It's not that much more, A12x25, is 26 eur, T30-120 is 30 eur, and ARGB fans are the same price. People waste so much money on other PC parts, this is nothing (unless u fill 12 slots for aesthetics of course xD). Oh yeah Thermalright never had decent 120mm fans, but their 140/150/165mm fans very the best 140mm class sized fans. Still are.

 

@NorKris VSG hasn't tested them unfortunately, but comparing his results to Igor's Lab + der8auer, it doesn't seem so. Noctua A12x25, Phanteks T30-120 and MSI Silent Gale P12 should all outperform even Arctic P14. (If mounted with noctua's gasket adapter for 280mm radiators.

 

Thermalright TL-C14S ARGB and non-ARGB should outperform Arctic P14 in its class as well (probably the only 140mm that will outpeform at the same noise).

[Ricotta Elmar]

5 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

It's not that much more, A12x25, is 26 eur, T30-120 is 30 eur, and ARGB fans are the same price. People waste so much money on other PC parts, this is nothing (unless u fill 12 slots for aesthetics of course xD)

 

@NorKris VSG hasn't tested them unfortunately, but comparing his results to Igor's Lab + der8auer, it doesn't seem so. Noctua A12x25, Phanteks T30-120 and MSI Silent Gale P12 should all outperform even Arctic P14. (If mounted with noctua's gasket adapter for 280mm radiators.

amazon.nl 147 euro for 3 pack ....

 

are all phanteks fans good ? or are there only a few like noctua ?

[NorKris]

3 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

It's not that much more, A12x25, is 26 eur, T30-120 is 30 eur, and ARGB fans are the same price. People waste so much money on other PC parts, this is nothing (unless u fill 12 slots for aesthetics of course xD)

 

@NorKris VSG hasn't tested them unfortunately, but comparing his results to Igor's Lab + der8auer, it doesn't seem so. Noctua A12x25, Phanteks T30-120 and MSI Silent Gale P12 should all outperform even Arctic P14. (If mounted with noctua's gasket adapter for 280mm radiators.

never seen numbers on this from igor og mr der8

and i HATE using buyers tech guy as a surce but for fans vs fans i guess it can be done
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ6W-b45wZ0&t=522s) 

p14 wins at max speed and noise normalized tests 

 

 

[Dogzilla07]

14 minutes ago, WesleyNL said:

amazon.nl 147 euro for 3 pack ....

Do not buy that :P, MSRP for a 3 pack is 84.99 eur, just go on geizhals . eu and order from germany or somewhere shipping, wherever shipping is small for Norway.

 

Phanteks PH-F120MP, PH-F140MP are great fans too, they were the most silent fans in the world for like 85-90% performance of the big bois for a long time. If ur ears agree with the motor noise, they are after the new LCP fans the most quiet good performers. They come about a bit better than Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 for less money. Before LCP fans, for anyone looking for most quiet, it was basically buy both SW3 and PH-F140MP and see which motor noise u like the best xD

 

 And 2xpacks were readily on sale in europe for like 12-15 euros, which made them best-buy for years until Arctic P12/P14 showed up.

 

oof, TBG, he's good for noise, and relative idea, first glance, and he has good comparison and on point videos  for what people are looking for, but man his equipment has a margin of error on accuracy of at least 2c degrees if not 4c or so. So having a fan perform 1c on his chart is within the margin of error.

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/phanteks-t30-120-fan/4.html

 

 

[NorKris]

5 minutes ago, WesleyNL said:

amazon.nl 147 euro for 3 pack ....

 

are all phanteks fans good ? or are there only a few like noctua ?

Phanteks T30
Noctua 12x25
Arctic P12 or P14
Arctic P12 ARGB 

Thermaltake Toughfan 12

 

There is ur "Good fans"

[Ricotta Elmar]

33 minutes ago, NorKris said:

Phanteks T30
Noctua 12x25
Arctic P12 or P14
Arctic P12 ARGB 

Thermaltake Toughfan 12

 

There is ur "Good fans"

so what abt 140mm ?

[NorKris]

1 minute ago, WesleyNL said:

so what abt 140mm ?

Arctic P12 or P14  <

[Dogzilla07]

for 140mm the best would be Thermalright TL-C14S and TL-C14S ARGB

 

for 120mm I'd add MSI SIlent Gale P12 as well (if it's not too expensive)

 

But the issue is Phanteks T30-120, Noctua A12x25 and MSI Silent Gale P12 will match any 140mm fan including these mentioned here, so until Phanteks and Noctua release their 140mm, reason to get 140 are aesthetics, or the case only accepts 140.

 

Or u really want to save money, Thermalright TL-C14S ARGB is $15 on Amazon with worldwide shipping as far as I can tell, and Arctic P14 less than that. (If u wanna save money it doesn't pay off to get 5x pack of Arctic P14 (which the is the only way to get it for $5), because u don't need 5 of them as case fans.

 

So either get a 5xpack if u want to put them on the AIO, or Air cooler, on top of 3-4 as case fans, otherwise the Thermalright TL-C14S is a much better buy, because it's $15 compared to $10 for single Arctic P14. And because it doesn't have the humming resonance issue, and because it's ARGB xD.

 

However same as Arctic P14, the Thermalright is not promising in the longevity space, which is why unless u know urself and that you'll change pc parts very often, it's better to get a Phanteks T30-120 in the long run, cause it will last longer, and thus be cheaper over 5-10 years.

 

 

[thrasher_565]

the ss 180mm fan beats the nutura 200mm at a faster speed but at 800 rpm there about the same.  no idea how the torrent 180mm fast stack up thow

 

adding a shroud to the fan can help its performance but its normally not worth the price. unless you got old fans you can cut up and use. back then you could buy $2 fans off ebay but thow days seem to be gone... i my self did this so i use em as i already have em but its normally not worth buying. i guess you could 3d print some as well that could be an option. but i guess you could 3d print fan boosters too well your at it.

 

 

[NorKris]

13 hours ago, Dogzilla07 said:

for 140mm the best would be Thermalright TL-C14S and TL-C14S ARGB

 

Source?  

 

17 hours ago, Dogzilla07 said:

 

 

These Vids might be good,,, to German speaking ppl 

[Ricotta Elmar]

13 hours ago, Dogzilla07 said:

for 140mm the best would be Thermalright TL-C14S and TL-C14S ARGB

 

for 120mm I'd add MSI SIlent Gale P12 as well (if it's not too expensive)

 

But the issue is Phanteks T30-120, Noctua A12x25 and MSI Silent Gale P12 will match any 140mm fan including these mentioned here, so until Phanteks and Noctua release their 140mm, reason to get 140 are aesthetics, or the case only accepts 140.

 

Or u really want to save money, Thermalright TL-C14S ARGB is $15 on Amazon with worldwide shipping as far as I can tell, and Arctic P14 less than that. (If u wanna save money it doesn't pay off to get 5x pack of Arctic P14 (which the is the only way to get it for $5), because u don't need 5 of them as case fans.

 

So either get a 5xpack if u want to put them on the AIO, or Air cooler, on top of 3-4 as case fans, otherwise the Thermalright TL-C14S is a much better buy, because it's $15 compared to $10 for single Arctic P14. And because it doesn't have the humming resonance issue, and because it's ARGB xD.

 

However same as Arctic P14, the Thermalright is not promising in the longevity space, which is why unless u know urself and that you'll change pc parts very often, it's better to get a Phanteks T30-120 in the long run, cause it will last longer, and thus be cheaper over 5-10 years.

 

 

Well my case supports both ofc , but if i put 120mm in front there alot open gaps, where 140mm make use of those gaps , so ait can not wscape therough the front and front fans wont intake hot air, unless i am over reacting, if pasive air preasure air will go throught any gaps,  i do want to get pasive air  inside so it wont intake air through open holes ,

 

Seems TL-C14S will be hard to get,only at ali express,then is the question , are they original or not faulty.....

[Dogzilla07]

2 hours ago, NorKris said:

Source?  

Thermalbench testing (same person doing tomshardware and techpowerup, VSG, the best reviewer of fans on the internet, ever since coolingtechnique stopped doing reviews. And half a decade of tests, discussions on overclock net forum.

 

http://thermalbench.com/?s=thermalright

 

As for german u don't really need to understand what he's saying (would help but, the graphs are easily decipherable, so u can just look at the data, especially for P12/P14). That should be the most accurate P14/P12 data on the internet if i remember correctly. Though there might be 1 or 2 more tests, but the info is buried in the huge Arctic P12/P14 thread on overclock net forum.

 

@WesleyNL no you're not over-reacting, gaps upfront near intake are bad, for a positive pressure setup :), the less the better. But it's mostly gaps around the filter and where air could escape outside the case.  Which case are u talking about again, the one with white frame with the black SW3 ? and the gaps where the screws go where you mount ? Because as long as the only intake they have is the filter that's the best.

 

It's actually bad for 140mm fans when they're obstructed by 120mm mounting holes, that's something than can case humming with some 140mm fans.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-TL-C14S-Computer-Gaming-Cooler/dp/B08PV9S57M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1UJN6CILBV4S6&dchild=1&keywords=thermalright+tl-c14s&qid=1633642546&sprefix=TL-C14S%2Caps%2C254&sr=8-1

 

u can order them directly on Amazon if the shipping is ok, that's the best option. As for aliexpress just double check it's either the official shop or highly rated one with comments. googling the fan should pop up a dozen reddit posts with people's experiences and where they ordered from.

[NorKris]

2 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

Thermalbench testing (same person doing tomshardware and techpowerup, VSG, the best reviewer of fans on the internet, ever since coolingtechnique stopped doing reviews. And half a decade of tests, discussions on overclock net forum.

pic of results ?  

[Dogzilla07]

4 minutes ago, NorKris said:

pic of results ?  

It's all on the link, for his testing of previous gen fan from Thermalright, The new one is the same thing just in grey, or in RGB depending on the model. It's the same basic design as Noctua and Scythe, just superior to both of them.

 

 

[NorKris]

12 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

Thermalbench testing (same person doing tomshardware and techpowerup, VSG, the best reviewer of fans on the internet, ever since coolingtechnique stopped doing reviews. And half a decade of tests, discussions on overclock net forum.

 

http://thermalbench.com/?s=thermalright

 

As for german u don't really need to understand what he's saying (would help but, the graphs are easily decipherable, so u can just look at the data, especially for P12/P14). That should be the most accurate P14/P12 data on the internet if i remember correctly. Though there might be 1 or 2 more tests, but the info is buried in the huge Arctic P12/P14 thread on overclock net forum.

 

@WesleyNL no you're not over-reacting, gaps upfront near intake are bad, for a positive pressure setup :), the less the better. But it's mostly gaps around the filter and where air could escape outside the case.  Which case are u talking about again, the one with white frame with the black SW3 ? and the gaps where the screws go where you mount ?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright-TL-C14S-Computer-Gaming-Cooler/dp/B08PV9S57M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1UJN6CILBV4S6&dchild=1&keywords=thermalright+tl-c14s&qid=1633642546&sprefix=TL-C14S%2Caps%2C254&sr=8-1

 

u can order them directly on Amazon if the shipping is ok, that's the best option. As for aliexpress just double check it's either the official shop or highly rated one with comments. googling the fan should pop up a dozen reddit posts with people's experiences and where they ordered from.

I dont get the RPM info. and looking at the numbers .. P12 more air than the P14... impossible 

4 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

 

 

Looks like the best ones are eLoop and EK. eLoop is very good, vardar.. not so much 

[Dogzilla07]

As for the german videos, there's timestamps in the first comment that show you what each graph represents, there is absolutely no need to know german to compare the data:

 

Example : for 140mm video : - 02:23 : 100% Lüftergeschwindigkeit Gehäuse - 04:52 : 100% Lüftergeschwindigkeit Radiator - 06:55 : 1000RPM Gehäuse - 07:58 : 1000RPM Radiator - 09:15 : 500RPM Gehäuse - 10:10 : 500RPM Radiator

 

Here's the pics all on radiator:

 

first picture is 120mm , full speed, second is 120mm - 1000 RPM

 

third is 140mm full speed, 4th is 140mm - 1000 RPM

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dogzilla07]

6 minutes ago, NorKris said:

I dont get the RPM info. and looking at the numbers .. P12 more air than the P14... impossible 

Looks like the best ones are eLoop and EK. eLoop is very good, vardar.. not so much 

Ek has horrible motor issues, and are very noisy, so unusable (EK is in the process of doing a new motor for them)  eLoop can't be placed with anything infront, their motor hub sticks out, and they have bad static pressure on radiator.

 

For thermalright it tests fan up to 1800RPM, if it's slower, the line with triangles will be shorter. There's a piece missing from another review, but in general u can see that the Thermalright has one of the the best noise-to-performance ratios in VSGs testing, and then additionally behind a filter on a radiator, their static pressure is soo good that they come upfront.

 

You have to cross-reference a bit with VSG newer tests on techpowerup and tomshardware, like taking a fan data from here, and see where it lands on techpower. (that's possible because he kept the same methodology since the creation of Thermalbench, up to his latest review of Phanteks T30-120.

 

He also has noise-normalized tests on techpower/tomshardware, so u can basically just look how a fan now does in thermalbench for reference, and then compare that with that fan in the new test

[NorKris]

3 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

Ek has horrible motor issues, and are very noise, so unusable. 

True

3 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

eLoop can't be placed with anything infront, their motor hub sticks out, and they have bad static pressure on radiator.

Dont know, only know that i have hear'd good stuff about them

 

But looking av thermalright tl-c14, We kinda know whats the best blade designs are (12x25 and P12 (and almost Vardar and eloop) design)  and thermalright tl-c14 has that "normal" not BIS design. 

[Dogzilla07]

9 minutes ago, NorKris said:

Dont know, only know that i have hear'd good stuff about them

There's 10,000 or more posts detailed this, Eloop has to have standoffs, so as for the motor and the impeller not to hit anything infront, it literally is a broken design. it's also very weird when noise-normalized, compared to the other 140mm fans (even without the issue if the fins hitting the case material infront of the fan).

 

140mm fans can't have the same design, they wouldn't perform good with pure scaling from 120mm. TL-C14 has the best 140mm design out as of now, it's the same design as NF-A14 and Scyte Kaze Flex, that of a sumbarine impeller. Once the new LCP 140mm fans come out, we will see them be more similar to A12x25 and P12 respectivelly.

 

And as for the performance reductions, it's not impossible, Thermalright Toughfan 14 is the same/slightly inferiour than Toughfan 12 as shown in a good japanese/korean/chinese test (i forget which). The issue is it has the same design of fins. If u just scale the 120mm design in autoCAD u get failure. 140mm especially with LCP needs to have new design from ground up.

 

This is the most important picture to note. The usual speed one would use a 140mm fan is 600 RPM for idle to 900 RPM for load (maybe a bit more). And you see the 2 fans that are way below every other. PH-F140MP and Ty-14A SQ, they have the best noise-to-performance ratio out of all 140mm on the market (Be Quiet ! Silent Wings 3 is close also, and also tested on thermalbench).

 

on the most important RPM ranges, they are kings, which in turn propels them to the top of the pack, when noise-normalizing (all other fans drop way much from the first picture).

[NorKris]

10 minutes ago, Dogzilla07 said:

There's 10,000 or more posts detailed this, Eloop has to have standoffs, so as for the motor and the impeller not to hit anything infront, it literally is a broken design. it's also very weird when noise-normalized, compared to the other 140mm fans (even without the issue if the fins hitting the case material infront of the fan).

 

140mm fans can't have the same design, they wouldn't perform good with pure scaling from 120mm. TL-C14 has the best 140mm design out as of now, it's the same design as NF-A14 and Scyte Kaze Flex, that of a sumbarine impeller. Once the new LCP 140mm fans come out, we will see them be more similar to A12x25 and P12 respectivelly.

 

And as for the performance reductions, it's not impossible, Thermalright Toughfan 14 is the same/slightly inferiour than Toughfan 12 as shown in a good japanese/korean/chinese test (i forget which). The issue is it has the same design of fins. If u just scale the 120mm design in autoCAD u get failure. 140mm especially with LCP needs to have new design from ground up.

Like this 40db norm'd test?

failure is abit harsh no?