Have we reached peak camera? - Sony unveils the a1 with 8K30p recording, stacked BSI 50MP sensor with a 30FPS continuous burst rate & $6499 price tag

[Distinctly Average]

3 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

its a wildlife/sports camera. I've seen at least 2-3 who shoot on a9ii thinking about it

 

they didn't really have one

I e tried the A9ii and while it is good, for a lot of wildlife stuff that I shoot is it still not as good as a DSLR. Why? Battery life comes into it somewhat but that is not a killer. Over heating I did experience on a hot summer day after a lot of time tracking my subjects. On very cold days the viewfinder gets more laggy and when it gets really cold some pixels seemed to stop working. Even on hot days it is that lag that caused problems for me. When you are trying to capture specific moments you have to spend a lot of time following your subject in the viewfinder. It gets very tiring and easy to miss the shot. An optical viewfinder works better for this but the Canon R5 in high speed mode comes very close. 
 

It will come, Canon are getting close with the R5 and the rumoured R7 and R1 may hit the mark. This new Sony may do too for wildlife shooters but is is far from cheap. I also hear a lot of Sony users get fed up of their user interface which changes from model to model quite a lot and even changes lots after firmware updates. For the Pro this is a problem. Sony also lack the worldwide support the pro tog needs, especially in certain countries. Canon and Nikon have a big advantage there.

 

Here are a couple of shots taken with a DSLR that show the sort of thing I struggle with when using Sony’s best simply because of the viewfinder lag. Many wildlife togs experience the same. It really depends on their style of shooting. Dragonflies in flight I found a real struggle with the A9ii compared to my DSLRs.
 

 

[ryzenbob]

12 hours ago, jaslion said:

To answer your title of course not. The moment we reach human eye fidelity we reach peak. Anything beyond that is going beyond peak performance.

 

Otherwise neat camera seems a bit in a weird spot as it's not specifically a pro camera and not really a higher end hobbyist camera due to the price.

That's what a retina display is.  We went past that a long time ago in terms of camera tech.  But the tech is going to keep advancing ad infinitum.  8k60 is next.

[Distinctly Average]

1 hour ago, ryzenbob said:

That's what a retina display is.  We went past that a long time ago in terms of camera tech.  But the tech is going to keep advancing ad infinitum.  8k60 is next.

All incremental stuff really. A lot of spec war going on with little that actually improves things for the stills tog. Mainly Willy waving from the big brands. I would bet that in the most part this type of camera rarely gets used for video. Most people spending that kind of green will buy the right tool for their needs. If they are videographers then more dedicated cameras are a far better prospect, for stills togs like me it is overkill unless you are spending your employers money. 
 

I reckon spec wise we are reaching limits of current tech mainly due to heat and battery. Power drain is a big problem. Often taunted advantages of mirrorless is weight saving. When I can carry a DSLR and get 2K+ shots on a single battery compared to an equivalent Mirrorless where I would need 4-5 batteries and a double charger to keep them all going for the same number of shots the weight savings really go out of the window. On a big shoot a pro often hits 5k shots in a day and that means 10+ batteries on current mirrorless cameras, or 2-3 on a DSLR. So for now, travelling togs are still leaving this kind of kit on the shelves. 
 

So next will be improving battery life. At the same time we will see more AI crap added to the spec wars. Until we see a new form of sensor tech it will all be incremental and more Willy waving marketing crap like curved sensors and five nano seconds of 8K 120 etc.

[GDRRiley]

2 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

I e tried the A9ii and while it is good, for a lot of wildlife stuff that I shoot is it still not as good as a DSLR. Why? Battery life comes into it somewhat but that is not a killer. Over heating I did experience on a hot summer day after a lot of time tracking my subjects. On very cold days the viewfinder gets more laggy and when it gets really cold some pixels seemed to stop working. Even on hot days it is that lag that caused problems for me. When you are trying to capture specific moments you have to spend a lot of time following your subject in the viewfinder. It gets very tiring and easy to miss the shot. An optical viewfinder works better for this but the Canon R5 in high speed mode comes very close. 
 

It will come, Canon are getting close with the R5 and the rumoured R7 and R1 may hit the mark. This new Sony may do too for wildlife shooters but is is far from cheap. I also hear a lot of Sony users get fed up of their user interface which changes from model to model quite a lot and even changes lots after firmware updates. For the Pro this is a problem. Sony also lack the worldwide support the pro tog needs, especially in certain countries. Canon and Nikon hve a big advantage there

sony is saying 530 per battery with a dual battery grip thats about 1100
not sure if they've improve temp handling but given it can do full sensor read out at 30fps for 30mins+ for video, heat shouldn't be an issue

its now a 240hz viewfinder
The user interface is mostly the same. they've updated it for the A7SIII and now this
I know they are growing it given they got the AP contract

[Distinctly Average]

1 hour ago, GDRRiley said:

sony is saying 530 per battery with a dual battery grip thats about 1100
not sure if they've improve temp handling but given it can do full sensor read out at 30fps for 30mins+ for video, heat shouldn't be an issue

its now a 240hz viewfinder
The user interface is mostly the same. they've updated it for the A7SIII and now this
I know they are growing it given they got the AP contract

Spend half an hour tracking BIF for instance and that 530 CIPA rating goes through the floor. Add a battery grip and you instantly negate all the weight saving that is often taunted as a pro for mirrorless. Even with the grip it is rare to get anywhere near that 1100 shots I. The type of shooting the average wildlife tog dos, a third of that usually. That is not the case with a DSLR as there is no sensor, processing and EVF to power. I was chatting to a sports tog who regularly does premier league and Wimbledon recently and it is the same problem for them. They end up having a box of batteries and due to the risk of missing shots have to keep swapping half charged ones at every opportunity. 
 

I am not saying the technology has its advantages, far from it. But spec sheets do not tell the whole story. They are great talking points ad are loved on forums where tech talk is the thing. In use however, there are a lot of things that need to be worked around for best results.

 

As for overheating, let’s see how it performs in 8K for prolonged periods before we comment on that. Not that most videographers actually need to shoot for that long. The R5 got a lot of criticism for overheating but since the firmware update most videographers are rarely seeing a problem. I think it is the same with the Sony, it is really a non issue. For stills however, prolonged shooting in bright daylight has been an issue. I think Sony have had a lot longer to work on that though and are doing a great job, Their UI is still cack though. 

[GDRRiley]

23 minutes ago, Distinctly Average said:

Spend half an hour tracking BIF for instance and that 530 CIPA rating goes through the floor. Add a battery grip and you instantly negate all the weight saving that is often taunted as a pro for mirrorless. Even with the grip it is rare to get anywhere near that 1100 shots I. The type of shooting the average wildlife tog dos, a third of that usually. That is not the case with a DSLR as there is no sensor, processing and EVF to power. I was chatting to a sports tog who regularly does premier league and Wimbledon recently and it is the same problem for them. They end up having a box of batteries and due to the risk of missing shots have to keep swapping half charged ones at every opportunity.

My experience with live view on a canon DSLR is the battery doesn't drain all that fast. the big advantage isn't weight saved in the body, its saved in the glass or its with glass that was hard/expensive to make. like 28-70F2, 70-200 being smaller and lighter

so this sounds like you've tested it... but you haven't

if the battery drain is that bad run a larger batter in a bag/ on hip and run a dummy battery.

[Distinctly Average]

1 hour ago, GDRRiley said:

My experience with live view on a canon DSLR is the battery doesn't drain all that fast. the big advantage isn't weight saved in the body, its saved in the glass or its with glass that was hard/expensive to make. like 28-70F2, 70-200 being smaller and lighter

so this sounds like you've tested it... but you haven't

if the battery drain is that bad run a larger batter in a bag/ on hip and run a dummy battery.

Actually I have tested it(the A9II with many Sony lenses), as I mentioned above. I have tested a number of bodies from various brands and consider myself like lucky to have done so. 

 

Some lenses are lighter, others are not. It really is the system to look at rather than just the bodies and the tech they may include. Sony are starting to build a good range of glass, still a lot missing though but they are getting there.

 

As for battery, when you need to be mobile running a dummy battery and bag is not exactly the best way to go. 
 

I a, not against the technology, which is what you seem to think. I will be purchasing either an R5 or of Canon do release one and it is suitable, an R7. My DSLRs will not last forever. I have worn out quite a few over the years with some of my older ones being given away at 500k clicks on the shutter in the past. My cameras get used and abused until they break. Some brands are better at taking that abuse by quite some margin over others. It has yet to be seen how well the new Cano and Nikon bodies fare, but those brands know what they are doing and I am sure they will be/are good. 
 

I have not written the above posts to denigrate the tech, far from it. For me having an EVF will allow me to shoot more video handheld than I currently do. Trying to track a fast moving subject, handheld using live view is a challenge to say the least. When using a viewfinder it is a lot easier as you can keep things more steady by bracing the body to your face. Getting footage of swift, swallows and terns doing their stuff will be much easier. But there are drawbacks of the tech that will take a few more years yet to overcome. It was the same when we switched from film to digital. The last high end film cameras for instance often had 45 Af points, excellent metering over many points often linked to the AF point. It took many years of digital before we saw that as the tech was just not there, or too expensive on top of the sensor etc. As with any technology, it takes time to mature and mirrorless has not got there, yet. It will do though especially now that the old school brands are adding to the competition. Sony know how to build the tech, Canon and Nikon know the ergonomics. Gradually they will allign.

[jaslion]

6 hours ago, Beskamir said:

Even when we reach human eye resolution I don't think it'll be "enough" cause then we could have digital zoom or other novel uses that'd make the actual resolution a lot smaller.

Yeah I made an edit in another post. Basically we strive for getting all the features of a human eye in a camera and then we can say we have truly surpassed the human eye as already we can do many things our eyes cannot.

[wamred]

These are always interesting questions, the “have we reached peak x” questions in tech. It’s amazing how far we have come. 

[D13H4RD]

Apparently, the 8K isn't 8-bit as touted earlier, but 10-bit.

 

Still 4:2:0 though

[D13H4RD]

12 hours ago, YellowJersey said:

 Reasons why this exists:

1) Bragging rights

2) Sports shooters are going to love this

3) Wildlife shooters are going to love this

I don't really do video, but I'm sure there are some video people who are going to love this provided the heat management is good enough.

There's a 4th reason as well, and likely the main reason Sony even made this in the first place;

 

A showcase product that houses pretty much all of Sony's best sensor and imaging technologies in a package that people can buy with the price tag to match its extreme nature.

[Doobeedoo]

How good is 4K120 HDR in low light?

[GDRRiley]

6 hours ago, Distinctly Average said:

Actually I have tested it(the A9II with many Sony lenses), as I mentioned above. I have tested a number of bodies from various brands and consider myself like lucky to have done so. 

 

Some lenses are lighter, others are not. It really is the system to look at rather than just the bodies and the tech they may include. Sony are starting to build a good range of glass, still a lot missing though but they are getting there.
 

I. As with any technology, it takes time to mature and mirrorless has not got there, yet. It will do though especially now that the old school brands are adding to the competition.

I'm saying you wrote some of your statements like you've had hands on with the A1.

 

I don't see what they are really missing, unless your after a prime in the 150-350 range

 

given we got this new gen starting to come out, we are getting very close

[Distinctly Average]

13 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:I'm saying you wrote some of your statements like you've had hands on with the A1.

 

I don't see what they are really missing, unless your after a prime in the 150-350 range

 

given we got this new gen starting to come out, we are getting very close

No, I was talking Sony kit in general. I cannot see the A1 being much different in the A9II in the points I mention.

 

Any confusion is probably down to me being stuck on my back with a ruptured disk and dosed up on diazepam and naproxen.  Can only type on a phone so if bits are not perfectly explained you can hopefully understand why. 
 

On the lens front, just co pare the Canon range to Sony and there are big voids in the Sony, I have been very impressed by just how fast they are catching up though even if there have been issues with some of them reliability and build wise, For the pro there is also a long way for them to catch up support wise. 
 

I have a lot of respect for Sony. Most of my home electronics is Sony and t has all been very reliable. Would love to kick a few scalpers in the love spuds so I can get my hands on a PS5 for instance. Camera wise they are spec leaders but do lack in many areas compared with the likes of Canon. The 1DXII is on a different level build wise compared to anything from Sony, same for ergonomics. It is something that is just not easy to get right. I feel that is why ergonomics and UI vary so much across the Sony range as they are still low on that steep learning curve. Any Canon user can pick up any model from the xx to x models and instantly feel at home. For Sony so much changes model to model it is hard under pressure of an event to adjust and shots are missed as a result. So much becomes muscle memory so changes in ergonomics for working togs needs to be minimal. That doesn’t go down well with the average tech reviewer who expect big changes and jumps, but working togs appreciate familiarity.

 

Sony for me are like the Tesla of the photographic world. They are pushing limits that others have to follow. It is great they are doing that and have advanced so much. Like Tesla they are not constrained by traditional infrastructure and workforce. But also like Tesla do not have the user  and manufacturing experience that is only gained from many decades in the game. Drive a luxury car from an established brand then drive a Tesla, You will be very impressed by the Tesla but will miss the luxury feel, quality build and familiar well organised ergonomics of the established brand. Same with cameras IMO. Yes, Sony did have baggage from their Minolta purchase, but that is long gone now.

 

 

[GDRRiley]

7 minutes ago, Distinctly Average said:

No, I was talking Sony kit in general. I cannot see the A1 being much different in the A9II in the points I mention.
 

On the lens front, just co pare the Canon range to Sony and there are big voids in the Sony, I have been very impressed by just how fast they are catching up though even if there have been issues with some of them reliability and build wise, For the pro there is also a long way for them to catch up support wise.

see I think it will be. its their first attempt vs the 1D line and they've fixed in the A7SIII some of the biggest complaints like menus

I looked and across all RF/EF and E I don't see much missing. other than like a 200 and 300mm prime
 

[kingmustard]

23 hours ago, sub68 said:

why doesnt it have a flip out screen like a7smk3

So they have an additional selling point for the next model.

[GDRRiley]

35 minutes ago, kingmustard said:

So they have an additional selling point for the next model.

its more so photo first and a photo guys want the better angles they can get with  just an adjustable screen that doesn't flip out