Why soundbar exists?

[WereCatf]

8 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Haven't you studied art at school?

No. Literally zero interest.

8 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

An art class is basically that, an argument on why something is considered beautiful

Why something is or isn't beautiful is 100% a subjective matter, not an objective one.

8 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

You should be able to similarly elaborate your dislikebess for it beside "it's big"

It's an uninteresting, unattractive box. There is literally nothing more to say. You are basically asking me to describe nothingness to you, the lack of something; that's not possible. There is no way for me to describe to you how the lack of attractiveness looks like.

[Guest]

Just now, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Ok you have a point on raw convenience.

 

But no. A powered speaker is not a soundbar. The difference is in the shape. In one case is optimized for audio quality, in the second is optimized for... not sure.

You're passing heavy judgement on the sound quality of every soundbar in existence.

I am entirely certain you have not heard nearly enough in a proper setting to say such a thing.

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

6 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

You're passing heavy judgement on the sound quality of every soundbar in existence.

I am entirely certain you have not heard nearly enough in a proper setting to say such a thing.

Oh no. I'm sure that the end result is amazing considered the size and shape. Again, I bet that a Bose soundbar is freaking amazing.

 

But there are costs.

 

[Guest]

Just now, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Oh no. I'm sure that the end result is amazing considered the size and shape. Again, I bet that a Bose soundbar is freaking amazing.

 

But there are costs.

 

Yes, convenience costs money. This is an inescapable fact in every facet of life. Why is it that you only find fault in that when it comes to speakers vs soundbars?

 

That said, Bose does not make the only good sounding soundbar and costs are coming down on soundbars year over year. For that to happen, they must continue to exist in he first place. In 2015, soundbars were a $3B industry. It has only increased since then. The market dictates that this is the direction people prefer.

[Kilrah]

  

58 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

An art class is basically that, an argument on why something is considered beautiful.

And since beauty is in the eye of the beholder it is pretty much useless banter  Seen better stuff done by people who did precisely NOT go to an art school and thus haven't been "formatted" to whatever someone decided was to be the "standard" than by some who did.

 

When I see something I either like it or not, but there is nothing to discuss and I couldn't care less what the "design intent" was behind it. 

 

46 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

But there are costs.

People will pay for convenience and comfort, otherwise most of what we have daily wouldn't exist.

They'll also pay for looks, if they didn't art and design schools wouldn't exist either.

 

Not all just functionality. You can get from A to B with a junker car, but some people buy Ferraris. And again since you mentioned art, people buy art which serves no purpose whatsoever, sometimes at great expense

[Donut417]

3 hours ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Maybe someone that likes soundbars and other weird (from my perspective) audio-for-tv stuff can help me understand.

Simple. They are compact and sleek. Some times ascetics is what matters to people. My mom has one of the Bose solo sound bars and it doesn't sound half bad. Also price plays a role. Many times sound bars are just cheaper. Frankly they are easier to setup in some cases. Because you connect one cable to the TV. You connect power. If you have a sub then that connects to power and normally the sub is wireless so it doesn't have to directly connect to the unit. 

 

That all being said. Yes I know that there are better solutions. But in some cases those solutions cant be used. Most people are looking for a drop in solution. 

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

1 hour ago, Den-Fi said:

Yes, convenience costs money. This is an inescapable fact in every facet of life. Why is it that you only find fault in that when it comes to speakers vs soundbars?

I find difficoult to appreciate the real convenience in this scenario. I mean, it's not like connecting a couple of active speakers to the audio output of a tv is way more complex. It's just a cable anyway. You might have to find a way to position them (see my table). What you get in return of the small inconvenience of putting a table or a couple of stand is a lot more versatility, better sound fidelity and way smaller price. I was focusing on the "middle end", but you can really have a decent pair of speakers for 100 euro. Seems a no brainer to me.

You might argue that a lot of people don't really care for audio quality or abstract concepts like "audio fidelity" and convenience is paramount. But I would expect these people being fine with the tv speakers. It's not like most of them are really THAT bad.

I'm starting to wrap my head around the perceived convenience. I mean, it's easy to market a soundbar. "Buy this simple thing and your tv will sound better". While speaker might be perceived as comples technical stuff, a soundbar can be seen as some "magical box that makes awesome audio". Which is not far from the thruth tbh. That has appeal.

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

1 hour ago, Kilrah said:

  

And since beauty is in the eye of the beholder it is pretty much useless banter  Seen better stuff done by people who did precisely NOT go to an art school and thus haven't been "formatted" to whatever someone decided was to be the "standard" than by some who did.

No, that's simply not true. You can't be a musician, a painter, a designer, a sculptor etc without years of practice and study. Try to make something "artistic" and you will find that the only way to make anything worthwile is to study how and why other people did what they did and why these things are beautiful.

 

If beauty was a completely subjective thing, there won't be "speakers" and "soundbars", there would be infinite variations. Because I might just like a banana shaped speaker and you might like a spherical one and there would not be a way to reconcile our different perception of beauty.
 

Incidentally, society wouldn't work. Remember, aestetichs is a tool that we use to understand and make decisions about the reality. I will urge you to read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" by Robert M. Pirsing. Really a fine book that one.

[WereCatf]

32 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

No, that's simply not true. You can't be a musician, a painter, a designer, a sculptor etc without years of practice and study. Try to make something "artistic" and you will find that the only way to make anything worthwile is to study how and why other people did what they did and why these things are beautiful.

You really went there, did you? "Only things I was taught are beautiful and art can be art" -- what a VERY compelling argument! Such insight!

 

Holy fucking shit.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

I find difficoult to appreciate the real convenience in this scenario.

 

Yes. This is exactly the point. YOU don't appreciate the convenience. This means you are not the target market for the soundbars. It does NOT mean that to everyone else, convenience is perceived. It just means that you're ignoring the many valid reasons given for the purpose of seeming correct to yourself. There is no other reason than pride that you're trying to school other people on what art means as a point in the direction of using speakers. You've stretched your very minor grievances with soundbars to the point of parody.

[seon123]

2 hours ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Ok you have a point on raw convenience.

 

But no. A powered speaker is not a soundbar. The difference is in the shape. In one case is optimized for audio quality, in the second is optimized for... not sure.

Ah, yes, Mr. Audio Engineer, tell me more about how the ideal shape for a speaker/soundbar is a cuboid. Speakers are totally shaped that way for audio quality, not because it's a simple shape to design and manufacture

43 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Incidentally, society wouldn't work. Remember, aestetichs is a tool that we use to understand and make decisions about the reality

Feel free to jump on a plane designed by an artist. I'll be happy inside the plane designed and understood through engineering

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

11 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

 

Yes. This is exactly the point. YOU don't appreciate the convenience. This means you are not the target market for the soundbars. It does NOT mean that to everyone else, convenience is perceived. It just means that you're ignoring the many valid reasons given for the purpose of seeming correct to yourself. There is no other reason than pride that you're trying to school other people on what art means as a point in the direction of using speakers. You've stretched your very minor grievances with soundbars to the point of parody.

No no wait. I'm not ignorning anything. I'm slowly understanding and trying to put myself in a different mindset. It's a difficoult process. All your arguments are really appreciated. I need to argue them to better explore them.

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

18 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

You really went there, did you? "Only things I was taught are beautiful and art can be art" -- what a VERY compelling argument! Such insight!

 

Holy fucking shit.

No that's not my argument. My argument is that for things to be beautiful they need to be the result of a process which need reasoning and ideas that are not by their own but the result of our culture. You can - and often artists will - create a thing that is beautiful in a new way. That's one of the major achievements of a human being bar none. But there always will be a process that is intelligible and therefore explainable behind that.

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

You can't be a musician, a painter, a designer, a sculptor etc without years of practice and study. Try to make something "artistic" and you will find that the only way to make anything worthwile is to study how and why other people did what they did and why these things are beautiful.

As you've hinted at yourself (you couldn't "learn art" otherwise), people do tend to converge into groups that like the same things. Therefore if you do something you like, there's bound to be other people that like it.

Doing something you like is enough for other people to like what you do too. You don't NEED to understand why you like what you like although once you do it may become a bit quicker to pump out work in quantity if that's what you're after, and anyway figuring out why you like what you like is pretty easy.

 

I've been there myself, and done photography and video production professionally on the side without any formal training, just "how should I shoot this to make something I like", do that, publish that, and pretty quickly you've got people going "hey I like what you did there, could you do the same for me?"

 

Most youtubers fall into that category as well, it's not like it's rare.

[PlayStation 2]

With the amount of goalpost moving that's been done in this thread, most political leaders would be impressed. 

Soundbars offer a slick, discreet and convenient entry into a decent entertainment system without blowing the same kind of money that a new Honda Civic would fetch just to make a decent surround setup that'd impress you. 

Case in point: my parents are interested in a wireless surround sound setup. A soundbar and rear speakers setup would be excellent for them. They like the immersion, but they couldn't tell you what the fuck an optical audio cable is, much less anything remotely concerning an artistic audio setup.

 

If you like your setup, that's good! No one would ever bitch about it unless you overpaid for what you got. But don't complain about people wanting a sound upgrade while not wanting to give up convenience.

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

I think I start to understand it.

My thinking is "I have a tv, now I need speakers. In 2021 there are amazing speakers at dirty cheap price, let's grab a couple. Now I'm happy" then I see a soundbar and I think "What is this? Wow is expensive. How is it better than a speaker? Well it's really not actually. It's useless".

While a person buying a soundbar is someone that at some point gets aware that his tv audio sucks. Then the market says to him "We have created the perfect product for that problem: a soundbar" the person buys it and thinks "Wow this thing is simple, handy, small and sounds really good. I'm really happy." then comes I and say "Why don't you use speakers?" and they answer "nonsense, my soundbar is perfect for me". Which hey, it makes sense.

[Donut417]

4 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

ow is it better than a speaker? Well it's really not actually. It's useless".

Theres your problem. Its not about being better. Bookshelf speakers might not be as elegant of a solution as a Sound bar. As you would have a wire between them and a wire to the TV and power. A sound bar will just have a wire to the TV and the sub would most likely be wireless. Also not all sound bars are expensive. Yeah your Bose and such are but other brands exist that are cheaper. Again sound quality not necessarily better than bookshelf speakers. It really comes down to personal preference. For my mom we got her a Bose sound bar. Because 1) Didnt have an external sub 2) it required 1 wire to go to the TV power. It was small and sleek. SO it was ascetically pleasing to her. 

 

Shit, talking about speakers, I have some Logitech PC speakers connected to my TV and use ear buds plugged in to them to get sound. I also use Bluetooth with my TV via my Firestick. I know that some people in this thread might want to puke. But the solution works for ME. Just like the sound bar works for my mom. And how the Book Shelf speakers work for YOU. 

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

18 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Theres your problem. Its not about being better. Bookshelf speakers might not be as elegant of a solution as a Sound bar. As you would have a wire between them and a wire to the TV and power. A sound bar will just have a wire to the TV and the sub would most likely be wireless. Also not all sound bars are expensive. Yeah your Bose and such are but other brands exist that are cheaper. Again sound quality not necessarily better than bookshelf speakers. It really comes down to personal preference. For my mom we got her a Bose sound bar. Because 1) Didnt have an external sub 2) it required 1 wire to go to the TV power. It was small and sleek. SO it was ascetically pleasing to her. 

 

Shit, talking about speakers, I have some Logitech PC speakers connected to my TV and use ear buds plugged in to them to get sound. I also use Bluetooth with my TV via my Firestick. I know that some people in this thread might want to puke. But the solution works for ME. Just like the sound bar works for my mom. And how the Book Shelf speakers work for YOU. 

Yes, I was describing my original toughtprocess. Now I start to better understand the other point of view.

But I remain on my "expensive" definition in comparison. Maybe you don't really understand how dirty cheap bookshelf speaker are. I use a pair of edifier 1280t for my desktop pc. I got them for 80-90 euros new and shipped. They sound bloody great. Yes they are very colored, but they sound so good. I will be very happy to watch a movie over them if my old yamahas blow up.

[Donut417]

10 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Yes they are very colored,

Not sure what this means. As Im not an audiophile. Thats the thing. The average person could careless. As long as they "Sound Decent". 

 

11 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

aybe you don't really understand how dirty cheap bookshelf speaker are. I use a pair of edifier 1280t for my desktop pc. I got them for 80-90 euros new and shipped.

Like I said, price doesn't always matter. We bought the sound bar because it "Looked Good" and would have the "Mom approval". 

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

4 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Not sure what this means. As Im not an audiophile. Thats the thing. The average person could careless. As long as they "Sound Decent". 

It means that they are not flat. Meaning that sound that you hear is somewhat different from the signal that enters in. It's the bane of audiophiles who will spend trillions of dollar in unobtanium made speakers that they are super-duper flat because this is their religion (joking, but not so much).

In my eyes, flat-enough speakers are more versatile, because you can always play with eq, but it's harder to correct existing coloring on your audio. as far as I undestand it, I'm no expert.

7 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Like I said, price doesn't always matter. We bought the sound bar because it "Looked Good" and would have the "Mom approval". 

Yes, that's another thing I need to understand better. Price-to-performance might be a religion to some people but relatively meaningless to other.

[WhitetailAni]

Why soundbar?
Soundbar flat and wide, instead of tall and thin.
Tell me:
Where would you put L/R speakers in this scenario?

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

1 minute ago, ragnarok0273 said:

Why soundbar?
Soundbar flat and wide, instead of tall and thin.
Tell me:
Where would you put L/R speakers in this scenario?

Left and right of the tv, moving a couple of books away. You can choose the upper or lower bookshelf depending on how tall you are / how tall is your chair.

That's basically the perfect setup for bookshelf speakers (orly?) far better than mine, because you want speakers to ear-level and well separated for stereo imaging.

[WhitetailAni]

5 minutes ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Left and right of the tv, moving a couple of books away. You can choose the upper or lower bookshelf depending on how tall you are / how tall is your chair.

That's basically the perfect setup for bookshelf speakers (orly?) far better than mine, because you want speakers to ear-level and well separated for stereo imaging.

Here is the problem:
There is nowhere for the books to go.

Here is a picture of the lower shelves:

And this is 2 of 7 bookshelves in the house, and on most we have to doublestack books.
In this case, a soundbar works better. Remember: the more options you have, the more sales you have.

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

7 hours ago, ragnarok0273 said:

Here is the problem:
There is nowhere for the books to go.

Here is a picture of the lower shelves:

And this is 2 of 7 bookshelves in the house, and on most we have to doublestack books.
In this case, a soundbar works better. Remember: the more options you have, the more sales you have.

I've been there. Feel you.
Buy a Kindle.

[WhitetailAni]

7 hours ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Buy a Kindle.

I have one.

As do all my siblings and mom.

These we have because we don't see the point in rebuying the book, plus there's some sentimental attachment to about half of them.