Tubing gets cloudy - temporary bubbles in waterblock?!

[ohitsafaye]

Hi! 

 

I built my custom loop about half a year ago. About a month ago, I noticed my tubes looking kind of cloudy, but temps were fine. (Tube clouding can be seen in the picture, second loop was done the same day and is still clear) 

 

Yesterday, I discovered weird bubbles in my waterblock, and higher temps as usual (60C instead of 40C running a Benchmark for 45 mins). However, after running the benchmark, the bubbles fade (look at the video attached, it's a time lapse of 45 mins during the benchmark). 

 

I already ordered new liquid to rinse the loop, and will probably exchange the tubing, but I'm helpless in what's exactly causing this. I need help! 

 

Equip used:

EK copper waterblock

EK copper radiator

Alphacool bay reservoir with Laing DC pump 

Clear tubing from Alphacool (dunno the name) 

EK cryofuel + destilled water

[Skiiwee29]

tube clouding will always happen unfortunately. No way around it that I have found, seen, or heard of. Not sure on the bubbles, but it doesn't look to really be a problem. I would be more worried about flow rate if you're seeing temps jump up 20c compared to where it was and should be previously. 

[ohitsafaye]

36 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

tube clouding will always happen unfortunately. No way around it that I have found, seen, or heard of. Not sure on the bubbles, but it doesn't look to really be a problem. I would be more worried about flow rate if you're seeing temps jump up 20c compared to where it was and should be previously. 

But why would one loop cloud, and the other stays clear? I also tried setting the pump speed to 100% (it's usually on 80% due to the noise factor) and run the benchmark again, and temps would still go around 55C and not 40-45 as usual. 

 

I don't know what could hinder the flow that extremely, do you have any idea? 

 

Note: a good month ago everything was still fine. Didn't touch any settings either

[Skiiwee29]

4 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

But why would one loop cloud, and the other stays clear? I also tried setting the pump speed to 100% (it's usually on 80% due to the noise factor) and run the benchmark again, and temps would still go around 55C and not 40-45 as usual. 

 

I don't know what could hinder the flow that extremely, do you have any idea? 

 

Note: a good month ago everything was still fine. Didn't touch any settings either

sounds like a potential clog/growth in the loop. Cloudy fluids, worse temps.. I think its time to drain it and disassemble it and clean it up. 

[ohitsafaye]

9 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

sounds like a potential clog/growth in the loop. Cloudy fluids, worse temps.. I think its time to drain it and disassemble it and clean it up. 

Yeah, I already ordered new fluid and will try to disassemble the loop and rinse it with destilled water (or, is there any besser option?? Other forums said to add vinegar to the destilled water to flush, or use Mayem Blitz kit, but I can't get my hands on that bc of no shipping available recently) 

 

Can I use the same tubing after they've been detached from the fittings, or should I take new tubes? 

 

 

 

[For Science!]

19 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

-

The GPU usually dumps more heat into the loop, so it "ages" faster. I think what you're seeing is mainly de-gassing of the coolant though, as liquid gets heated, it can hold less dissolved gasses, and so it forms bubbles by coming out of solution. In the video, I at least got the impression that bubbles were spontaneously forming on the acrylic as they nucleate out.

[Skiiwee29]

Just now, ohitsafaye said:

Yeah, I already ordered new fluid and will try to disassemble the loop and rinse it with destilled water (or, is there any besser option?? Other forums said to add vinegar to the destilled water to flush, or use Mayem Blitz kit, but I can't get my hands on that bc of no shipping available recently) 

 

Can I use the same tubing after they've been detached from the fittings, or should I take new tubes? 

 

 

 

Honestly, you need to take the blocks and pump apart as well to manually clean them to see where/what was causing it. I would personally use Mayhem Blitz as a flushing agent once you are done with manual cleaning. I wouldn't reuse the tubes myself since they could potentially be contaminated with whatever caused the issue in the first place. I would replace them with new tubing. 

[For Science!]

1 hour ago, ohitsafaye said:

 

btw, what kind of thermal paste did you use for your GPU waterblock?

[ohitsafaye]

2 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

Honestly, you need to take the blocks and pump apart as well to manually clean them to see where/what was causing it. I would personally use Mayhem Blitz as a flushing agent once you are done with manual cleaning. I wouldn't reuse the tubes myself since they could potentially be contaminated with whatever caused the issue in the first place. I would replace them with new tubing. 

Thanks for the info. Luckily, I found my spare tubing and it should be enough for replacing everything. 

 

I just fear taking the reservoir and radiator out of my pc. I didn't assemble this myself (my ex bf build my pc because he's quite an expert), and I'm a total noob when it comes to any hardware parts. 

 

Also... how high is the risk of leakage after taking a waterblock/pump/etc apart and reassembling it? (Yes, I am ultra anxious) 

[ohitsafaye]

Just now, For Science! said:

btw, what kind of thermal paste did you use for your GPU waterblock?

thermal paste and pads are those delivered with the waterblock (which is from ek) 

[Skiiwee29]

Just now, ohitsafaye said:

Thanks for the info. Luckily, I found my spare tubing and it should be enough for replacing everything. 

 

I just fear taking the reservoir and radiator out of my pc. I didn't assemble this myself (my ex bf build my pc because he's quite an expert), and I'm a total noob when it comes to any hardware parts. 

 

Also... how high is the risk of leakage after taking a waterblock/pump/etc apart and reassembling it? (Yes, I am ultra anxious) 

There is a small risk. Just make sure to take care of which screws go where on the block and be as careful and gentle as you can with the o-ring to not damage it. Make sure you also take care to not pinch it when re-assembling the blocks. its pretty simple stuff that you shouldn't really have much problem with. 

[For Science!]

I doubt the problem is due to flow. You can almost have no flow and still maintain very good temperatures. From the video, I can see that the waterblock is very clean, with no sign of blocks. So I am erring on the side of some issue with the mounting and/or thermal paste.

[ohitsafaye]

2 minutes ago, For Science! said:

I doubt the problem is due to flow. You can almost have no flow and still maintain very good temperatures. From the video, I can see that the waterblock is very clean, with no sign of blocks. So I am erring on the side of some issue with the mounting and/or thermal paste.

But why would it work perfectly for 6 months and start going bad all of sudden? 

 

As I mentioned before, it was all assembled by my ex back then and he's got quite the skill in building PCs and watched a lot of tutorials on how to properly mount the cooling block. 

 

Not saying it's impossible that he made a mistake, but I can't imagine he did. 

 

(Also, idk if 60C max temp is bad?) 

[For Science!]

Just now, ohitsafaye said:

But why would it work perfectly for 6 months and start going bad all of sudden? 

 

As I mentioned before, it was all assembled by my ex back then and he's got quite the skill in building PCs and watched a lot of tutorials on how to properly mount the cooling block. 

 

Not saying it's impossible that he made a mistake, but I can't imagine he did. 

 

(Also, idk if 60C max temp is bad?) 

60 C max temp is not bad, but if its a single GPU (say...2080) cooled by a 240 mm radiator (say...EKWB PE 240). It would be good if you could specify. I would expect better, assuming your ambient room temperature are in the 20's. But you should also know that the GPU is totally fine at that temperature, especially for heavy loads.

 

If the mounting pressure was low, your thermal paste could have dried out, for example. Or if you had used liquid metal (which is why I asked), it could have amalgamated with the bare copper.  

 

In my view, the tubing discoloration is a normal process, sped up by the GPU heat. The bubbling is degassing of the coolant, although it should be asked why it hadn't degassed completely by now. There is no growth in your system, and probably no clogs either.

[ohitsafaye]

1 minute ago, For Science! said:

60 C max temp is not bad, but if its a single GPU (say...2080) cooled by a 240 mm radiator (say...EKWB PE 240). It would be good if you could specify. I would expect better, assuming your ambient room temperature are in the 20's. But you should also know that the GPU is totally fine at that temperature, especially for heavy loads.

 

If the mounting pressure was low, your thermal paste could have dried out, for example. Or if you had used liquid metal (which is why I asked), it could have amalgamated with the bare copper.  

 

In my view, the tubing discoloration is a normal process, sped up by the GPU heat. The bubbling is degassing of the coolant, although it should be asked why it hadn't degassed completely by now. There is no growth in your system, and probably no clogs either.

Thanks a ton for relieving me in terms of the tube and bubble "issues" 

 

However, thinking about taking the whole GPU apart and exchange the pads and paste... I am honestpy saying I don't dare doing that. 

 

Since you've asked: It's a Titan X Pascal, slightly overclocked, connected to a 280 radiator (the pretty thick one from EK, forgot the specific name). With a quite big reservoir (I think the whole loop fits about 1.5L)

 

I also just noticed that my idle temp was normal again (=room temp of 18C) and I'm currently running the benchmark again. After 10 Mins, I reached about 55C again (Heaven Benchmark, ultra settings, 4k widescreen) 

 

In case there's really a problem with the thermal pads, apart from temps, is there any risk I'm facing? I don't wanna risk ruining that GPU

 

 

 

 

[bowrilla]

27 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

Yeah, I already ordered new fluid and will try to disassemble the loop and rinse it with destilled water (or, is there any besser option?? Other forums said to add vinegar to the destilled water to flush, or use Mayem Blitz kit, but I can't get my hands on that bc of no shipping available recently) 

 

Can I use the same tubing after they've been detached from the fittings, or should I take new tubes? 

 

 

 

Vinegar, Mayhem's Blitz part 1 or household cleaners often recommended by some all are acid based. You don't want the acid to come into contact with your plastic parts (tubing, o-rings, acrylic tops). You only use them to clean the metal parts and even then you usually only use it on your radiators. If you can reach the parts manually, it's always better to do it that way. 

 

You can use the same tubing again, but once they start clouding I'd definitely replace it.

 

There are many possible reasons for tubing to cloud starting from coolants beyond their expiration date (yes, they have one), coolants breaking up, contamination, not well prepped/cleaned components. It will start at some point and there's some luck involved. It could also be a bad batch of tubing. Coloured coolants (especially with opaque particles) will usually quickly discolour your tubing. 

 

When disassembling your blocks (which is fine to do) you need to make sure not to damage the o-ring and to not overtighten the screws when putting it back together (or having it not tight enough but it is actually more easy to overtighten it). Probably also a good idea to evenly tighten the screws and not hammer down one side first. You can clean your blocks with soap and the metal parts with a toothbrush. You can use stronger cleaners on the metal parts (make sure it works well with copper or risk discoloration) but keep any solvents away from the acrylic tops. Put it back together after everything is dry.

 

6 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

However, thinking about taking the whole GPU apart and exchange the pads and paste... I am honestpy saying I don't dare doing that. 

The thermal pads are probably fine but they will work less good after everything was assembled once. They deform when they get squeezed and the next time you will have it slightly off alignment (even if it's just half a mm). Thermal paste ages but it should not age too much after only 6 months. Would be a good idea though to reapply every other year probably.

7 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

Since you've asked: It's a Titan X Pascal, slightly overclocked, connected to a 280 radiator (the pretty thick one from EK, forgot the specific name). With a quite big reservoir (I think the whole loop fits about 1.5L)

 

I also just noticed that my idle temp was normal again (=room temp of 18C) and I'm currently running the benchmark again. After 10 Mins, I reached about 55C again (Heaven Benchmark, ultra settings, 4k widescreen) 

With such a large volume of water it will take probably beyond half an hour for the loop to be heated up. There's a big water volume that can take a lot of energy before the whole system reaches equilibrium. 55°C is fine though. I mean, perfectly fine. A 280mm radiator is solid for CPU and GPU but not excessive.

 

Do you have a water temperature sensor built in? The reading of that one might be interesting. The max coolant temp is usually ~60-70°C, your CPU has a Tjunction around 95-105°C depending on the specific model, some chips are a bit lower, your GPU is fine in the high 80s (though might throttle a bit). They are made to be okay around these temps. A CPU temp below low to mid 80s is absolutely fine, same is true for your GPU.

1 hour ago, ohitsafaye said:

But why would one loop cloud, and the other stays clear? I also tried setting the pump speed to 100% (it's usually on 80% due to the noise factor) and run the benchmark again, and temps would still go around 55C and not 40-45 as usual. 

That is very high flow. You will not see much difference here with different pump speeds. You should not expect anything else than 1-3K differences between 50-100% pump speed - a stupid Windows 10 background process has probably more impact. If you want more cooling performance: ramp up the radiator fans. The thicker radiators scale usually very well with fan speed (unlike the slimmer ones).

[For Science!]

28 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

-

Given your circumstances are general concern about taking it apart/putting it together, my diagnosis would be that "its not broken enough to warrant fixing" in your case. In the spirit of "don't fix it if its not broken", that may be the best in case somehow you make it worse during the re-assembly. Perhaps if you and your ex- are still friends, he can have a look over for you.

 

As @bowrilla says above, it would be interesting to note the fluid temperature if you had the means to do so, although I would say that 55 degrees is the maximum for fluid temperature (as opposed to 60~70) as pumps can start to suffer and even hard tubing can start to deform around the fitting.

[ohitsafaye]

3 minutes ago, bowrilla said:

Vinegar, Mayhem's Blitz part 1 or household cleaners often recommended by some all are acid based. You don't want the acid to come into contact with your plastic parts (tubing, o-rings, acrylic tops). You only use them to clean the metal parts and even then you usually only use it on your radiators. If you can reach the parts manually, it's always better to do it that way. 

 

You can use the same tubing again, but once they start clouding I'd definitely replace it.

 

There are many possible reasons for tubing to cloud starting from coolants beyond their expiration date (yes, they have one), coolants breaking up, contamination, not well prepped/cleaned components. It will start at some point and there's some luck involved. It could also be a bad batch of tubing. Coloured coolants (especially with opaque particles) will usually quickly discolour your tubing. 

 

When disassembling your blocks (which is fine to do) you need to make sure not to damage the o-ring and to not overtighten the screws when putting it back together (or having it not tight enough but it is actually more easy to overtighten it). Probably also a good idea to evenly tighten the screws and not hammer down one side first. You can clean your blocks with soap and the metal parts with a toothbrush. You can use stronger cleaners on the metal parts (make sure it works well with copper or risk discoloration) but keep any solvents away from the acrylic tops. Put it back together after everything is dry.

 

The thermal pads are probably fine but they will work less good after everything was assembled once. They deform when they get squeezed and the next time you will have it slightly off alignment (even if it's just half a mm). Thermal paste ages but it should not age too much after only 6 months. Would be a good idea though to reapply every other year probably.

With such a large volume of water it will take probably beyond half an hour for the loop to be heated up. There's a big water volume that can take a lot of energy before the whole system reaches equilibrium. 55°C is fine though. I mean, perfectly fine. A 280mm radiator is solid for CPU and GPU but not excessive.

 

Do you have a water temperature sensor built in? The reading of that one might be interesting. The max coolant temp is usually ~60-70°C, your CPU has a Tjunction around 95-105°C depending on the specific model, some chips are a bit lower, your GPU is fine in the high 80s (though might throttle a bit). They are made to be okay around these temps. A CPU temp below low to mid 80s is absolutely fine, same is true for your GPU.

That is very high flow. You will not see much difference here with different pump speeds. You should not expect anything else than 1-3K differences between 50-100% pump speed - a stupid Windows 10 background process has probably more impact. If you want more cooling performance: ramp up the radiator fans. The thicker radiators scale usually very well with fan speed (unlike the slimmer ones).

OMG - thank you for all the replies!!

 

What I can cross from the list is an expired cooling liquid - I also ordered it directly from EK 6 months ago (and, still having the bottles, I checked their date and it's fine!), I also didn't use any colorants since most people told me to avoid it for maintenance reasons.

 

Thanks for hinting out not to use vinegar or anything at all.

 

I think I will still keep my hands off from removing the Waterblock from the GPU itself, cause as I mentioned, I'm 99% sure it was mounted as good as possible, and I don't want to risk making it worse.

 

And nope, no temp sensor build in, only "sensor" I have is touching the tubes/reservoir/radiator, which don't go above "being warm to the touch" (I'd say it's not above 40C, but the plastic of the tubes does isolate a bit)

 

I'll try boosting up the Fan speeds and also clean my dust filters again, thanks for that hint!

 

In conclusion...: Empty loop, rinse loop with destilled water only, clean parts if necessary (waterblock looks squeaky clean once bubbles fade), refill loop: watch??

[ohitsafaye]

5 minutes ago, For Science! said:

Given your circumstances are general concern about taking it apart/putting it together, my diagnosis would be that "its not broken enough to warrant fixing" in your case. In the spirit of "don't fix it if its not broken", that may be the best in case somehow you make it worse during the re-assembly. Perhaps if you and your ex- are still friends, he can have a look over for you.

 

As @bowrilla says above, it would be interesting to note the fluid temperature if you had the means to do so, although I would say that 55 degrees is the maximum for fluid temperature (as opposed to 60~70) as pumps can start to suffer and even hard tubing can start to deform around the fitting.

Ufortunately, I've got no water temp sensor installed. However, as mentioned, I can easily touch any component (tubing, reservoir, radiator) without it feeling hot to the touch. It's more like lukewarm. (That's by far not precise, I know... but I think it'd feel different if the water would be >55C, right??)

 

I'll try at least changing the tubing and rinsing the system with destilled water to make sure there's no residue (that much I dare to do because it doesn't require complex disassemly and I'll ask a friend for support)

 

I was just super worried before opening this post because I honestly feared something was terribly wrong and is going to break soon. I'm relying hard on my PC, especially during Corona, if it'd break I couldn't even work :s  (Another reason I fear breaking it by maintenance - they'll close small business again bc of the new lockdown and I couldn't even get it to some specialist)

[bowrilla]

18 minutes ago, For Science! said:

As @bowrilla says above, it would be interesting to note the fluid temperature if you had the means to do so, although I would say that 55 degrees is the maximum for fluid temperature (as opposed to 60~70) as pumps can start to suffer and even hard tubing can start to deform around the fitting.

I meant the technical limit given for many fluids. I wouldn't be comfortable with water temps beyond the 50°C mark, low 40s would be absolutely fine - actually even great due to larger ΔT.

 

14 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

Thanks for hinting out not to use vinegar or anything at all.

You can and should use some chemicals on the radiator but you need to make sure to remove all residue by rinsing it with water several times after the chemical treatment. If your ex did a good job, there shouldn't be any need to do so at the moment though. You'd need to disassemble it all. You will have to do it eventually though in half a year or so.

 

14 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

What I can cross from the list is an expired cooling liquid - I also ordered it directly from EK 6 months ago (and, still having the bottles, I checked their date and it's fine!), I also didn't use any colorants since most people told me to avoid it for maintenance reasons.

Omitting colourants is good for your maintenance job. There have been some bad batches from various coolant manufactureres but this is usually more a thing for coloured coolants and even more so for opaque coolants.

 

14 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

In conclusion...: Empty loop, rinse loop with destilled water only, clean parts if necessary (waterblock looks squeaky clean once bubbles fade), refill loop: watch??

If you can't spot any residue in the blocks through their acrylic tops then just leave them be. A proper rinse with distilled water will be good enough. Fill up for the rinse, let it run through, empty again, refill with distilled water again and either add some clear coolant concentrate or go for the full premix and ditch the final distilled water.

 

You will most likely have to tilt your system around to drain everything and to get it all out. Maybe even have to shake it.

 

Your temps are fine though.

 

  

6 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

I'll try at least changing the tubing and rinsing the system with destilled water to make sure there's no residue (that much I dare to do because it doesn't require complex disassemly and I'll ask a friend for support)

 

I was just super worried before opening this post because I honestly feared something was terribly wrong and is going to break soon. I'm relying hard on my PC, especially during Corona, if it'd break I couldn't even work :s  (Another reason I fear breaking it by maintenance - they'll close small business again bc of the new lockdown and I couldn't even get it to some specialist)

If you heavily rely on it: Don't do the maintenance now and wait for the holidays maybe? I cannot see any major issue with your system and your temps are okay.

 

P.S.: There'll probably be someone in your area that knows a thing or two about watercooling to assist/help you and even if it was just via phone or discord or skype. Maybe even on the forum here or at the watercooling subreddit. If you're okay with your ex, he might assist you as well. It's not witchcraft or rocket science though and everybody had to start somewhere eventually. You'll get it done and there are many helpful people over here or at the watercooling subreddit to answer questions.

[ohitsafaye]

6 minutes ago, bowrilla said:

I meant the technical limit given for many fluids. I wouldn't be comfortable with water temps beyond the 50°C mark, low 40s would be absolutely fine - actually even great due to larger ΔT.

 

You can and should use some chemicals on the radiator but you need to make sure to remove all residue by rinsing it with water several times after the chemical treatment. If your ex did a good job, there shouldn't be any need to do so at the moment though. You'd need to disassemble it all. You will have to do it eventually though in half a year or so.

 

Omitting colourants is good for your maintenance job. There have been some bad batches from various coolant manufactureres but this is usually more a thing for coloured coolants and even more so for opaque coolants.

 

If you can't spot any residue in the blocks through their acrylic tops then just leave them be. A proper rinse with distilled water will be good enough. Fill up for the rinse, let it run through, empty again, refill with distilled water again and either add some clear coolant concentrate or go for the full premix and ditch the final distilled water.

 

You will most likely have to tilt your system around to drain everything and to get it all out. Maybe even have to shake it.

 

Your temps are fine though.

 

  

If you heavily rely on it: Don't do the maintenance now and wait for the holidays maybe? I cannot see any major issue with your system and your temps are okay.

I'll have to wait for my next vacation anyway, since

A) I'm waiting for some spare parts

B) (as you said) calculating spare time in case of maintenance issues

C) needing a helping hand. As you said, I'll need to tilt / shake the system and get the radiator out of the case (should be a rather easy job). And if both loops are filled, my PC weighs ~15kg or sth, nothing I can easily hold or even shake for too long haha

 

As for the radiator rinsing... that's something we have forgotten before the first installation. So I want to do it before I'm having the same hassle again in a year or so. Half the work is done anyway since I gotta exchange the tubing when I rinse the system.

 

It'll be "fun" draining the system in the first place... I can't remove the reservoir without detaching the tubes (Because we had to squeeze it in from the front). There's only one screw in the front meant to be the filling point... I'm curious how well it will work as a drain...

(That's the reservoir: https://www.aquatuning.at/wasserkuehlung/ausgleichsbehaelter/2x-5-14-bayres/fuer-laing-ddc/13565/alphacool-repack-quad-laing-ddc-dual-5-25-bay-station?sPartner=googleshoppingat&gclid=CjwKCAiA-f78BRBbEiwATKRRBN6wSxy8uXXHf03t0tG2t8mvhYdCix-UMJQGtFRaY44KOpS3C4gQNhoClOAQAvD_BwE)

 

Also curious how tight the lid of the second reservoir is when it comes to tilting, I even thought about draining both loops to prevent the lid of the other reservoir (The cylindring one from EK with the black screw-lid) from leaking. What do you think?

[bowrilla]

12 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

It'll be "fun" draining the system in the first place... I can't remove the reservoir without detaching the tubes (Because we had to squeeze it in from the front). There's only one screw in the front meant to be the filling point... I'm curious how well it will work as a drain...

(That's the reservoir: https://www.aquatuning.at/wasserkuehlung/ausgleichsbehaelter/2x-5-14-bayres/fuer-laing-ddc/13565/alphacool-repack-quad-laing-ddc-dual-5-25-bay-station?sPartner=googleshoppingat&gclid=CjwKCAiA-f78BRBbEiwATKRRBN6wSxy8uXXHf03t0tG2t8mvhYdCix-UMJQGtFRaY44KOpS3C4gQNhoClOAQAvD_BwE)

You probably need to open up another plug or it won't drain well

 

14 minutes ago, ohitsafaye said:

Also curious how tight the lid of the second reservoir is when it comes to tilting, I even thought about draining both loops to prevent the lid of the other reservoir (The cylindring one from EK with the black screw-lid) from leaking. What do you think?

Tight enough. People mount it on the side. There's an o-ring in there.

[ohitsafaye]

31 minutes ago, bowrilla said:

You probably need to open up another plug or it won't drain well

 

Tight enough. People mount it on the side. There's an o-ring in there.

Thanks again.

 

You really made my day in terms of reducing my panic and giving me advice what to do.

Wish I could thank you in some other way than you giving you a tight hug in my mind (which is even Corona-safe )

 

Hope you'll have a great week!!!