Does anyone own a MOTU M4 here by any chance?

[MS-DOS]

Can you disable the frontal LED meter? I dont want it when im watching a movie.

 

Also, does MOTU support the devices long term or they ditch support when a new Windows is released? (see Native Instruments)

[Ringtail Jax]

MOST amps don't have ways to disable the screens since it's usually a matter of "is the audio working"...

 

[MS-DOS]

4 minutes ago, 178Sonic said:

MOST amps don't have ways to disable the screens since it's usually a matter of "is the audio working"...

 

 

It's fcking annoying to have some light while watching a movie tbh. They should add a way to disable it on the drivers.

[The Flying Sloth]

Audio interfaces are designed primarily for studio use and while the M4 is clearly a budget device, MOTU is a big player in high end audio interfaces and they want it to look like their more expensive devices as much as possible. Because of this there is little reason for MOTU to add a switchable option for this that would serve only to make their gimmick look even more gimmickey when (as a studio device) there would be no reason to ever turn it off. If you really want it to stop being so bright stick some electrical tape or thick paper over it when you watch a movie. 

[MS-DOS]

39 minutes ago, The Flying Sloth said:

Audio interfaces are designed primarily for studio use and while the M4 is clearly a budget device, MOTU is a big player in high end audio interfaces and they want it to look like their more expensive devices as much as possible. Because of this there is little reason for MOTU to add a switchable option for this that would serve only to make their gimmick look even more gimmickey when (as a studio device) there would be no reason to ever turn it off. If you really want it to stop being so bright stick some electrical tape or thick paper over it when you watch a movie. 

Does RME interfaces allow you to disable meters?

 

I considered finally going all in and investing in RME, since I've hear their drivers never give you any problems in terms of glitches, crackles, popping and stuff. And they support even very old interfaces and update them to work with the newer Windows 10 unlike others (see my NI interface which was dropped support for after Win 7). So maybe long term is actually cheaper assuming they physically last for years... but im not sure. Sound quality I assume m4 and a RME is similar, so it would be about built quality and driver support. But the thing is, im only going to plug in monitors, a Magni 3 and maybe an eventide effects procesor.

If I buy a RME, do I even need the Magni 3 anymore? the included headphone jack is better? because that would free up connectors. I dont play any instruments so I dont need perfect latency. I just dont want any crackling and other nonsense. I don't like that for some reason they don't add a separate knob for headphone volume, both UCX and Babyface only have one multipurpose knob so you have to do some extra actions and not just move the knob at any time.

[The Flying Sloth]

1 minute ago, MS-DOS said:

Does RME interfaces allow you to disable meters?

 

I considered finally going all in and investing in RME, since I've hear their drivers never give you any problems in terms of glitches, crackles, popping and stuff. And they support even very old interfaces and update them to work with the newer Windows 10 unlike others (see my NI interface which was dropped support for after Win 7). So maybe long term is actually cheaper... but im not sure. Sound quality I assume m4 and a RME is similar, so it would be about built quality and driver support. But the thing is, im only going to plug in monitors, a Magni 3 and maybe an eventide effects procesor.

If I buy a RME, do I even need the Magni 3 anymore? the included headphone jack is better? because that would free up connectors. I dont play any instruments so I dont need perfect latency. I just dont want any crackling and other nonsense.

You shouldn't be getting any crackling with the MOTU, that's very unusual, what have you got your buffer size and sample rates set to in the MOTU drivers and Windows?
And no, as far as I'm aware no interface has an inbuilt headphone jack designed to power 600ohm headphones. It's expected that a studio using such high impedence headphones would have an external studio monitor solution.

Really, unless you're doing proper commercial music production there's no reason you'd need more than your current interface.

[MS-DOS]

Just now, The Flying Sloth said:

You shouldn't be getting any crackling with the MOTU, that's very unusual, what have you got your buffer size and sample rates set to in the MOTU drivers and Windows?
And no, as far as I'm aware no interface has an inbuilt headphone jack designed to power 600ohm headphones. It's expected that a studio using such high impedence headphones would have an external studio monitor solution.

Really, unless you're doing proper commercial music production there's no reason you'd need more than your current interface.

No I dont own the m4, i've just heard in forums people complaining about that. The interface I had freezes, has no official Win 7 driver support anymore, the knobs move and make crakcling noises, the headphone jack doesnt work, so yeah im using onboard audio which sucks because its a bit coloured, the x570 Aorus Pro onboard audio sounds weird to me on the panning.

 

Also consider again the fact that, if motu and the rest drop driver support for products, if you want to keep it for 10+ years, it may be cheaper to buy RME since they still update ancient firewire interfaces.

[The Flying Sloth]

2 minutes ago, MS-DOS said:

No I dont own the m4, i've just heard in forums people complaining about that. The interface I had freezes, has no official Win 7 driver support anymore, the knobs move and make crakcling noises, the headphone jack doesnt work, so yeah im using onboard audio which sucks because its a bit coloured, the x570 Aorus Pro onboard audio sounds weird to me on the panning.

 

Also consider again the fact that, if motu and the rest drop driver support for products, if you want to keep it for 10+ years, it may be cheaper to buy RME since they still update ancient firewire interfaces.

MOTU and RME are both pretty good about driver updates, though if you're worried about the lights on the MOTU just get a UMC404HD. RME is certainly more of an 'industrial' or 'commercial' feeling brand than a consumer focused one and MOTU isn't too dissimilar expect for their budget line.

Remember also that Microsoft isn't releasing another Windows version in the near future so even if you were to purchase something that isn't updated you likely won't have issues.

[MS-DOS]

15 minutes ago, The Flying Sloth said:

MOTU and RME are both pretty good about driver updates, though if you're worried about the lights on the MOTU just get a UMC404HD. RME is certainly more of an 'industrial' or 'commercial' feeling brand than a consumer focused one and MOTU isn't too dissimilar expect for their budget line.

Remember also that Microsoft isn't releasing another Windows version in the near future so even if you were to purchase something that isn't updated you likely won't have issues.

UMC404HD is too wide. I like to put the DAC and the headphone amp on top of my computer case to have a clean desktop. Also, UMC404HD sound quality can compete with the M4? Where are they cutting costs to offer all these ins and outs for 105€?

 

 

 

[The Flying Sloth]

Just now, MS-DOS said:

UMC404HD is too wide. I like to put the DAC and the headphone amp on top of my computer case to have a clean desktop. Also, UMC404HD sound quality can compete with the M4? Where are they cutting costs to offer all these ins and outs for 105€?

Costs are cut by not having a silly level screen on the front and not calling it MOTU, Behringer is owned by the same multinational that owns Midas, Klark Teknik and other big names in the audio industry, the 404HD uses Midas designed Preamps and the headphone amp is designed to power 250 ohm beyerdynamic headphones. Behringer honestly is the undisputed budget king in the studio audio space at the moment and because they manufacture everything themselves they can drive down costs in economies of scale and cutting out middlemen too. If you don't believe me, the ADA8200 was put directly up against the lynx Aurora 16 (a converter costing nearly 30 times as much) in a blind test and most people either preferred the Behringer or couldn't tell the difference. That's just how Behringer rolls.

[kasugatei]

2 hours ago, MS-DOS said:

considered finally going all in and investing in RME, since I've hear their drivers never give you any problems in terms of glitches, crackles, popping and stuff.

While this is true and I cannot recommend RME stuff enough, for your use case it is just a waste of money. 
However if you really want to spend extra money on RME look at the ADI-2 DAC. It is DAC with headphone amp made for consumer market and it has option to turn LEDs off. 

[The Flying Sloth]

4 minutes ago, Niksa said:

 if you really want to spend extra money on RME look at the ADI-2 DAC. It is DAC with headphone amp made for consumer market and it has option to turn LEDs off. 

While I agree that RME stuff rocks, that's a lot more money than the M4 or 404HD.... Heck, that's more money than I can build a 32 channel system with RME interface for..... If you're going to drop that much you might as well get an X32 Rack, at least then you're getting something for the extra money you're spending (note the heavy dollop of insincerity on that last bit).
 

[kasugatei]

12 minutes ago, The Flying Sloth said:

Snip

This device is made for people who will spend 500 USD on a USB cable “because it sounds better” so for RME I believe it is ok price. Expensive, better bang for the buck devices exist, but all in all it’s probably one of the best high end DACs money can buy. 

[MS-DOS]

14 hours ago, Niksa said:

This device is made for people who will spend 500 USD on a USB cable “because it sounds better” so for RME I believe it is ok price. Expensive, better bang for the buck devices exist, but all in all it’s probably one of the best high end DACs money can buy. 

But if sound quality is the same as an M4, and this other guy says MOTU doesn't ditch devices and continue updating drivers, what would justificy the extra price of the ADI2?

is the LED on the M4 too bright? if I put it under my desk above the PC case at the back where I can't see it, will I see the light on the wall?

[The Flying Sloth]

3 hours ago, MS-DOS said:

But if sound quality is the same as an M4, and this other guy says MOTU doesn't ditch devices and continue updating drivers, what would justificy the extra price of the ADI2?

is the LED on the M4 too bright? if I put it under my desk above the PC case at the back where I can't see it, will I see the light on the wall?

Issue is you're expecting companies to justify prices, in audio prices almost never make sense. Heck, I can go out and buy a $100 microphone that sounds better than a lot of $400+ microphones I've used in the past, it just comes down to how much people are willing to pay for a product or brand name.

You may block most of the light by doing that but you wont be able to reach the interface to change any settings. Again, the UMC404HD will do as good of a job if not better for cheaper and you won't have to worry about the lights.

[kasugatei]

5 hours ago, MS-DOS said:

But if sound quality is the same as an M4

Simply said, it is not. RME has sample rate of up to 768kHz while M4 has up to 192kHz. 
 

But, do you need it? I am 99% sure that you would not notice the big difference in sound. Having that kind of DAC without complementary speakers (or monitors) which can take advantage of it is pointless. 
 

To compare it with M4. Is it better? Yes. Is it 5 times better (looking at their prices)? No. Also, not to mention that the  audiophile brands would price M4 specs DAC even higher than RME. That’s why I think that RME price point is right. 
 

As I said earlier, if you really want to spend your money on something more expensive like RME, you will get a great device. Is it worth it over M4? IMHO in your case no. But, it is your money and you should do with it whatever you want. I would keep M4 and get over the first world problem of having bright LEDs or just put something in the front while watching movies. 

[The Flying Sloth]

1 hour ago, Niksa said:

Simply said, it is not. RME has sample rate of up to 768kHz while M4 has up to 192kHz. 

You know as well as I do that you can't measure a difference between a 24bit 44.1khz signal and 768 or any other massive number of khz sample rate let alone hear the difference. 

[kasugatei]

1 hour ago, The Flying Sloth said:

You know as well as I do that you can't measure a difference between a 24bit 44.1khz signal

Humans can notice the difference up to ~60ish kHz of sampling rate. And regarding the measurements, you can measure it if you have right equipment.  
 

The whole point here is that “sound quality is the same” statement is fundamentally flawed. There is a difference. For the majority of the people it would not be noticeable enough to justify giving extra money as explained in my previous posts. 
 

And just for the end, there is a reason why sampling rate of 192kHz exists for the recording purposes. Although that sampling rate is covering deep ultrasonic territory which is inaudible for humans, it prevents distortions which can happen because of foldback aliasing. If you want to know more, Google is your friend. 
 

 

 

[The Flying Sloth]

28 minutes ago, Niksa said:

 regarding the measurements, you can measure it if you have right equipment. 

Apologies, I should have said "there is no measurable difference above 44.1 in the audible audio spectrum for humans", in studios we use up to 192 for lossless time stretching of recordings and avoiding aliasing but before release tracks are cut at 20khz to remove all ultrasonic frequencies. There is no measurable or otherwise noticeable difference in a signal below 20khz (limit of human hearing though most adults can't even hear above 16khz) above 44.1khz sample rate and if you're going to argue otherwise I'm sorry but You've lost what little credibility I previously thought you may have. Have the explanation from iZotope to chew on for a bit, they concede that all difference between sample rates are in ultrasonics alone.

[kasugatei]

41 minutes ago, The Flying Sloth said:

Snip

So what did I say that is wrong? Did I say that humans can hear above 20kHz. No I didn’t. Did I say that 700+ kHz sampling rate is better because it is bigger. No, I didn’t. I am aware of Nyquist theorem and I know how sampling works. I implemented it myself. You don’t need to send me the first result from the Google. 
My whole tldr was two different devices will sound differently, but you caught on the sampling rate. Maybe it is my fault as well because I am not native English speaker and sometimes I express myself in a way that can be understood differently. If I would have to rewrite my sentence where I first mentioned 768kHz I would add “amongst the other things”.
 

But for the end, there is one significant difference between you and me. First, I don’t care what do you think about my credibility. We are both anonymous on a IT related forum. I care what corporate users say about products that I worked on or I am currently working on.  I am proud to work on some technologies that are yet in the process of standardization. I am not pure consumer like you. I believe that you are doing good thing when people are asking for budget stuff. I have no time or will to do the same. I will give you credit for that, but when it gets highly technical we witnessed several times on this forum that it is not your strong side. 

[The Flying Sloth]

28 minutes ago, Niksa said:

So what did I say that is wrong?

2 hours ago, Niksa said:

Humans can notice the difference up to ~60ish kHz of sampling rate.

That's what you said that was wrong, very wrong.

You're right, we're both anonymous on a tech forum, you have a history in broadcast and live audio, I have a history in studio audio. Perhaps you are working on emerging technologies, perhaps not. The reason I shared the iZotope result is that I have a history of working with the companies products and as far as complex and emerging technologies are concerned there are few development teams in the audio industry that can hope to rival iZotope. As far as your comments go about corporate users and consumers, we're both anonymous on a tech forum, I wouldn't hope to make such assumptions about you and I'd hope to receive the same in return.

Though I don't appreciate your comments I have no interest in starting a pissing contest with you (though I do warn my bladder is quite powerful). I'd prefer to call a truce at this point and avoid future issues.

 

 

[kasugatei]

17 hours ago, The Flying Sloth said:

That's what you said that was wrong, very wrong.

Wrong how? Ok, 60 is a bit stretched up, but the keywords are “up to”. Next available sampling rate from 48kHz is 96kHz. It is something that is called standardization.

[MS-DOS]

Fun thing is I have high pithced tinnitus on the left ear for years and a couple months ago a low rumble started on my right ear. It''s not too audible, but it's there. If I put the finger inside the ear this rumble becomes worsen then fades out, and goes back to the subtle pulsating vibration, so worrying about 20 or 60khz is probably as irrelevant as it gets. fml

[The Flying Sloth]

2 hours ago, MS-DOS said:

Fun thing is I have high pithced tinnitus on the left ear for years and a couple months ago a low rumble started on my right ear. It''s not too audible, but it's there. If I put the finger inside the ear this rumble becomes worsen then fades out, and goes back to the subtle pulsating vibration, so worrying about 20 or 60khz is probably as irrelevant as it gets. fml

I won't pretend my hearing is perfect either, I played stage shows and arenas as a brass player as well as being in big bands so my hearing is all sorts of 'not great'. Really should have starting using ear protection sooner.

 

Anyway, in that case my recommendation stands, UMC404HD should be more than good enough and since Microsoft have said publicly that they intend Windows 10 to last quite a while I don't think you'll have any issues, even if they never update the drivers (and they will). The M4 seems to be a viable option as do many other interfaces but the 404HD will likely be the cheapest and I'm a stickler for value so that's what I'll stick to.

[MS-DOS]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:32 AM, The Flying Sloth said:

Costs are cut by not having a silly level screen on the front and not calling it MOTU, Behringer is owned by the same multinational that owns Midas, Klark Teknik and other big names in the audio industry, the 404HD uses Midas designed Preamps and the headphone amp is designed to power 250 ohm beyerdynamic headphones. Behringer honestly is the undisputed budget king in the studio audio space at the moment and because they manufacture everything themselves they can drive down costs in economies of scale and cutting out middlemen too. If you don't believe me, the ADA8200 was put directly up against the lynx Aurora 16 (a converter costing nearly 30 times as much) in a blind test and most people either preferred the Behringer or couldn't tell the difference. That's just how Behringer rolls.

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I still haven't bought anything. Im still using the onboard audio and I really want to go back to using the Modi 3 for my headphones.

 

I was considering this one which I assume is the same as the 404HD sound quality wise but smaller since I want to place it on top my computer case and the other one is probably too big:

 

https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_u_phoria_umc204hd.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOiJlbiJ9

 

My question is, what knob would control the volume the Modi 3 plays at? or it will play at "max" default and I just control the volume with the Modi 3 knob?

 

 

And I need to buy unbalanced to unbalanced since this only only has 2 outs balanced. It makes no difference in sound quality right? because the ak1 has 2 pairs of balanced outs and it sounded pretty good

 

The ak1 also had separate knobs so I was able to control monitor volume and headphones separately, so im not sure if I would have problems with this one since the same knob may control monitors + headphones at once.

 

 

 

 

Also, do you have a blindfold test studies to prove that these cheap units sound the same as 1000€ RMEs? That is still pretty shocking. I've found this so far:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/

 

Very interesting and looks like you are right. However does this also apply to sound quality of the built-in headphone amp and when driving a separate amp unit? (in my case I will be using the Modi 3 like I said)