In need of a psu - help :D

[FALC0N]

2 minutes ago, PSUGuru said:

I think you're confusing it with the green label CXM from 2012. Yes, that unit did suck. But the new models from 2015 are a solid budget choice, than and the 2017 revision of the CX

If you're referring to the 2003 FSP, well, it would depend on the model in question, since he didn't state a model.

 I was referring to the FSP.  I can't imagine a 2003 model being worth using over the current CX.  Like I said, the M12II is a bit of a unicorn. But even then, it's only a budget unit now.  

[PSUGuru]

1 minute ago, FALC0N said:

 

To believe that, you would also have to believe that the M12II EVO in 2013 was a random name change. 

 

They made it full modular when it was originally, only semi-modular.  It also appears to me that they retuned the voltage regulation a bit.  

The M12 EVO is the same thing. Minimal changes were made, nothing substantial. It's still based on an ancient group regulated platform. Ripple and regulation were made slightly tighter, which was a useless thing to do since they're in spec anyway. At least on the 750w versions where it utilized DC-DC converters. The 620w version and below used group regulation, which almost never passes crossloads.

Out of curiousity, why are you so insistent on defending an ancient platform? It lacks UVP on the 12v Rail, has no OCP, no OTP. This is on the sub 700w models. There's no reason to get one, and they're not suited for a modern system.

[FALC0N]

18 minutes ago, PSUGuru said:

Another thing to note, PSUs aren't software. They don't have bugs. They can have poor design choices, but not bugs.

 

You realize that "bug" was originally a hardware term, right?  It was ported over to software, but it applies to hardware too.  

[mariushm]

52 minutes ago, PSUGuru said:

Out of curiousity, why are you so insistent on defending an ancient platform? It lacks UVP on the 12v Rail, has no OCP, no OTP. This is on the sub 700w models. There's no reason to get one, and they're not suited for a modern system.

In some countries, the S12ii and M12ii are sold at very good prices and it's difficult to get power supplies with the same degree of quality when it comes to internal components, and same amount of warranty.

 

For example, even here in Romania where we kinda have choices (and being a EU country I can order from Amazon or other places and have cheap shipping), the seasonic S12ii and M12ii have quite decent prices.

 

Here's an example (not sure if this site loads in your country) ; https://www.pcgarage.ro/surse/

See the attached images for what  a major IT store has for power supplies from well known brands, starting from around 150 RON (35$).  The S12ii is currently sold for ~255 RON or 60$ (and some additional discounts that don't apply to all people) and m12ii isn't more expensive. From time to time there's sales bringing the price down further.

Pick from those pictures a handful of power supplies you'd say they have the best price for performance and internal quality better than Seasonic models.

Cheapest have the minimum 2 year warranty imposed by EU laws, maybe 60% of the rest have 3 years warranty.  If you filter further to show only 5 years warranty or more, you'll probably see less than 10-20 models below 100$.

 

(click on pictures to zoom them , or click on scroll wheel to open them in new tabs)

 

 

[LukeSavenije]

25 minutes ago, mariushm said:

 

i already see you proving yourself wrong in a screenshot

 

i see a dc-dc, made by hec, with uvp on 12v, with good crossloading, from a reliable company in the screenshot you shared

[mariushm]

1 minute ago, LukeSavenije said:

i already see you proving yourself wrong in a screenshot

 

i see a dc-dc, made by hec, with uvp on 12v, with good crossloading, from a reliable company in the screenshot you shared

Then name it, so I can see the specs, warranty, look for a review to see if they use debatable Chinese capacitors inside or not, if it's sleeve fan or something better... i'd trade dc-dc for a good ball bearing or fluid dynamic bearing and taiwanese/japanese capacitors any day.

[LukeSavenije]

1 minute ago, mariushm said:

hen name it, so I can see the specs

system power 9

 

and yes, i know that thing has a sleeve bearing

 

and since when are all japanese and german caps bad? heck, a lot of japanese companies PRODUCE in china

[Matsozetex]

3 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Then name it, so I can see the specs, warranty, look for a review to see if they use debatable Chinese capacitors inside or not, if it's sleeve fan or something better... i'd trade dc-dc for a good ball bearing or fluid dynamic bearing and taiwanese/japanese capacitors any day.

System Power 9 400W, bottom left of the first screen shot, which might I add is cheaper than any GB Bronze platform units you had listed.

[Matsozetex]

2 hours ago, FALC0N said:

-Snip-

The f14lab review demonstrates high load on 12v and low load on minor deviating the 12v rail by .367v, not great performance by any stretch of the imagination, and these results are consistent with other reviews.

 

OPP of the unit doesn't even work properly, in Computerbase DE's testing, when OPP kicked in the 12v rail was as low as 8.7v.

 

So what is certain, the GB Bronze platform flops during protection tests, and cross-load testing it flops (which is expected for a group regulated units). Whilst other performance is decent, the previous two issues make it an instant no-buy for me.

 

EDIT:

 

More Seasonic GB Bronze platforms failing: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/antec-hcg-620/7.html

 

This time, the 5v rail goes out of spec on high minor rail load. High 12v rail with low minor gives a near -0,4 voltage deviation. It also fails during transient response tests.

 

I'd hate to be the one to say that x reviews are invalid, but generally the reviews that feature protections testing tend to have more weight. Because a unit can perform fine, but lacking certain protections, or those protections not working is a deal-killer.

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Matsozetex
More sources

[LukeSavenije]

6 minutes ago, Matsozetex said:

OPP of the unit doesn't even work properly, in Computerbase DE's testing, when OPP kicked in the 12v rail was as low as 8.7v.

you know... funny thing... that was the second failed s12ii: https://www.computerbase.de/2015-10/350-watt-netzteil-test-lc-power-xilence-sea-sonic-super-flower/

 

as well as this is quite... interesting: https://ru.gecid.com/power/seasonic_s12ii-520_bronze_ss-520gb_2015/

Quote

all 12V Wires are soldered in the same place with no seperation

 

[mariushm]

222 RON : System Power 9 400w

255 RON : System Power 9 CM 400w

274 RON : System Power 9 500w

 

255 RON : Seasonic S12ii 520w

 

 

System Power 9 400w  : 3 years warranty, 32A (384w) on 12v, from which you lose some depending on how much you consume on 5v and 3.3v (up to 103w)

5 SATA and 2 molex is good for 400w

2 pci-e 6+2 connectors, but on one cable.  I'd be concerned about rail distribution ... psu has a 22A and a 18A rail ... what if use buys a second hand R9 Fury or R9 380 that consume 200-250 watts? The two connectors probably go on same rail.

Elite 85c rated primary (meh), Taiwanese Teapo SC (acceptable) and Japanese NCC KZE (very good) on secondary. Yate Loon sleeve bearing .. meh but acceptable for a 400w psu as it won't produce much heat.

Is it worth 222 RON for less than 400w on 12v (considering the 5v and 3.3v rails pull power from this 12v)?

If you add the 3y warranty, and worries about power distribution ... I'd pass... don't think the dc-dc and c6/c7 are worst passing higher wattage.

 

S12ii 520w ..

5 years warranty ...

Claims 2 x 20 A rails for 12v but it's most likely single rail (40A , 480w in total), 130w on 3.3v and 5v (24A each vs 24A for 3.3v and 15A for 5v)

Fluid Dynamic Bearing fan , all japanese capacitors inside (NCC),

Has separate pci-e cables, one with 6 pin and one with 6+2, so you get less voltage drop on cables when powering a video card that needs 2 pci-e 6/8 pin connectors

 

The Hardware Secrets review says Undervoltage protection not listed but present : https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/seasonic-s12ii-bronze-520-w-power-supply-review/9/

 

I don't see the 400 watter being better, it scores points only at dc-dc converter (but 15a on 5v? meh... try using it for a NAS with 8+ hard drives and see how that works for you) and the C6/C7 state support thing.

 

[LukeSavenije]

2 minutes ago, mariushm said:

he Hardware Secrets review says Undervoltage protection not listed but present : https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/seasonic-s12ii-bronze-520-w-power-supply-review/9/

they're not 100% wrong about that, but not on 12v from what i can find

 

2 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Claims 2 x 20 A rails

but as i showed above, they're soldered together

 

3 minutes ago, mariushm said:

om which you lose some depending on how much you consume on 5v and 3.3v (up to 103w)

that's for group reg, not dc-dc

[FALC0N]

On 9/15/2019 at 4:42 AM, Matsozetex said:

The f14lab review demonstrates high load on 12v and low load on minor deviating the 12v rail by .367v, not great performance by any stretch of the imagination, and these results are consistent with other reviews.

 

A .367 volt deviation under full 12v crossload isn't great by modern standards, but isn't bad either.   Its inside 3% and well inside the ATX spec of 5%.   That also only occurs under MAX 12v crossload load.  A typical M12II 620 with little to no minor rail load will maintain 1% regulation to around 300w, then 2% to around 450-500w.  Then 3% the rest of the way.  The lower wattage units do even better than that. Personally, I would never use any psu that close to its rated power level anyways.  When I use the 620, it is for systems with a projected load of 500w or less, and preferably 450w.

 

But remember, this is but one category that no group regulated unit will ever win against a more modern platform with DC to DC.  But its like a carburetor vs Point fuel injection.  Fuel injection is a HUGE advantage along with more modern vehicle tech.  BUT while a 1975 Corvette can't compete with a 2019 Corvette,  it CAN compete with a 2019 Corolla which will have cost cutting measures in place to compete at a certain price point.  Likewise, the other budget units the M12II is competing against have corners cut in the name of costs.  Corners that the M12II/S12II don't cut.   You have weight the complete unit performance, not just one category.

 

Quote

OPP of the unit doesn't even work properly, in Computerbase DE's testing, when OPP kicked in the 12v rail was as low as 8.7v.

 

So what is certain, the GB Bronze platform flops during protection tests.....

It depends upon your definition of "working properly".  I would argue the point of OPP is to prevents things from blowing, not to maintain a certain voltage spec.  And it didn't blow.  The unit cruised through it like it was going to a birthday party. 

 

This is also a good example of why you prioritize real world performance over lab results.  The point of lab tests is to PREDICT real world performance, not substitute for it.     It did what it was supposed to do.  The fact that it didn't do it at a point the review would prefer doesn't change the fact that is does work effectively. Safety hasn't been a problem for this model in 15 years.  It not going to suddenly start being a problem just because of a few OCD reviews and forum posters.   And we aren't just talking about 15 normal years.  People have been loading the crap out of these units the whole time due to their reputation and they STILL held up.

 

Quote

and cross-load testing it flops (which is expected for a group regulated units). Whilst other performance is decent, the previous two issues make it an instant no-buy for me.

 

This time, the 5v rail goes out of spec on high minor rail load. High 12v rail with low minor gives a near -0,4 voltage deviation.

That is a 130w minor rail crossload.  That is NOT a real world workload. Many units today don't even support that much on the minor rails. That's like sticking a car on a dyno and simulating 7000 rpm at 5 mph.  And excellent example of a lab-only or VERY niche scenario.

 

Group regulation implemented here does EXACTLY what it was expected to do. Produce decent to good regulation in real world load scenarios.  People should stop acting like Group units run at a maximum minor rail crossload all day long.  They don't.  The sequential voltage regulation tests are pretty close to what group units do in real world performance, contrary to the to the prevailing narrative on this forum. At least the good ones do.

 

 

Quote

More Seasonic GB Bronze platforms failing: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/antec-hcg-620/7.html

 

It also fails during transient response tests.

 

 

 

This particular unit did fail the transient test for the minor rails, BUT if you weren't cherry picking negative results you would have noticed that their are four other S12II based models on that site that were also tested.  Each passed all the transient test with solid results, including two other examples of the 620w, suggesting that this unit may not have been operating correctly.  Here are the two 620's that passed.  Notice the consistency of the results between them:

 

Rebranded as an Antec HCG 620

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/antec-hcg-620m/7.html

 

Rebranded as an PCP&C Silencer III 600

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/pc-power-cooling-silencer-mk3-600w/7.html

 

 

Additionally, it's fairly common for units in the budget category to struggle with this test.  Here are three examples of commonly recommended units on this form.  These were NOT cherry picked.  They were the first results I found and were performed by the same reviewer as the above units.  All failed:

 

The CX450 (the Great Wall model)

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-cx450-psu,5678-8.html

 

The Be Quite U9 500

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/be-quiet-system-power-u9-500w-psu,6035-4.html

 

The Be Quiet Pure Power 700 

https://www.kitguru.net/components/power-supplies/aris-bitziopoulos/be-quiet-system-power-u9-700w-psu-review/8/

 

 

In fact, the two rebranded M12II 620's outperform all three units.  Remember earlier when I mentioned cost cutting to target the budget market?   You can check that box here.  That extra dough you dish out for the higher end models like the RMx actually does amount to improved performance.  You can't just throw DC to DC on the secondaries and expect high end performance.  These are budget units and they act like budget units. 

 

 

[FALC0N]

On 9/15/2019 at 4:55 AM, LukeSavenije said:

that's for group reg, not dc-dc

No, that is accurate for DC to DC as well.   The Minors are still drawing from the same pool.   If there is no draw on the minor rails, the whole 400w will usually be available for the 12v.   If the minor rails draw significant load, it reduces the available 12v power.   This of course assumes the unit rated 100% accurately.  If the unit is over spec'd, then it could do max for both, but that could be true for non-DC to DC too.