UPDATE 2 - Czech National Security Agency - Huawei, ZTE are a security threat

[WereCat]

Czech Republic Goverment response updated

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, WereCat said:

Czech Republic Goverment response updated

I don't get the update.

 

Quote

Since NUKIB initially failed to explain and clarify its warning, their decision to withdraw Huawei mobile phones was rampant.

So NUKIB can't explain why they want to ban Huawei, or they choose not to do it, not even to the Czech Republic government?

 

Quote

After an explanation from the NUKIB, it is clear that its warning concerns only systems that are classified into critical information infrastructure or major information systems, which are several dozen. End-users or their end-user devices, such as mobile phones, tablets or modems, are not and will not be endangered.

Well that's what I assumed to begin with. That's still a massive "fuck you" to Huawei though. Their infrastructure business is massive. Wouldn't be surprised if it's as big or larger than their consumer market.

 

Quote

NÚKIB is completely independent of the government when issuing a warning. The government, the BRS and the prime minister can not order the NUKIB to withdraw or revise such a warning. "

So what is NUKIB exactly? I thought they were some part of the government. But apparently they are not controlled by the government, and they won't even give details on why the government should ban Huawei devices? So is it just some organization going "yo, Czech government, you shouldn't use Huawei anymore. We won't tell you why, just trust us"?

[WereCat]

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I don't get the update.

Its a rollercoaster.

 

This makes their previous claims even worse as I also assumed this is in regard to the infrastructure but this makes it seem like their first reply was against all of their devices which is completely nuts.

 

They claimed that they have proof and "findings" yet they fail to even explain this to the goverment... what?

 

And then the goverment comes and says that this has nothing to do with them... but this is the National Security Agency of Czech Republic... HOW is it not part of the goverment? What?

[Amazonsucks]

14 minutes ago, WereCat said:

Its a rollercoaster.

 

This makes their previous claims even worse as I also assumed this is in regard to the infrastructure but this makes it seem like their first reply was against all of their devices which is completely nuts.

 

They claimed that they have proof and "findings" yet they fail to even explain this to the goverment... what?

 

And then the goverment comes and says that this has nothing to do with them... but this is the National Security Agency of Czech Republic... HOW is it not part of the goverment? What?

The Chinese government does have a lot of influence and owns a lot of politicians in the west. Maybe theyre putting pressure on the ones they have control of there to reverse these "dangerous and subversive" rumors.

[leadeater]

13 hours ago, Amazonsucks said:

There is nothing "free market" about using products made by communist state owned businesses.

Sure but it's the "free market" that is blocking them, don't you see irony in that . Market != company or product so it's irrelevant who or how it's made when your talking about the market itself, that is supposed to be free and that point is championed so much.

 

"I'm sorry you can't sell your wares here"

"But I thought it was a free market?"

"It is, just not for you"

[Fetzie]

On 12/17/2018 at 11:25 PM, Neftex said:

do you not see the difference when youre doing this in your own country vs foreign country doing that to you?

The Cisco stuff that the NSA fiddled with was sent globally.

[Neftex]

4 hours ago, Fetzie said:

The Cisco stuff that the NSA fiddled with was sent globally.

read the context i quoted

[Amazonsucks]

11 hours ago, leadeater said:

Sure but it's the "free market" that is blocking them, don't you see irony in that . Market != company or product so it's irrelevant who or how it's made when your talking about the market itself, that is supposed to be free and that point is championed so much.

 

"I'm sorry you can't sell your wares here"

"But I thought it was a free market?"

"It is, just not for you"

That would be one of the many problems with a "global market". You have people defending China's "right" to sell their junk even if they dont play by the same rules everyone else is expected to.

 

They get a free pass that no one else does. Hence even with the semantics and mental gymnastics its not a free market because some of the market participants have favored status.

[LAwLz]

7 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

That would be one of the many problems with a "global market". You have people defending China's "right" to sell their junk even if they dont play by the same rules everyone else is expected to.

 

They get a free pass that no one else does. Hence even with the semantics and mental gymnastics its not a free market because some of the market participants have favored status. 

Wait... I am not following you here.

Huawei (not China) has been banned from selling devices to several countries now, and you complain that people are saying that they should have the right to sell to those countries? Is it China that, in your opinion, don't "play by the same rules" as everyone else? What rules are you talking about exactly? And before you bring up maybe minimum wages, working conditions or the likes, please keep in mind that we are strictly talking about national security concerns in this thread. That's what the thread is about. I don't want you bringing up unrelated and off-topic political ideologies to justify hating on China because that's not relevant to this news article.

 

What free pass, as far as security goes, does "China" (I assume you mean Huawei) get that no one else gets?

What "favored status" does Huawei get? If anything, it seems like they are getting banned and no one wants to say why.

[Amazonsucks]

48 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Wait... I am not following you here.

Huawei (not China) has been banned from selling devices to several countries now, and you complain that people are saying that they should have the right to sell to those countries? Is it China that, in your opinion, don't "play by the same rules" as everyone else? What rules are you talking about exactly? And before you bring up maybe minimum wages, working conditions or the likes, please keep in mind that we are strictly talking about national security concerns in this thread. That's what the thread is about. I don't want you bringing up unrelated and off-topic political ideologies to justify hating on China because that's not relevant to this news article.

 

What free pass, as far as security goes, does "China" (I assume you mean Huawei) get that no one else gets?

What "favored status" does Huawei get? If anything, it seems like they are getting banned and no one wants to say why.

I was responding to his comment about the "free market", so you want me to explain my reply but not back it up with relevant information so that i can help you create a strawman argument to knock down. 

 

"And before you bring up facts" is basically your stipulation. Ok i wont bother.

 

And no i mean China, whose government has control over Huawei. China was literally given most favored nation status in the WTO.

 

If China didnt get a free pass in terms of security and violating other nations' sovereignty by building military bases all over the South China Sea, all the cybercrime China commits against the west, stealing intellectual property, installing operatives in various western governments like Australia, NZ, and the USA, undercutting competition frm countries that dont have the slave labour practices that YOU brought up but then told me not to bring up, i think youd see a lot more tarriffs and sanctions and a lot less Made in China.

 

Oh wait, after decades of China undermining the west thats finally happening and people are getting bent out of shape on behalf of state run businesses as if these companies are poor victims of some injustice.

 

And if they didnt get a free pass youd definitely see Confucius Institutes and CSSAs shut down in the west. 

 

I honestly cant fathom how people are so defensive over blocking the use of Huawei equipment. Its literally infrastructure made by a hostile nation. Well hostile to anyone outside of BRICS.

 

No one should need to spell out why for people again. Communist China is the biggest existential threat to western civilization. They pretty much say it themselveswith their goal to be the next global superpower...

 

 A better question is "why SHOULD you use telecom infrastructure made by an adversary who is currently engaged in cyberwarfare against you?" The very idea is absurd.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Amazonsucks]

15 minutes ago, Sampsy said:

Why are there many users trying to blindly defend Huawei? I see lots of one sided demands to see evidence of the security risk (as if spy agencies will freely give away their secrets) while completely dismissing the notion that firms controlled by one of the most repressive states in the world would act on that state's behalf. 

 

If you think Huawei isn't acting as an intelligence tool for China you have your heads in the clouds. And frankly if you think governments like China's haven't flooded the entire web with their propaganda army, including here, I could say the same.

I have a theory as to why actually. Theyve been so successfully ideologically indoctrinated into believing that defending their own country's interests is somehow evil and they are morally obligated to do the most counterproductive thing to their own rational self interests. Its essentially become a reflex to them.

 

Its the kind of hypocritical selflessness that has been preached in the west by those who seek to destroy western culture for decades really. Usually the ones doing the preaching dont practice it themselves. 

 

Its the same hypocrisy that allows Mark Zuckerberg to sell or mishandle millions of peoples' private info then buy a whole neighborhood for privacy.

 

Some people could be paid shills as you suggest, but i think the whole brainwashing people to do it for free by reflex is more likely. Its also an idea taken straight from The Art of War.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Sampsy said:

Why are there many users trying to blindly defend Huawei? I see lots of one sided demands to see evidence of the security risk (as if spy agencies will freely give away their secrets) while completely dismissing the notion that firms controlled by one of the most repressive states in the world would act on that state's behalf. 

 

If you think Huawei isn't acting as an intelligence tool for China you have your heads in the clouds. And frankly if you think governments like China's haven't flooded the entire web with their propaganda army, including here, I could say the same.

Well anyone could do the same in reverse, the blind ignoring of one's own states similar transgressions and other global companies committing acts that violate international law and active sanctions and yet do not get blocked from the market.

 

Hardly anyone is actually defending Huawei, if that is what you think asking consistent punishment for the same issues or asking for evidence is then that's a problem. Unjustified and unproven punishment is exactly no better than what people try and bring up against China.

 

China does not have to be a democracy, or have better working conditions above what international law requires, or basically anything you need to worry about at all. Human rights is very important but what does that have to do with Huawei. Sure you're going to point to a flimsy rule China has about companies having to help the government but I'm sorry America has similar requirements of their own companies and companies operating within the country, just like any other country does that has an active national security branch of the government.

 

Huawei is not the Chinese government and no matter how many people scream that it's not going to make it true. Do you have any idea how many US/UK etc politicians and ex-politicians are members of Board of Directors of high profile companies, a lot.

 

Plus, even though this has zero relevance to the topic of Huawei, you're never going to encourage reform of China by blocking China from the market. That's a textbook policy that pushes countries further in to repression and retaliation.

[Amazonsucks]

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

flimsy rule China has

Mischaracterizing the level of control that the government has on "private"(no such thing in China) businesses is disingenuous.

 

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Unjustified and unproven punishment is exactly no better than what people try and bring up against China.

 

Not buying something from someone is hardly punishment. China has been undermining every western economy and colonizing Africa, the South China Sea and doing all sorts of unethical things internationally like all the hacks, government infiltration etc. 

 

Only in 2018 have a few western countries really started to play the game by their rules and China is losing big time. Its not the wests fault that the Chinese communist party has given their "private" companies a bad reputation. Cant really blame people for having common sense and caution.

 

Which goes back to the conditioning that people do what is against their own rational interests for the sake of some amorphous "greater good" by feeding more money to China's state owned businesses. The only good it serves is self destruction of the west and enriching China. So basically it only benefits China, which seems to be all that anyone is concerned with on one side of this debate.

 

For what reason people would have such self destructive tendencies can only be speculated about since none of them seem to have an answer to why one should use Huawei infrastructure if they live in the west.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

Not buying something from someone is hardly punishment. China has been undermining every western economy and colonizing Africa, the South China Sea and doing all sorts of unethical things internationally. Only in 2018 have a few western countries really started to play the game by their rules and China is losing big time

Incorrect, everyone had the choice before to buy or not buy from them. Blocking them removes the choice and is punishment towards the company without any proper justification. Huawei is not China, bring a reason Huawei needs to be blocked not anti China rhetoric.

[Amazonsucks]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Incorrect, everyone had the choice before to buy or not buy from them. Blocking them removes the choice and is punishment towards the company without any proper justification. Huawei is not China, bring a reason Huawei needs to be blocked not anti China rhetoric.

Becsuse of the simple fact that the Chinese government has an ongoing espionage and cyberwarfare campaign against the west. The Chinese government has immense influence over companies like Huawei, making them a potential threat. They dont buy a bunch of US or other 5 eyes infrastructure in China so why would we do something they dont do? Virtue signaling?

 

Everyone being who? Corporations which are subject to government regulations? Corporations that could unintentionally becone a national security threat by using potentially backdoored equipment?

 

Seems like governments and regulatory bodies blocking import of such products is exactly what they SHOULD be doing: protecting national security.

 

People are acting like Huawei is some kid on a sports team not getting called to play so we should all feel sorry for them. Its kinda weird really.

 

Where was all this concern for western companies being blocked from selling in China for decades? Or about decades of them putting tarriffs on western imports. Or the millions of jobs lost to outsourcing. I dont understand the outrage about blocking some networking equipment from being sold...

[leadeater]

57 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

Becsuse of the simple fact that the Chinese government has an ongoing espionage and cyberwarfare campaign against the west. The Chinese government has immense influence over companies like Huawei, making them a potential threat. They dont buy a bunch of US or other 5 eyes infrastructure in China so why would we do something they dont do? Virtue signaling?

Because the products Huawei has might be the best product for the price, that's how the market works. Virtue signaling would be buying a more expensive or inferior product than other options on the market, of course if you don't like that then you could just block that other option from the market...

 

57 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

Everyone being who? Corporations which are subject to government regulations? Corporations that could unintentionally becone a national security threat by using potentially backdoored equipment?

See that's the problem, the extensive testing of the networking equipment has resulted in no security threats being found. Wanting to believe there are backdoors in the equipment and them actually being there is very different. You're mistaking the security risks of working with the company, and their subcontractors, with security risks with the products themselves. There's good evidence, mentioned this before, of Huawei sub contractors stealing documents which poses security risks with working with them but it's really easy to buy the equipment and in the contract only have them as the equipment supplier and not have any involvement beyond that and do all the installation and configuration by a more trusted company or employees.

[leadeater]

43 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

Where was all this concern for western companies being blocked from selling in China for decades? Or about decades of them putting tarriffs on western imports. Or the millions of jobs lost to outsourcing. I dont understand the outrage about blocking some networking equipment from being sold...

There is no outrage, questioning the decision to block a company from the market with no evidence put forward as to why and signals at some kind of threat due to their products but no documented evidence can be brought forward to back that up is a problem.

 

There has been a lot more usage of Huawei equipment in the UK, US, Canada, Aus, NZ etc than you realize or are willing to admit and that usage was only allowed through the very tight scrutiny of the products and constant rechecking of them and the supply chain to ensure they are actually safe. Nothing has ever been found or their certification for sale would never have been given and has not been revoked either.

 

The reason why I question that they have been banned or not allowed to be used in critical infrastructure is because I have first hand knowledge of the process Huawei has to go through to sell products in our countries, Huawei was chosen at the end of our network replacement RFP process. Everything we use was checked by the UK intelligence agencies and they were the ones that gave the certification for sale of those products and as yet nothing has changed in relation to those products.

 

We have people saying their products are a security threat but I know for a fact nothing has been found.

 

China isn't the global market either and they aren't working with multiple other nations to get a company blocked in those nations.

 

If you don't like that China puts money in to Chinese companies to make them more competitive on the global market, that is their choice to do so and how they want to spend their money, you can counter that with your own traffis. That's why they exist, to protect your local market from foreign economies.

 

No one has been forced to by Huawei products and it's hard to argue against buying them when the products have been checked, the features have been evaluated and the price is very compelling. As much as I would not have picked them I know why they were, price. They were the cheapest proposal and checked off all the technical requirements for us, my preference would have been to stay with our current provider.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Amazonsucks said:

I was responding to his comment about the "free market", so you want me to explain my reply but not back it up with relevant information so that i can help you create a strawman argument to knock down.  

 

"And before you bring up facts" is basically your stipulation. Ok i wont bother.

It's not that I don't want you bringing up facts. I just wanted you to bring up facts which are relevant to this news thread (which is a ban on Huawei devices for supposed security reasons), rather than derail it.

 

2 hours ago, Amazonsucks said:

I honestly cant fathom how people are so defensive over blocking the use of Huawei equipment. Its literally infrastructure made by a hostile nation. Well hostile to anyone outside of BRICS. 

 

-snip-

 

 A better question is "why SHOULD you use telecom infrastructure made by an adversary who is currently engaged in cyberwarfare against you?" The very idea is absurd.

The thing is though, the US and UK are doing the same crap. Just look up Struxnet, or WannaCry, or how the CIA have hijacked and modified transports of network equipment from Cisco.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Sampsy said:

Why are there many users trying to blindly defend Huawei? I see lots of one sided demands to see evidence of the security risk (as if spy agencies will freely give away their secrets) while completely dismissing the notion that firms controlled by one of the most repressive states in the world would act on that state's behalf. 

 

If you think Huawei isn't acting as an intelligence tool for China you have your heads in the clouds. And frankly if you think governments like China's haven't flooded the entire web with their propaganda army, including here, I could say the same.

I am not blindly defending Huawei. What I am asking is for some evidence from the people blindly accusing them for things which have not been proven.

I strongly believe in "innocent until proven guilty". It is what the entire legal system in our modern world is founded upon. So until I see evidence I will treat them as innocent. I will be suspicious of them, just like I am suspicious of things developed in the US or other hostile territories engaging in cyber-warfare, but I honestly think that banning them makes less sense than banning US companies like Cisco.

I only make judgements based on the facts I have. Right now, I don't have any facts that Huawei are a tool for the Chinese government to pose a threat to national security.

[The Owl]

I have some evidence!! I was playing BFV the other day and the were some Chinese team on the opposite team, I was doing great and had an amazing k/d radio, suddenly my HG8247 rebooted out of nowhere!

 

Spoiler

</Conspiracy>

 

 

[ThatBlockishWay]

Just so we're all on the same page we all know that huawei works closely with the chinese military right? And given how the CCP interacts with companies, especially chinese companies you can bet if they can use Huawei as a tool they will

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgFP46yVT-GG4o1TgXn-04Q

This channel does nothing but China^

[Amazonsucks]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

but I know for a fact nothing has been found

So you have access to NSA and CIA top secret info? You get national security briefings across your desk each day?

59 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

based on the facts I have. Right now, I don't have any facts that Huawei are a tool for the Chinese government to pose a threat to national security.

If you arent privy to top secret intel, why would you assume you have all the facts.

 

Its funny to see people questioning their own national security agencies and erring on the side of a known adversary. Huawei, like all Chinese companies, is obligated to do the party's bidding.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

So you have access to NSA and CIA top secret info? You get national security briefings across your desk each day?

If there were any security risks with the devices their certification for sale would be revoked, it hasn't so there isn't. I don't need access.

[Amazonsucks]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

The thing is though, the US and UK are doing the same crap. Just look up Struxnet, or WannaCry, or how the CIA have hijacked and modified transports of network equipment from Cisco.

Whats your point? Does China buy a whole bunch of backdoored American networking equipment? Youre talking about one of the most protectionist regimes around.

 

Why do we owe Huawei or China?

 

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

strongly believe in "innocent until proven guilty". It is what the entire legal system in our modern world is founded upon.

 

Not so much in China, which is where Huawei is headed from. If you'd like a long list of examples i have them. But we wont get into the outright hypocrisy of caring more about the human rights of a non-human entity like a massive telecom corporation than actual humans too much. I just find it amusing that people seem to care so much about the rights of a big company when they can ignore them for actual humans.

 

Huawei is not a person being denied access to a fair trial. Innocent until proven guilty is reserved for human beings and should not be applied to huge corporations controlled by enemy governments. 

[Amazonsucks]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If there were any security risks with the devices their certification for sale would be revoked, it hasn't so there isn't. I don't need access.

So you have no problem with banning them if there is some national security related reason to? Like several countries have just done...

[leadeater]

38 minutes ago, Amazonsucks said:

So you have no problem with banning them if there is some national security related reason to? Like several countries have just done...

No several countries have only barred their use or recommended to not use the equipment in critical infrastructure like 5G. Huawei has not been outright banned from sale nor their license for sale been revoked, not even in the US.

 

Problem is when these countries are barring their use they often state security risks posed with the equipment which is counter to the facts and evidence their own security agencies have been able to find. You're criticizing China for not allowing use of western equipment due to their political reasons and yet Huawei is being barred for the same reason, not because of any document security risks with the equipment. How does this make it better than what China does?

 

The reasons given are bogus and their is no evidence to their claims or the license for sale would be revoked and the documented evidence for why supplied, just like the evidence supplied to certify them for sale. Huawei wasn't simply allowed in to the market without evidence proving the equipment was not a security risk.

 

The Huawei equipment we use is connected to a closed network of national importance that all other academic and research institutions connect to, these entities include: NeSI, NIWA, AARNet/NREN, Equinix, Revera, ESR, GNS, Landcare, Food and Research, MoE and all the major universities. This network is also directly connected to the US, Europe, Australia and other countries academic and research networks. If there were documented real security risks with the equipment you think that 1.) The license for sale would be revoked 2.) All equipment be removed or required to be removed from such sensitive networks.

 

Our government, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, had to clear the sale of Huawei to us and we as of yet have not heard from them or any other government entity about documented security risks with Huawei network equipment nor been asked to not buy it or remove it. These are the facts I know, I don't counter facts with fear and suspicion.