Stupid Idea, throw an Peltier Element between hot and cold side of the loop

[mindforger]

this idea may sound stupid and for those who know in fact it wont work may tell me so, because through my limited understanding this idea sounds still somewhat reasonable

 

put an peltier element between two copper blocks (CPU heat exchanger facing each other)

 

and let run the hot water of the loop through the hot side of the peltier element and the cold water thorugh the cold side

 

this would make the hot side hotter and increase the heat transfer from the radiator to the air

while the "cold" side still being hotter than without the peltier element, but this may cancel out by flowing through the cold side of the peltier element bringing it back to "normal" temperature

 

but looking at the efficiency of an peltier element the additional heat from the element itself may eat up the increased heat transfer from the radiator

 

I for myself would love to test it but i don't have a spare radiator or pump flying around and ripping my loop apart ist kind of a pita :(

 

My general idea is to get more silent cooling from my radiator without the requirement to have a bigger one

 

 

 

 

 

[For Science!]

...Just add that radiator that you would have needed to cool the peltier into the normal loop to increase the TDP of your normal custom loop. No need to get a new loop, new blocks, new pumps. There is no place for peltier elements in modern day PCs.

[Mira Yurizaki]

10 minutes ago, mindforger said:

this would make the hot side hotter and increase the heat transfer from the radiator to the air

That heat transfer "boost" will quickly die off as the water gets closer to ambient temperature. At worst, you're making the system hotter by having a net gain of heat.

 

[mindforger]

I still have a lot of headroom for more thermal load on my rad, but i want to go more silent ... the current loop runs just fine an barely noticable (the occasional chattering of my old HDD is way louder than anything else on this PC now, but if i were going to do more OC on my GFX i would have to ramp the fans a bit higher and that would be noticably louder ... i am kinda on the edge where the fans become audible under full load

[Neo-revo]

Unless you don't put a radiator on the cold side. It is pointless since the cold radiator will have ambient air pushing through it. If not warmer than ambient

[mindforger]

7 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

That heat transfer "boost" will quickly die off as the water gets closer to ambient temperature. At worst, you're making the system hotter by having a net gain of heat.

 

my loop is running 45°C on the input of the rad and 40°C on the output under full load with ambient around 30°C (not real room temperature but the air in that space is around that point) i assume i reached an equilibrium there between heat difference to air and heat transfer resistance

 

the boost would be to avoid turning the fans higher, achieving the same deltaT over the radiator with lower fan RPM at the same load

[mindforger]

2 minutes ago, Neo-revo said:

Unless you don't put a radiator on the cold side. It is pointless since the cold radiator will have ambient air pushing through it. If not warmer than ambient 

you missed the point, i want to increase the hot side of the loop by cooling the cold side to a lower temperature to have more heat transfer from the radiator to the air

[Neo-revo]

Two loops or making the fluid hotter in your exhaust rad?  Fluid in a closed loop doesn't have a huge deltaC. So maybe I am confused to what you think will happen if you put a hot side warming the water in a loop

[Mira Yurizaki]

1 minute ago, mindforger said:

you missed the point, i want to increase the hot side of the loop by cooling the cold side to a lower temperature to have more heat transfer from the radiator to the air

Okay, now I understand what you're trying to do.

 

A higher temperature differential between the input and output of the radiator won't really do anything. All you're doing here, assuming perfect heat transfer, is transferring the heat differently within the loop, but it's still going to be transferred out of the loop in the same manner. Considering also the hot side of the Peltier cooler is trying to dump heat on the hot side of the loop, it likely won't be efficient anyway.

[mindforger]

single loop, making the exhaust side hotter taking some heat from the return line to increas the delta

[For Science!]

15 minutes ago, mindforger said:

-

The fact that you have 5 degrees delta in the input and output of the radiator indicates to me that your pump must be super super slow. Normally it is 1 degrees at most, have you tried increasing your pump speed - it usually doesn't come with more noise provided it is something of quality (i.e D5).

 

Look at the orange and blue columns.

You haven't spelled out how much radiator space you have at the moment or what components you are using. 

 

Also adding heat into your loop to increase the efficiency will increase the system temperature. While your radiators will operate more "efficiently" you've defeated the purpose of cooling.

 

 

[mindforger]

Considering also the hot side of the Peltier cooler is trying to dump heat on the hot side of the loop, it likely won't be efficient anyway

yeah i figured that would probably be the case

 

peltier elements are simply useless

 

The fact that you have 5 degrees delta in the input and output of the radiator indicates to me that your pump must be super super slow. Normally it is 1 degrees at most, have you tried increasing your pump speed - it usually doesn't come with more noise provided it is something of quality (i.e D5). 

yes indeed i run it at very low speed with a lot of headroom, i am okay with it running so slow because it is like the fans on the edge of becoming audible and i really really like the silence of my system now

[elevengyerek]

24 minutes ago, mindforger said:

this idea may sound stupid and for those who know in fact it wont work may tell me so, because through my limited understanding this idea sounds still somewhat reasonable

 

put an peltier element between two copper blocks (CPU heat exchanger facing each other)

 

and let run the hot water of the loop through the hot side of the peltier element and the cold water thorugh the cold side

 

this would make the hot side hotter and increase the heat transfer from the radiator to the air

while the "cold" side still being hotter than without the peltier element, but this may cancel out by flowing through the cold side of the peltier element bringing it back to "normal" temperature

 

but looking at the efficiency of an peltier element the additional heat from the element itself may eat up the increased heat transfer from the radiator

 

I for myself would love to test it but i don't have a spare radiator or pump flying around and ripping my loop apart ist kind of a pita

 

My general idea is to get more silent cooling from my radiator without the requirement to have a bigger one

 

 

 

 

 

This could work I think but there is more efficient solution. If you put the peltier to the CPU you can go under the ambient temp. In the old days there were some loop like that.

Like that: 

But if you use like a 200 watt peltier ot more which is sucking a lot of power it just useless in everyday life. But if the power cost doesn't matter this is working.

But this is just my opinion.

 

[Neo-revo]

1 minute ago, mindforger said:

Considering also the hot side of the Peltier cooler is trying to dump heat on the hot side of the loop, it likely won't be efficient anyway

yeah i figured that would probably be the case

 

peltier elements are simply useless

 

Not really. But they don't have much use in personal computers these days.

[mindforger]

2 minutes ago, elevengyerek said:

This could work I think but there is more efficient solution. If you put the peltier to the CPU you can go under the ambient temp. In the old days there were some loop like that.

Like that: 

But if you use like a 200 watt peltier ot more which is sucking a lot of power it just useless in everyday life. But if the power cost doesn't matter this is working.

But this is just my opinion.

 

yeah going sub-ambient is not a really good idea ... well for my CPU it would certainly help but i would require a beast of a peltier element to not block the heat transfer

 

also the idea was to increase radiator performance wihtout installing a bigger one and not turning the fans higher when i increas thermal load with an upgrade

[elevengyerek]

Just now, mindforger said:

yeah going sub-ambient is not a really good idea ... well for my CPU it would certainly help but i would require a beast of a peltier element to not block the heat transfer

I think everything above 200 watt is enough. So if the cpu got hot on the cold side the efficiency should rise and also the peltier will heat up the radiator which also help with heat transfer to the air. But if you try it out I think you can't lose with it. I think the processor can run in idle without cooling and if you test this with slowly increase the cpu load to avoid fast thermal jump which can damage the cpu.

[mindforger]

to make the picture of my setup complete it's an 4790k@4.5GHz cooled with an malestrom 120k

and a zotac 980ti amp omega through an nexxxos 240 ut45 with an enermax neochanger running on 2800rpm

 

it was kind of a bundle descision so everything fits nice together and i was lucky everythign works so silent now

 

PS:

the 4790k has been delidded because it jumped straight to 100°C with 4.3GHz before (after delidding the old paste crumbled like dirt from the IHS, not even making real contact with the die anymore)

and now it reaches 80°C max with prime95 with conductonaut between die and IHS and cryonaut between the maelstrom and the IHS

[elevengyerek]

2 hours ago, mindforger said:

to make the picture of my setup complete it's an 4790k@4.5GHz cooled with an malestrom 120k

and a zotac 980ti amp omega through an nexxxos 240 ut45 with an enermax neochanger running on 2800rpm

 

it was kind of a bundle descision so everything fits nice together and i was lucky everythign works so silent now

 

PS:

the 4790k has been delidded because it jumped straight to 100°C with 4.3GHz before (after delidding the old paste crumbled like dirt from the IHS, not even making real contact with the die anymore)

and now it reaches 80°C max with prime95 with conductonaut between die and IHS and cryonaut between the maelstrom and the IHS

Without OC 200 watt should be enough I think but if you want to make a good OC profile that cpu will generate a lot of heat so the strongest 350 W peltier should needed.

Interesting I have 4670k@4,6GHz with corsair H100 and my temp is under 80. Usually in the 60 range.

[mindforger]

12 hours ago, elevengyerek said:

Interesting I have 4670k@4,6GHz with corsair H100 and my temp is under 80. Usually in the 60 range.

i think my maelstrom 120k is bad, it sometimes, especially when under load makes the sound of air being smashed around inside somewhere near the waterblock/pump

 

unfotunately it is an AIO that i bought last year as of pure coincident (it being 15bucks only at that point, so i could not say no)

 

maybe it is too flimsy in getting the heat over properly to the rad or the pump being not good at all

as it is a copper alu mixed loop, i wont touch it as i do not have the proper liquid for it to fill it up or refill it, but i will eventually grab another 120 nexxxos at some point and hook it together with the GFX ... or live on two years with it and escalate into another 2000bucks machine then, this one lasted almost 4 years and i got nearly every component inside discounted in some way :) .... let's wait where the RTX train is heading before i invest in new stuff