AMD Threadripper won't come with native support for NVMe-Hardware-RAID at launch

[kaiju_wars]

Just now, Cinnabar Sonar said:

I don't believe that Intel ever had a 6 core mainstream chip yet.  That's what I meant.

Bad sentence is bad, and I should feel bad, sorry.

Lol, no big deal. T'was a mistake.

No, they haven't yet though.  

[done12many2]

11 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

I understand it, and the moment they heard about Threadripper they should have scrapped the plan, soldered in the full-scale VROC dongles for free, and eaten the costs. It would have given them a major(albeit stupid because NVME RAID) bonus to the X299 platform and therefore a major selling point.

 

Agreed and that would have been great.

 

I also understand that some people are trying to imply that in order to get the same bootable RAID that will someday be available on AMD's x399, you have to pay for it with Intel's x299, which is wrong.  The equivalent bootable NVMe RAID is already free on both.  Well, will be for AMD soon enough.

 

x299 just happens to have an even faster option available, but charges for it.  You're right, should be free, but we weren't denied a feature that was available elsewhere for free.

[Nicnac]

From what I have read TR will do direct (vroc) raid. Definitely an advantage there. 

[done12many2]

Just now, Nicnac said:

From what I have read TR will do direct (vroc) raid. Definitely an advantage there. 

 

Do you mind sharing where you've researched that?  That would definitely be nice if they went with a CPU based controller.

[AnonymousGuy]

5 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

From what I have read TR will do direct (vroc) raid. Definitely an advantage there. 

Being pedantic: VROC is an Intel branding of version 5.0 and later of RSTe.

[Nicnac]

7 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

Do you mind sharing where you've researched that?  That would definitely be nice if they went with a CPU based controller.

 

The german article I linked briefly mentions it but without giving a source itself. Imma try to find and translate the passage for you. 

3 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Being pedantic: VROC is an Intel branding of version 5.0 and later of RSTe.

 

You are right, sorry about that. 

[done12many2]

1 minute ago, Nicnac said:

The german article I linked briefly mentions it but without giving a source itself. Imma try to find and translate the passage for you. 

 

Did you forget to link it?

 

Never mind, I see it tucked under the photo.  

 

I'll check it out.

[Nicnac]

6 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

Did you forget to link it?

 

Never mind, I see it tucked under the photo.  

 

I'll check it out.

It's the last paragraph:

Spoiler

Zum Vergleich: Bei Intel Skylake-X werden die M.2- und U.2-Anschlüsse üblicherweise vom X299-PCH versorgt, über den sich das genannte "BIOS-RAID" auch für NVMe-SSDs konfigurieren lässt. In extrem theoretischen Nutzungsszenarien kann die PCI-E-3.0-x4-Verbindung zur CPU limitieren, weshalb die Anbindung direkt an die CPU bei AMDs Ryzen Threadripper "schöner wirkt". Möchte man ein BIOS-RAID über die CPU realisieren, beispielsweise mit Adapter-Steckkarten von PEG x16 auf M.2, funktioniert das nur mit Intel-SSDs und auch nur als RAID 0 kostenlos. Für alle anderen Konfiguration (RAID 1, 5, 10) braucht es einen sogenannten VROC-Key ("Virtual RAID on CPU"), der zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt kostenpflichtig erhältlich sein wird.

"For comparison: intel skylake x supplies m.2 and u.2 via the x299-pch which can be configured as bios raid for nvme ssds. In very theoretical workloads this can limit the pcie 3.0 x4 connection to the CPU which is why the direct connection in amds TR  looks more attractive. ...

[done12many2]

11 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

It's the last paragraph:

  Hide contents

Zum Vergleich: Bei Intel Skylake-X werden die M.2- und U.2-Anschlüsse üblicherweise vom X299-PCH versorgt, über den sich das genannte "BIOS-RAID" auch für NVMe-SSDs konfigurieren lässt. In extrem theoretischen Nutzungsszenarien kann die PCI-E-3.0-x4-Verbindung zur CPU limitieren, weshalb die Anbindung direkt an die CPU bei AMDs Ryzen Threadripper "schöner wirkt". Möchte man ein BIOS-RAID über die CPU realisieren, beispielsweise mit Adapter-Steckkarten von PEG x16 auf M.2, funktioniert das nur mit Intel-SSDs und auch nur als RAID 0 kostenlos. Für alle anderen Konfiguration (RAID 1, 5, 10) braucht es einen sogenannten VROC-Key ("Virtual RAID on CPU"), der zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt kostenpflichtig erhältlich sein wird.

"For comparison: intel skylark x supplies m.2 and u.2 via the x299-pfh which can be configured as bios raid for nvme sees. In Gerry theoretical workloads this can limit the pics 3.0 x4 connection to the CPU which is why the direct connection in Ames from looks more attractive. ...

 

I actually read the whole article.  No where in there do they say that AMD is working on a RAID controlled by the CPU as Intel's VROC does.  They simply break down how the PCH lanes have 12 lanes (within the chipset) for use with M.2 or U.2, but that those lanes are shared with things like 10-Gbit Ethernet controllers and the like.  Standard chipset stuff.

 

Also, you can see in the second paragraph of that articale that their source was tomshardware.com which you also linked in the OP.   They also make no reference to the AMD RAID being CPU based instead of chipset.  

 

Then if you look at further at the Gigabyte mainboard vendor link that you provided, you'll note that in the manual, all of the M.2 slots are routed through the chipset, not directly to the CPU.  It would be hard to imagine a CPU based controller running those through the four lanes provided to the chipset.  If it did, there would be no benifit.  

 

Truthfully, everything actually points to AMD's future RAID being chipset based and not CPU. 

 

Quote

AMD's socket-TR4 platform is interesting for users, among other things due to the many PCI Express 3.0 lanes. 64 tracks are available, of which 48 are for the PEG slots (2 x x16 & x8 each) and four for the X399 chipset. 12 are available for three M.2 slots or U.2 connectors with four PCI Express 3.0 lanes each. Sharing takes place if, for example, a 10-Gbit Ethernet controller is connected to the CPU. For buyers who are investing in a high-end platform, RAID configurations consisting of multiple NVMe SSDs might be interesting.

 

 

[Nicnac]

2 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

I actually read the whole article.  No where in there do they say that AMD is working on a RAID controlled by the CPU as Intel's VROC does.  They simply break down how the PCH lanes have 12 lanes for use with M.2 or U.2, but that those lanes are shared with things like 10-Gbit Ethernet controllers and the like.  Standard chipset stuff.

 

Also, you can see in the second paragraph of that articale that their source was tomshardware.com which you also linked in the OP.   They also make no reference to the AMD RAID being CPU based instead of chipset.  

 

Then if you look at further at the Gigabyte mainboard vendor link that you provided, you'll note that in the manual, all of the M.2 slots are routed through the chipset, not directly to the CPU.  It would be hard to imagine a CPU based controller running those through the four lanes provided to the chipset.  If it did, there would be no benifit.  

 

Truthfully, everything actually points to AMD's future RAID being chipset based and not CPU. 

 

 

 

I got a lot of typos in there lol. Guess I was confused by them calling the connection to the CPU "direct". 

Thanks for clarifying!

[done12many2]

Just now, Nicnac said:

I got a lot of typos in there lol. Guess I was confused by them calling the connection to the CPU "direct". 

Thanks for clarifying!

 

Yeah, no sweat man.  Thanks for sharing this stuff as it's always good to see what's out there.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

On 8/8/2017 at 9:51 AM, tom_w141 said:

You obviously haven't met too many enthusiasts XD. When you do something for a hobby just because you can it doesn't actually have to yield any meaningful returns/benefits. You are enthusiastic about the subject and therefore are willing to buy things you don't need just like any other hobby.

 

I don't think buying things (especially useless ones) amounts to "enthusiasm" unless your hobby is shopping.

[leadeater]

31 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

 

I don't think buying things (especially useless ones) amounts to "enthusiasm" unless your hobby is shopping.

Damn, I'm going to have to hand my enthusiast membership card in .

[The Benjamins]

5 hours ago, done12many2 said:

 

I'm not quite sure that you fully understand how CPU based RAID (VROC) or chipset RAID work on x299.

 

You've reference that Intel is "putting things behind paywalls", but you already know that chipset RAID is included for free.  CPU based RAID (VROC) is the part that's not free.  Of course VROC will bypass the DMI 3.0 bandwidth limitation and allow for full speeds on each NVMe device.  

 

My question is, are you assuming that AMD's RAID will somehow function through the CPU and not the chipset?  This would imply that there's already a controller built into the TR chips as they are on Skylake-X.  If there isn't a physical RAID controller on the TR CPU, it would be impossible for them to add it at a later date.  With that said, it's more likely that the RAID feature that AMD is making available in the future is actually through the chipset, and therefore just as worthless as the free bootable chipset RAID on x299 via the chipset.  How would this make AMD's free version any better?   It doesn't.

 

Intel's VROC would be in addition to the chipset RAID that Intel's x299 currently has and AMD's x399 will eventually have.  It's the only solution that will allow a bootable RAID that bypasses the limitations of funneling all of that bandwidth through 4 chipset lanes.  It does suck that you have to pay for it, but once again, Intel's free RAID solution is no worse then AMD's free future RAID solution.  

 

I think too many people to include Linus are harping on Intel's x299 RAID without fully understanding what it is that they are talking about.  

I said AMD does not have the feature, as is CPU NVME raid. I never said that AMD chipset raid was better or as good as Intel's CPU raid.

 

All I said was that people are mad at Intel that they lock out features on a CPU that you must pay extra to unlock. And that. Chipset raid for NVME drives can be very bottle necked.

[done12many2]

 

22 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

It is fine that AMD does not have the tech.

 

The fuck intel is for putting things behind paywalls, IF intel made it free and AMD didn't have it we would be "mad" at AMD that they do not have these hot new feature.

 

7 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

I said AMD does not have the feature, as is CPU NVME raid. I never said that AMD chipset raid was better or as good as Intel's CPU raid.

 

All I said was that people are mad at Intel that they lock out features on a CPU that you must pay extra to unlock. And that. Chipset raid for NVME drives can be very bottle necked.

 

I meant to direct the CPU NVMe RAID at some other folks, but failed to do that.  I'm sorry about that. 

 

People are upset with VROC mostly due to the fact that every YouTube reviewer to include Linus stated that there will be NO bootable RAID without purchasing a VROC key.  They didn't mention that bootable RAID was still available through the chipset.  They either didn't know what the fuck they were talking about or they intentionally sensationalized the issue for the sake of the drama that increases views.  They just simply pissed off the world by stating that bootable RAID was going to cost more money.

 

As a result of this poorly delivered information, most people, who weren't even in the market for x299 or x399 for that matter, turned the fact that they thought bootable RAID was going to cost more money into a worldwide catastrophe.  Most people still think this is the case. 

 

The free and included RAID for x299 and x399 will be the exact same thing performance wise once x399 actually gets RAID.  If Intel wants to charge money for a more advanced RAID option that surpasses what's available for free currently on x299 and possibly in the future for x399, I wouldn't exactly call that "putting it behind paywalls".   

 

Despite the fact that AMD is providing NO RAID option at launch, with only a rumors of it coming later, we remain mad at Intel for providing us a bootable RAID option via the chipset, but not including a bootable RAID via the CPU for free. 

 

Pretty soon, we're going to be mad at motherboard manufacturers for the fact that a lot of x399 boards available at launch won't even be capable of allowing you to use all of the CPU PCIe lanes that were included with your Threadripper CPU purchase because there was only so much room on the board.  

 

This is LTT.  We (to include myself) love to complain and talk about shit that doesn't even really matter.  

[The Benjamins]

6 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

 

 

I meant to direct the CPU NVMe RAID at some other folks, but failed to do that.  I'm sorry about that. 

 

People are upset with VROC mostly due to the fact that every YouTube reviewer to include Linus stated that there will be NO bootable RAID without purchasing a VROC key.  They didn't mention that bootable RAID was still available through the chipset.  They either didn't know what the fuck they were talking about or they intentionally sensationalized the issue for the sake of the drama that increases views.  They just simply pissed off the world by stating that bootable RAID was going to cost more money.

 

As a result of this poorly delivered information, most people, who weren't even in the market for x299 or x399 for that matter, turned the fact that they thought bootable RAID was going to cost more money into a worldwide catastrophe.  Most people still think this is the case. 

 

The free and included RAID for x299 and x399 will be the exact same thing performance wise once x399 actually gets RAID.  If Intel wants to charge money for a more advanced RAID option that surpasses what's available for free currently on x299 and possibly in the future for x399, I wouldn't exactly call that "putting it behind paywalls".   

 

Despite the fact that AMD is providing NO RAID option at launch, with only a rumors of it coming later, we remain mad at Intel for providing us a bootable RAID option via the chipset, but not including a bootable RAID via the CPU for free. 

 

Pretty soon, we're going to be mad at motherboard manufacturers for the fact that a lot of x399 boards available at launch won't even be capable of allowing you to use all of the CPU PCIe lanes that were included with your Threadripper CPU purchase because there was only so much room on the board.  

 

This is LTT.  We (to include myself) love to complain and talk about shit that doesn't even really matter.  

Fair point, I knew that chipset raid was still bootable.

 

I think manufactures selling boards that don't use all the PCIe lanes is fine if it is for some valid reason like the size of board or cutting cost that the consumer sees.

[done12many2]

1 minute ago, The Benjamins said:

Fair point, I knew that chipset raid was still bootable.

 

I think manufactures selling boards that don't use all the PCIe lanes is fine if it is for some valid reason like the size of board or cutting cost that the consumer sees.

 

Out of curiosity, do you know of any x399 board besides the Asus Zenith Extreme, which will allow you to take advantage of all the CPU PCIe lanes provided by Threadripper?  I've added up a few of them, but the Zenith is the only one I've found so far.  

[The Benjamins]

4 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know of any x399 board besides the Asus Zenith Extreme, which will allow you to take advantage of all the CPU PCIe lanes provided by Threadripper?  I've added up a few of them, but the Zenith is the only one I've found so far.  

both of the Asrock boards do AFAIK. they have 2 x16 2 x8 3 x4 (NVME) and then the last 4 is for the chipset, which has sata, USB 3.1, PCIe2 x4,x1, 10Gbe (Fatal1ty)

 

I also think the gigabyte one also has the same 2 x16 2 x8  3x4 (NVME) setup

 

EDIT: most of the boards I look at have all 3 NVME spots to the CPU

[done12many2]

 

25 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

both of the Asrock boards do AFAIK. they have 2 x16 2 x8 3 x4 (NVME) and then the last 4 is for the chipset, which has sata, USB 3.1, PCIe2 x4,x1, 10Gbe (Fatal1ty)

 

I also think the gigabyte one also has the same 2 x16 2 x8  3x4 (NVME) setup

 

See the problem with that math on the AsRock boards is that when the x16 lanes are loaded, the best you can do is x16 + x8 + x16 + x8 for a total of 48.  Then add the x1 slot for 49.  The M.2 slots are routed through the chipset (they support SATA M.2 as well) so they are part of the 4 chipset lanes in the 60 + 4 equation.  10 Gb is through the chipset as well and we're out of slots?

 

I already did the math on the Gigabyte board and it didn't use them all either.

 

Come to think of it.  If all of the M.2 slots on the Asus Zenith Extreme are routed through the chipset, you want be able to use all the CPU PCIe lanes on that board either.  Even with the PCIe add-in 10 Gb card installed into one of the PCIe slots.  

 

AsRock Slots:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kukielka]

7 hours ago, TechyInAZ said:

NVME SSD's alone are so fast, why RAID them??

You know there are more types of raid, other than raid 0, right?

[The Benjamins]

7 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

See the problem with that math on the AsRock boards is that when the x16 lanes are loaded, the best you can do is x16 + x8 + x16 + x8 for a total of 48.  Then add the x1 slot for 49.  The M.2 slots are routed through the chipset (they support SATA M.2 as well) so they are part of the 4 chipset lanes in the 60 + 4 equation.  10 Gb is through the chipset as well and we're out of slots?

 

I already did the math on the Gigabyte board and it didn't use them all either.

 

Come to think of it.  If all of the M.2 slots on the Asus Zenith Extreme are routed through the chipset, you want be able to use all the CPU PCIe lanes on that board either.  Even with the PCIe add-in 10 Gb card installed into one of the PCIe slots.  

 

AsRock Slots:

 

the 3 M.2 are to the CPU, on the Asus manual it says they support PCIe and SATA on all 3 that are fed by the CPU.

 

The x1 slot is a PCIe gen 2 from the chipset, the 10Gbe is from the chipset.

 

not Ryzen x370 diagrams also show that the CPU based M.2 supports NVME and SATA

 

So this is what I am going with 

2 x16

2 x8

3 x4 (NVME or SATA)

 which is 60 and everything else is though the chipset which has x4 link.

[done12many2]

6 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

the 3 M.2 are to the CPU, on the Asus manual it says they support PCIe and SATA on all 3 that are fed by the CPU.

 

The x1 slot is a PCIe gen 2 from the chipset, the 10Gbe is from the chipset.

 

not Ryzen x370 diagrams also show that the CPU based M.2 supports NVME and SATA

 

So this is what I am going with 

2 x16

2 x8

3 x4 (NVME or SATA)

 which is 60 and everything else is though the chipset which has x4 link.

 

What you aren't seeing is that in order for those 3 x M.2 slots to support SATA and NVMe, they have to be routed through the chipset. This means they share the 4 chipset lanes off the CPU. This is also how AMD will more than likely be able to RAID them with chipset RAID in the future. 

 

You can further tell that they are routed through the chipset because if you use the U.2 port, you lose one of the M.2 ports. 

 

Like I said, that means 49 total including the use of the single x1 slot.  

 

 

[The Benjamins]

11 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

What you aren't seeing is that in order for those 3 x M.2 slots to support SATA and NVMe, they have to be routed through the chipset. This means they share the 4 chipset lanes off I'd the CPU. This is also how AMD will more than likely be able to RAID them with chipset RAID in the future. 

 

You can further tell that they are routed through the chipset because if you use the U.2 port, you lose one of the M.2 ports. 

 

Like I said, that means 49 total including the use of the single x1 slot.  

 

 

 

Ryzen has on die SATA support.

 

 

From the ASUS manual it shows that it supports SATA THROUGH the CPU not chipset. every X399 board has the M.2 routed to the CPU NOT the chipset.

 

A x370 diagram from ASUS shows it has SATA support on CPU.

 

so again 48 used for "GPUs" 12 used for NVME drives which equals 60 used.

 

EDIT: I went over the ASUS manual here a bit

 

[Ezio Auditore]

On 8/8/2017 at 2:33 PM, tom_w141 said:

Nice quote. Were you going to... comment?

If you notice it is the same quote as in the original post just fixed for night theme users. No respect for good people these days......

[done12many2]

1 minute ago, The Benjamins said:

Ryzen has on die SATA support.

 

 

From the ASUS manual it shows that it supports SATA THROUGH the CPU not chipset. every X399 board has the M.2 routed to the CPU NOT the chipset.

 

A x370 diagram from ASUS shows it has SATA support on CPU.

 

so again 48 used for "GPUs" 12 used for NVME drives which equals 60 used.

 

Thanks for that.  

 

Learning has occurred.  It's going to be interesting to see how they end up doing RAID via the CPU.