i7-4770k heat issues

[BlackEternity]

Hi there,

 

I'm tearing my hair out over this issue.

Situation is as follows: 

My PC is 4,5 years old. System was bought on Jan 2014. Spec is:

- Intel Core i7-4770k

- ASRock z87 Extreme6/ac

- Gigabyte GTX1080

- 16GB Corsair RAM

- SSD & HDD

- Case: Antec P280

 

Cooling solution is Air - Scythe Mugen 4.

I never really did much with the system in terms of "caring". Regular cleaning and dusting but no fancy tearing everything apart and re-doing everything.

Works fine. Last week, the bug bit me and I wanted to tinker around with the system - just because.

Fired up AIDA64 and got these results immediately:

 

Looks like something is not right.

Funny thing is: Around 50°C idle and immediate 80+ when hitting it with a load - doesn't matter if synthetic like AIDA or gaming. 

Thought about my Fan-Curve but it's fine. The Mugen can push 1.400u/min and sits at 1.1 at idle and 1.38 at load. 

 

I re-applied thermal paste because I thought it might have dried out - again the system is 4 years old.

Re-Applied Arctic Silver 5. Same temps. Nothing changed. And it's not too much paste - I know that.

 

I thought of liquid cooling but right now it's not the cheapest of deals I can have.

I googled around and have seen people say the 4770k sits around 60+ under full load.

To be honest: I don't remember what the temps were when I initially built the system but they couldn't be that high - otherwise I would have changed something to begin with.

This is my 6th or 7th build - so I know a bit about that stuff :-S

 

PS: Room temp is around 26°C and my case is not too small or unsufficient ventilated.

 

EDIT says:

No OC - Stock i7-4770k @3.89Ghz. :-)

 

Cheers,

Edited August 29, 2018 by BlackEternity
Added no OC info.

[Snipergod87]

considering my 4770k immediately thermal throttles (Prime95 with AVX on) @ 4ghz (no voltage change), with a NH-D14 I consider your temps good.

Remember they use a TIM between the IHS and the die as opposed to solder, which can increase temps by 20C.

 

I think there is something wrong with my cooler mounting or something

[WoodenMarker]

If you mean 1.38v, that's high and temps are normal. Lower your core voltage. Stock should be ~1.2v

[BlackEternity]

@WoodenMarker: Oh no I meant the fan speed. it sits around 1.100u/min in idle and under load it ramps up to 1.380 or so. So nearly max.

Voltages and clocks are stock. Never tinkered around with that.

 

@Snipergod87: Really? Mine doesn't throttle but it seems awfully high - again I built the system years ago but I think I would have spotted that when setting up.

I've read around the TIM but couldn't find anything great relating to the 4770k and if it has such issues aswell.

All I could find is an old youtube video where someone shows how it's done and says that it helped him cool it down 5° or so.

 

I already thought of delidding and applying my Arctic Silver - but then again I would need to buy the delid- and relid tools. And I don't want to throw money out if it won't help properly.

I know the TDP is rated for 85° and I know that this processor can pack some heat - but that is would be 40° more than the i5 in the system of my GF? Sounds a bit harsh to me. 

 

Would Delidding help out here? I've seen Linus' Videos about that stuff and I would probably try it - but if the 4770k is "not bad enough" in terms of crappy TIM, I'm not sure if that would be a way to go.

 

[WoodenMarker]

8 hours ago, Snipergod87 said:

Remember they use a TIM between the IHS and the die as opposed to solder, which can increase temps by 20C.

Delidding drastically lowers temps due to the removal of the gap caused by the adhesive around the die as opposed to the TIM on top of the die. 

 

19 minutes ago, BlackEternity said:

@WoodenMarker: Oh no I meant the fan speed. it sits around 1.100u/min in idle and under load it ramps up to 1.380 or so. So nearly max.

Voltages and clocks are stock. Never tinkered around with that.

 

I already thought of delidding and applying my Arctic Silver - but then again I would need to buy the delid- and relid tools. And I don't want to throw money out if it won't help properly.

I know the TDP is rated for 85° and I know that this processor can pack some heat - but that is would be 40° more than the i5 in the system of my GF? Sounds a bit harsh to me. 

Ah, it would help clarify if you mention units of measurement like rpm in the future. 

Stock voltage settings are left at Auto which often uses more voltage than necessary. What's the core voltage at with software like CPU-Z during a stress test?

Delidding can be easily done with a vice but I wouldn't recommend it without being fully aware of the risks of damaging the cpu. That being said, it's always worked fine for me and is fairly easy to do. With enough mounting pressure, it definitely makes a big difference -- generally closer to a 20c drop at load rather than 5c.

The 4770k has a TDP of 84 watts. Thermal design power is a measure of the maximum amount of heat that needs to be dissipated by the cooler. It isn't measured in degrees. As for safe operating temperatures, core temps are fine up to 80-90c at load. At 105c, it shuts down to prevent damage. 

Temperature rises and lowers depending on how quickly the heat can be removed and isn't a measure of how much heat is produced. The i5 for example can run hotter than the i7 if it had worse cooling.  

 

In order for tags to work, you have to click the member's name in the dropdown menu.

[BlackEternity]

Thanks for the clarification.

Sorry I didn't had a coffee to start my day - so yeah TDP is totally Watts. Not sure what went through my head there.

Regarding the 20c drop: You mean to completely run the i7 without the heatspreader or just re-applying proper thermal paste?

 

I need to check the Voltage-settings later when I get home. I wanted to check UEFI yesterday night but unfortunately, my USB won't work when I enter UEFI and sadly, I need to dig up a PS2 keyboard from somewhere :-D

You say that the stock Voltages are often higher than they should be. So in theory I could lower them without loss?

A long time ago I used that stuff to downclock my CPU at my HTPC to let it run cooler because I didn't need the power. 

Again: I will check voltages when I get home so I can paint a full picture here.

[WoodenMarker]

21 minutes ago, BlackEternity said:

Regarding the 20c drop: You mean to completely run the i7 without the heatspreader or just re-applying proper thermal paste?

You say that the stock Voltages are often higher than they should be. So in theory I could lower them without loss?

The IHS is generally reattached with liquid metal between the IHS and die. Liquid metal is used since normal thermal paste tends to pump out quickly due to temperature changes. Coolers are installed as normal on top with normal thermal paste. The IHS is mostly copper so it doesn't impede cooling much and protects the die from cracking. It also retains most of the original cpu height so that coolers don't need major mounting adjustments. It's usually a ~20c drop with or without the IHS. 

Yes, you can generally set a lower manual voltage for the same clocks. 

 

Make sure to quote a post or tag a member when replying or else they won't get a notification that you replied to them.

[EsaT]

Though volts are certainly high without overclocking.

 

Might be also that toothpaste penny pinching Intel used to replace soldering heatpsreader is going bad.

Some people have had 4790Ks starting to run hotter and hotter regardless of cooling system after being years stable.

So delidding and new TIM might improve situation without messing with liquid metals.

 

 

[BlackEternity]

@EsaT yeah - The liquid metal part freaks me out a tiny bit. It's my only CPU I have right now so I need to keep sane and not try to jump into extremes here.

Again the system was never overclocked. I will check the voltages for sure and set them to something around 1.1 or so. Just to make sure they aren't the culprit of this heat. And after that I can check for delidding if it won't help. 

 

I thought of the TIM going bad and dry aswell - that's why I'm not completely against delidding. 

The system is stable and totally fine but I think that 80°C is a bit much for my taste. Don't need ambient temperature on my cores but something around 60+ would be neat. At least that is what reviews from back then show as reasonable.

 

[WoodenMarker]

11 minutes ago, EsaT said:

Some people have had 4790Ks starting to run hotter and hotter regardless of cooling system after being years stable.

So delidding and new TIM might improve situation without messing with liquid metals.

Rising temps could be from core voltage creeping up over time to maintain the same clocks as the cpu degrades.

Most pastes pump out after ~2 weeks or so when used under the IHS and temps return to pre-delid. Few pastes remain good under the IHS and the original TIM is one of them. 

[EsaT]

15 minutes ago, BlackEternity said:

The system is stable and totally fine but I think that 80°C is a bit much for my taste. Don't need ambient temperature on my cores but something around 60+ would be neat. At least that is what reviews from back then show as reasonable.

For chronically undersized Intel's stock noise maker 80C wouldn't be unusual, but for Mugen 4 it's definitely too much.

Wouldn't myself like CPU running that hot.

[BlackEternity]

47 minutes ago, EsaT said:

For chronically undersized Intel's stock noise maker 80C wouldn't be unusual, but for Mugen 4 it's definitely too much.

Wouldn't myself like CPU running that hot.

Yeah I thought the same.

I also thought about the Mugen having an issue with it's heatpipes - but unfortunately I can't check that. Not as far as I know.

There are no nicks, scratches or so but maybe the endcaps are not sealed and leaked over time and some or all pipes are empty or so. Don't know. It just seems awfully high.

But right now I will check the voltages on there and see where that brings me.

Unfortunately, I have to use a PS/2 keyboard for the UEFI because it won't power USB ... :-(

 

Will post later when I get voltage-readings and maybe lowered the voltages if they seem way too high.

[BlackEternity]

Alright @EsaT and @WoodenMarker:
Thanks for your patience. And sorry for double posting.

 

I checked the voltages with CPU-Z and this is the result:

Idle:

 

Full Load AIDA64:

 

Spikes up to 1.3V.

I just set the VCore to fixed and put 1.1V in.

Now the CPU is fixed at 3.85Ghz and I'm running around 10° cooler.

 

While I was at it I checked the Voltage-Dropoff compensation. Sits at level 5 - so lowest level possible. I think it would ramp even higher if I would give it the chance.

Is there anything I can do to fix this high base-VCore? Because I would like to let the CPU clock down when in Idle but if it's not an option, I can deal with that.

 

Now my AIDA-Temps show this:

 

 

Are you guys seeing something else that I can do to keep my clocks but mitigate a bit more of the heat?

 

Thanks for all the lovely help so far.

[EsaT]

Don't disable power saving modes in BIOS and use balanced power profile in Windows to drop CPU clocks under low loads.

[BlackEternity]

59 minutes ago, EsaT said:

Don't disable power saving modes in BIOS and use balanced power profile in Windows to drop CPU clocks under low loads.

I haven't disabled anything. I just set the vsync to a set value and thus it's now stuck at 1.179V as you can see above and utilizes that. If I let VSync back to "Auto" it ramps it up to the above  values and gets 10C hotter. :-(

[WoodenMarker]

Temps are still high but it's not too surprising with a case as restrictive as the P280. 

If you haven't already, you can probably tighten the cooler mount some more. The HMPS mounting hardware on the Mugen 4 allows for overtightening which means potentially much better performance. Did you buy the cooler past January 2016? If so, the cooler may have come with an additional washer set for LGA 1151 to prevent over-tightening but would result in poorer performance if used on 1150.

[BlackEternity]

51 minutes ago, WoodenMarker said:

Temps are still high but it's not too surprising with a case as restrictive as the P280. 

If you haven't already, you can probably tighten the cooler mount some more. The HMPS mounting hardware on the Mugen 4 allows for overtightening which means potentially much better performance. Did you buy the cooler past January 2016? If so, the cooler may have come with an additional washer set for LGA 1151 to prevent over-tightening but would result in poorer performance if used on 1150.

Restrictive? Always thought it's decent sized and had enough airflow.

 

Got the Mugen 4 back in 2014 when I built the PC. Whole rig is from that date. Assembled it, changed the HPU from a GZX 770 to a 1080 and that's it. Cleaned it here and there.

I already tightened the cooler as far as I feel comfortable - Hand-tight plus a half-turn. Has always worked like a charm and I'm not sure why that would change with this cooler.

 

I'm not sure what I should do.

I lowered the VCore to 1.1V and it's okayish. Doesn't underclock and stays around 70 when gaming. But it won't throttle down when in Idle. But then again Idle meant 1.2V - so technically I'm lower on consumption when set fixed?

Or am I overlooking something?

[WoodenMarker]

1 minute ago, BlackEternity said:

Restrictive? Always thought it's decent sized and had enough airflow.

Got the Mugen 4 back in 2014 when I built the PC. Whole rig is from that date. Assembled it, changed the HPU from a GZX 770 to a 1080 and that's it. Cleaned it here and there.

I already tightened the cooler as far as I feel comfortable - Hand-tight plus a half-turn. Has always worked like a charm and I'm not sure why that would change with this cooler.

I lowered the VCore to 1.1V and it's okayish. Doesn't underclock and stays around 70 when gaming. But it won't throttle down when in Idle. But then again Idle meant 1.2V - so technically I'm lower on consumption when set fixed?

The airflow is okay at best and benefits from adding some front intakes. https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/antec-p280-review/3/

Are you using the stock case fan configuration?

The Mugen 4 mounting hardware can overtighten unlike many other coolers which means it can perform much better or worse depending on tightening. Here's an example of the Fuma which uses the same HMPS mounting system with performance ranging greatly depending on tightening: https://www.overclockers.com/scythe-fuma-heatsink-review/

If you're fine with stock clocks, undervolting is good.

[BlackEternity]

9 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

The airflow is okay at best and benefits from adding some front intakes. https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/antec-p280-review/3/

Are you using the stock case fan configuration?

The Mugen 4 mounting hardware can overtighten unlike many other coolers which means it can perform much better or worse depending on tightening. Here's an example of the Fuma which uses the same HMPS mounting system with performance ranging greatly depending on tightening: https://www.overclockers.com/scythe-fuma-heatsink-review/

If you're fine with stock clocks, undervolting is good.

Thanks for the links.
Yeah I run the stock coolers with the case on low settings - nothing really changes if I put them to high - except the Noise. 

Okay I will try to mount it a bit tighter and see what I can do with that. 

Well I'm okay with stock voltages for now because I initially wanted to boost the system a bit until I saw the crazy temperatures.

 

What would you recommend as the next steps to properly start to tackle these temps? 

Would a watercooling loop from something like EKWB help out to lower the temps properly under load?

My "dream" is to have a custom loop for GPU and CPU - but if I can't properly cool the CPU in the first place because it's just a hot piece of tech, I'm not sure I want to shell out quite a hefty amount of money in an attempt to bring temps down.

[WoodenMarker]

14 hours ago, BlackEternity said:

What would you recommend as the next steps to properly start to tackle these temps? 

Would a watercooling loop from something like EKWB help out to lower the temps properly under load?

My "dream" is to have a custom loop for GPU and CPU - but if I can't properly cool the CPU in the first place because it's just a hot piece of tech, I'm not sure I want to shell out quite a hefty amount of money in an attempt to bring temps down.

I'd tighten the cooler first since there's much cooling potential that can be had. In some cases, it can tighten so much that it prevents the system from posting until loosened a bit. Better cooling like a custom loop would achieve similar results but that seems excessive for a 4770k that isn't even oc'ed. If you haven't already, try moving the top exhausts to the front for intake instead and see if that helps.

[Mick Naughty]

Could delid and do regular tim. 

Did the same for my 3770k. Prolly end up doing it to current cpus here soon. 

Dropped about 15+c per core. 

[BlackEternity]

Thanks for the input so far @Mick Naughty and @WoodenMarker

Yesterday I tinkered around with it - I tightened that stuff as far as I feel really, and I mean REALLY comfortable. I double checked the metal spacing-screws that mount directly through the PCB to the back-bracket and saw that one was somewhat loose. I tightened it and then applied as much pressure as I could to the Mugen 4. I dropped 3°C.

Still sitting around 38 - 42°c idle and ramping up to the "usual" 67 - 70°c that I get now with the fixed 1.1V at the vcore.

 

When I disassembled everything the first time before posting here, I thought that maybe the CPU cooler has gone bad. It's a heatpipe-design - so maybe the heatpipes sprung a leak or weren't properly sealed at the tops so something could evaporate over the years?

 

To follow that lead, I just did a test.

I whipped out my Multimeter with a temperature-probe. Right now I'm sitting in the room with 21°c ambient temp. The AIDA Temps show 32-35°c on all cores in idle.

When I start the stress-test, the AIDA-readouts on the CPU jump up to 65-69°c.

But - and this is a big one: The CPU tower AND every single heatpipe are cool. Not one feels warm to the touch. When I probe then with my Multimeter, these are the results:

Every single heatpipe AND the fins reach 30°c as max temps.

My GTX 1080 that is in idle with 44°C on the core gets the same temps when I probe the backplate-shield.

 

The Mugen 4 has intake-temps at 22°c at the fan and 24°c at the exhaust right behind the cooler. So there is no big heat-transfer happening between the CPU and the cooler. At least from what I can tell. I did the last "poking around with a finger in my case to check temps" back then when we had AMD Athlon XP 2800 CPUs. But I think the general thing applies here aswell. Stuff gets hot, cooler gets hot.

But not like this one.

Just for giggles I used Heaven to burn my GPU and check the temp-differences with the stock-cooler on there to see how big the delta can get. 

Remember - the temps between GPU and CPU under idle and load are somewhat comparable for my case.

Results:

 

- GTX 1080 Idle: 44°c at low fan speeds. Cooler-Probe: 33°c

- GTX 1080 Full load: 68°c with 60% Fanspeed. Cooler-Probe sits around 58°c.

So there is a ton of heat-exchange happening when I burn my GPU and probe the fin-stack. But not with the CPU tower.

I'm thinking of buying a new Mugen, but unfortunately I can only find the Mugen 5b. It looks like the same mounting-bracket. Just with spring-screws. Does anyone know if it would fit the Mugen 4 plate that is installed? If not I could switch to something different completely - Mainboard is accessible from both sides so swapping the plate should be okay.

[WoodenMarker]

8 minutes ago, BlackEternity said:

But - and this is a big one: The CPU tower AND every single heatpipe are cool. Not one feels warm to the touch. When I probe then with my Multimeter, these are the results:

Every single heatpipe AND the fins reach 30°c as max temps.

So there is a ton of heat-exchange happening when I burn my GPU and probe the fin-stack. But not with the CPU tower.

I'm thinking of buying a new Mugen, but unfortunately I can only find the Mugen 5b. It looks like the same mounting-bracket. Just with spring-screws. Does anyone know if it would fit the Mugen 4 plate that is installed? If not I could switch to something different completely - Mainboard is accessible from both sides so swapping the plate should be okay.

Your temps seem normal and indicate a working cooler.

If a heatsink is warm or hot to the touch, that means it's failing to dissipate the heat. This springs true more so when the heatsink or heatpipe is far away from its heat source. The reason why the graphics card heatsink is so much warmer is because it's smaller, closer to the heat source, and heat isn't being removed as efficiently. Heatpipes have a hot end and a cool end. Large cpu heatsinks should be cool or barely warm to the touch.

Some examples: 

https://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/noctua_ppc_fans/3.htm

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/5v0q46/flir_thermal_pic_of_my_new_cooler_noctua_nhd15s/

https://www.modders-inc.com/scythe-fuma-cpu-cooler-review/4/

Notice that everything including the motherboard is much warmer than the cpu heatsink. Graphics cards run much hotter.

 

The mounting hardware looks slightly different between the Mugen 4 and 5 Rev B although they might be functionally the same.

Spoiler

 

There are some hot 4770k's and you might have gotten unlucky with yours due to the adhesive under the IHS. Delidding would fix that and would make a bigger difference than anything else when properly mounted. 

[BlackEternity]

6 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

Your temps seem normal and indicate a working cooler.

If a heatsink is warm or hot to the touch, that means it's failing to dissipate the heat. This springs true more so when the heatsink or heatpipe is far away from its heat source. The reason why the graphics card heatsink is so much warmer is because it's smaller, closer to the heat source, and heat isn't being removed as efficiently. Heatpipes have a hot end and a cool end. Large cpu heatsinks should be cool or barely warm to the touch.

Some examples: 

https://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/noctua_ppc_fans/3.htm

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/5v0q46/flir_thermal_pic_of_my_new_cooler_noctua_nhd15s/

https://www.modders-inc.com/scythe-fuma-cpu-cooler-review/4/

Notice that everything including the motherboard is much warmer than the cpu heatsink. Graphics cards run much hotter.

 

The mounting hardware looks slightly different between the Mugen 4 and 5 Rev B although they might be functionally the same.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

There are some hot 4770k's and you might have gotten unlucky with yours due to the adhesive under the IHS. Delidding would fix that and would make a bigger difference than anything else when properly mounted. 

Thanks for the insight.

I did some final tests in this matter.

Because I installed a AIO liquid cooler in the computer of my GF, I decided to butcher up her Mugen 3 and used that fan as a second fan on the Mugen 4 (Push/Pull config). 

I dropped about 2°C so I'm down to 72°C under full load from AIDA64. 

Which is ... okay-ish I guess.

For fun and giggles I went into the UEFI and set the Auto-Overclock to a solid 4.4Ghz just to see what happens.

The temps spike up to 91°C. So Overclocking (my initial goal before I saw these temps and why I started this thread in the first place) is out the window.

 

I even checked with different airflow in the case (additional fans, reverded airflow and even open case) - Nothing changes more than 1°C. 

Because I will buy a new case in the near future and I think of heading for watercooling, I might opt for that route and IF my temps are not to my likings, I will delid that beast. 

 

Any good info and reads about delidding? 

I'm not THAT afraid of cracking it open. What spooks me out way more is the liquid metal part of that solution :-(

 

Cheers,

[WoodenMarker]

2 hours ago, BlackEternity said:

For fun and giggles I went into the UEFI and set the Auto-Overclock to a solid 4.4Ghz just to see what happens.

The temps spike up to 91°C. So Overclocking (my initial goal before I saw these temps and why I started this thread in the first place) is out the window.

 

I even checked with different airflow in the case (additional fans, reverded airflow and even open case) - Nothing changes more than 1°C. 

Because I will buy a new case in the near future and I think of heading for watercooling, I might opt for that route and IF my temps are not to my likings, I will delid that beast. 

 

Any good info and reads about delidding? 

I'm not THAT afraid of cracking it open. What spooks me out way more is the liquid metal part of that solution :-(

If you want to oc, do it manually. Leaving voltage at Auto is a good way to get high temps. If temps are fine at 1.2v, start with that and 4.2ghz. If that works, you can adjust clocks and voltage from there and test for stability. Temps should be fine up to 1.25-1.3v but you can test for them as you go.

 

This is how I delid: 

There are delidding tools that make the process safer but I don't personally see the need. https://rockitcool.myshopify.com/

As for applying liquid metal and relidding: