Irrelevant post

[Sernefarian]

9 minutes ago, Spotty said:

 

9 minutes ago, Spotty said:

A 1080ti does not, and cannot, draw 700W from the PSU.
A 1080ti has 2x 8pin connectors. Each 8 pin connector delivers up to 150W, and the PCIe lane can deliver up to 75W. That is a total max power draw of 375W.

Most cards are bios locked to draw less than that, depends on the manufacturer and card but typically between 300-330W will be the maximum that the bios will allow for the power limit even with overclocking.

Not all manufacturers release the power draw information for their cards, but here it is listed on the EVGA website:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=11G-P4-6696-KR

You can increase the power limit beyond that for overclocking, but most cap it at 120%. That will put the 280W cards at around 335W.

@STRMfrmXMN & @Stefan Payne can I get some help explaining that a single 1080ti will not draw 700W from a PSU and that 'a 1080ti won't work with a 750W psu you need to get a 1070 instead' is wrong.

Check the article linked, watch some videos. Learn. 280W-335W as average draw = yes. 280-335 as maximum millisecond peak draw = no.

 

As far as the will it work question a 1080TI WILL work with a freaking 550W psu as long as it can also feed the rest of the system, do I recommend it? Nope. Will the 550W PSU last beyond warranty in that scenario? My money is on no, no it won't. Will it have the necessary connectors to fully power the 1080TI? Maybe, but probably not.

[STRMfrmXMN]

6 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

Check the article linked, watch some videos. Learn. 280W-335W as average draw = yes. 280-335 as maximum millisecond peak draw = no.

 

As far as the will it work question a 1080TI WILL work with a freaking 550W psu as long as it can also feed the rest of the system, do I recommend it? Nope. Will the 550W PSU last beyond warranty in that scenario? My money is on no, no it won't. Will it have the necessary connectors to fully power the 1080TI? Maybe, but probably not.

A 550W PSU can run any non-HEDT system with tons of OC just fine. Here's a very heavily OC'd 1080 Ti drawing 340W

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_geforce_gtx_1080_ti_lightning_z_review,8.html

 

And here's an not overclocked 8700K. It draws roughly 86W without OC

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11859/the-anandtech-coffee-lake-review-8700k-and-8400-initial-numbers/5

 

With OC, you generally want to double that since any increase in voltage on a hexacore chip will add a ton of power draw. Even still, that will run on a quality 550W unit. Also, the vast majority of 550W PSUs will have the connections necessary for a 1080 Ti. A freaking 50 dollar CX450M has the connections for one...

[STRMfrmXMN]

15 minutes ago, HayHay said:

I mean the fact that he's using a 75hz monitor with a 1080Ti is kinda overkill, as well as his case choice etc.

Heck, he was originally not going to get any fans cause he forgot about em.

 

I did get him to downgrade to a 1080 at least and he's finally fixing a lot of his mistakes like terrible fans with a low cfm, a chocking case, a terrible psu. 

Ah, well yes, for a 75 Hz 1080P system a GTX 1060 would be plenty, but that's his money he's wasting.

[Spotty]

2 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

3840 x 2160 <- resolution of 4k monitors. 1920+1920 = 3840. You lose.

 

Check the article linked, watch some videos. Learn. 280W-335W as average draw = yes. 280-335 as maximum millisecond peak draw = no.

 

As far as the will it work question a 1080TI WILL work with a freaking 550W psu as long as it can also feed the rest of the system, do I recommend it? Nope. Will the 550W PSU last beyond warranty in that scenario? My money is on no, no it won't. Will it have the necessary connectors to fully power the 1080TI? Maybe, but probably not.

@STRMfrmXMN now do you see why I summoned you?

A 1920x1080 + 1920x1080 monitor = 3840x1080p. It's 3840 pixels wide but it's still only 1080 pixels high. That's half as many pixels as 3840x2160. Here's a picture to help you visualise it. You can see that the green 1920x1080 box could fit in to the blue 4k box 4 times.



Having two 1080p monitors would only fill up half the space of the 4k box.

[Sernefarian]

7 minutes ago, Spotty said:

@STRMfrmXMN now do you see why I summoned you?

A 1920x1080 + 1920x1080 monitor = 3840x1080p. It's 3840 pixels wide but it's still only 1080 pixels high. That's half as many pixels as 3840x2160. Here's a picture to help you visualise it. You can see that the green 1920x1080 box could fit in to the blue 4k box 4 times.



Having two 1080p monitors would only fill up half the space of the 4k box.

Rushed ahead on that particular part. Other part is actually true. need quad 1080p to mathematically equal it. Only your win on hat point. The peak millisecond draw is not your win.

 

You are confusing average draw with maximum peak draw and assuming that the average is the maximum. Also those 8 Pin connectors at the millsecond range can provide more than 150W though for sustained(read average) your number of 150W is closer to the number. If your 150W # was their limit then for the number you are choosing to use as maximum draw you'd need 3 of them to power the Overclocked 1080ti.

[STRMfrmXMN]

18 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

Rushed ahead on that particular part. Other part is actually true. need quad 1080p to mathematically equal it. Only your win on hat point. The peak millisecond draw is not your win.

 

You are confusing average draw with maximum peak draw and assuming that the average is the maximum. Also those 8 Pin connectors at the millsecond range can provide more than 150W though for sustained(read average) your number of 150W is closer to the number. If your 150W # was their limit then for the number you are choosing to use as maximum draw you'd need 3 of them to power the Overclocked 1080ti.

You do realize that the VRMs on the GPU dictate how much power can be drawn by the card? And that 75W of power comes from PCIe if you set the power limit to the card's maximum?

[Sernefarian]

Worst case scenario 8700k draws. 

 

Pic below is from this review page. https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/intel-coffee-lake-i7-8700k-cpu,review-34037-12.html

 

[Sernefarian]

2 minutes ago, STRMfrmXMN said:

You do realize that the VRMs on the GPU dictate how much power can be drawn by the card? And that 75W of power comes from PCIe if you set the power limit to the card's maximum?

You're arguing and explaining a selected subset of what I am talking about. The millisecond peaks for nearly all components are higher than their sustained averages.

 

[Spotty]

2 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

You are confusing average draw with maximum peak draw and assuming that the average is the maximum. Also those 8 Pin connectors at the millsecond range can provide more than 150W though for sustained(read average) your number of 150W is closer to the number. If your 150W # was their limit then for the number you are choosing to use ass maximum draw you'd need 3 of them to power the Overclocked 1080ti.

The card can also draw up to 75W from the PCIe slot of the motherboard. That is how graphics cards and other add in cards without PCIe power connectors are able to receive power. 2x150W connectors + 75W PCIe slot = 375W total. I did mention this in my earlier post and provided a quote and source to my information. You can read the wikipedia article I linked to earlier if you would like to read up more on PCIe power delivery. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express )

This is starting to derail the original thread. If you would like to further discuss your theories on a 1080ti drawing 700W from a PSU, I suggest you make a thread in the power supply or graphics card forum and I'm sure people will be happy to discuss the topic further, however it is only detracting away from the original topic of the original post. The original question was concerning whether or not 750W is acceptable for a 1080ti + 8700k, and it has already been answered that a 750W PSU is more than capable of providing the power required for the entire system.
 

10 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

Only your win on hat point. The peak millisecond draw is not your win.

3840 x 2160 <- resolution of 4k monitors. 1920+1920 = 3840. You lose.

This has nothing to do with "Winning points" or whatever you seem to think. I'm trying to provide helpful information to the original poster so that he can help his friend make informed decisions when building his first PC. I'm sorry, but the information you are providing in this thread is simply incorrect, and I would not want the OP to make an incorrect choice based on poor information they have received. I'm sure that you too are trying to help, and I hold no grudge against you personally, but as long as you continue to make factually incorrect statements then myself or others will correct them. No-one knows everything. There have been plenty of times when I've made mistakes or incorrect statements and others have corrected me. I use those mistakes as an opportunity to learn and broaden my knowledge, and from that it will improve the help I can provide to others. Going around posting "I was right you were wrong haha" doesn't help anyone.

[STRMfrmXMN]

2 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

You're arguing and explaining a selected subset of what I am talking about. The millisecond peaks for nearly all components are higher than their sustained averages.

 

Yes...? So you're literally arguing against your own point that a 550W unit would not be enough for a 1080 Ti system....

[Spotty]

42 minutes ago, HayHay said:

I don't have a pcpartpicker link atm cause I'm out atm, I'll send one as soon as I get home for his old vs new parts 

 

He's going to be using it just for gaming (like OW and rainbow 6 siege) and a couple of others as of now. He won't be streaming at all.

It sounds as if he might be better off with something like a Ryzen 2600 + 1060 6GB and saving quite a lot of money (or spending it on beer, whichever). From what you've posted so far it does suggest that he may be over-spending on parts that he won't be able to take advantage of.
I'll wait until you post up his full parts list that he's currently planning before I go in to any more details though.

[Sernefarian]

2 minutes ago, STRMfrmXMN said:

Yes...? So you're literally arguing against your own point that a 550W unit would not be enough for a 1080 Ti system....

No. You just don't get what I am saying. At the millisecond peak draw levels the powersupply is goingover 550W rated specs. For the average it will feed enough. Capacitors come into the equation allowing the 550W PSU to survive the millisecond peak draws.

[STRMfrmXMN]

11 minutes ago, Sernefarian said:

No. You just don't get what I am saying. At the millisecond peak draw levels the powersupply is goingover 550W rated specs. For the average it will feed enough. Capacitors come into the equation allowing the 550W PSU to survive the millisecond peak draws.

No...

 

For a millisecond, the PC is demanding 500W from the PSU...

[HayHay]

29 minutes ago, Spotty said:

It sounds as if he might be better off with something like a Ryzen 2600 + 1060 6GB and saving quite a lot of money (or spending it on beer, whichever). From what you've posted so far it does suggest that he may be over-spending on parts that he won't be able to take advantage of.
I'll wait until you post up his full parts list that he's currently planning before I go in to any more details though.

Honestly yeah, but he wants top of the line components. The 8700K is overkill for him thought I won't stop him for that just in case he does want to record later on (probably not though). It's just that the 1080Ti is what gets me the most. The monitors are freesync so I'd rather have him get a vega 56 tbh but those consume more power and give off more heat as far as I'm aware. Also it costs quite a bit of money compared to the 1080/1070Ti last I checked due to mining

[Sernefarian]

14 minutes ago, HayHay said:

Honestly yeah, but he wants top of the line components. The 8700K is overkill for him thought I won't stop him for that just in case he does want to record later on (probably not though). It's just that the 1080Ti is what gets me the most. The monitors are freesync so I'd rather have him get a vega 56 tbh but those consume more power and give off more heat as far as I'm aware. Also it costs quite a bit of money compared to the 1080/1070Ti last I checked due to mining

PcPP Link using Gigabyte cards.

 

Even if he switched to a 8600k the difference in overall performance wouldn't be huge, and from an 8600k to an 8400 again the difference would be small. If he wants to stream while he is gaming though The 8700k will perform better than either of the other two mentioned, and if he went with a Ryzen 2700X he'd get close to the same gaming performance as the 8700k with far better streaming capabilities.

 

Keeping in mind that the RX Vega 64 in most cases only performs nearly as well as a 1070 Ti at a higher pricepoint going Nvidia is pretty much a no brainer for performance per $. On the flipside Vega gives you tasty tasty lower cost monitors that freesync.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Sernefarian
Added Another paragraph, first post forgot link.

[Spotty]

3 minutes ago, HayHay said:

Honestly yeah, but he wants top of the line components. The 8700K is overkill for him thought I won't stop him for that just in case he does want to record later on (probably not though). It's just that the 1080Ti is what gets me the most. The monitors are freesync so I'd rather have him get a vega 56 tbh but those consume more power and give off more heat as far as I'm aware. Also it costs quite a bit of money compared to the 1080/1070Ti last I checked due to mining

Well given his monitor and what games he was playing, maybe a AMD RX 580 graphics card would be a better choice. They're priced at around USD $300, the same as a 1060 6GB, and the two cards have pretty close performance trading blows in various games. Importantly it will give him support for his freesync monitors.

It's pretty daunting when you're building your first PC. There's a lot of different parts and components and it can all be very confusing and overwhelming. It's very easy for people who have only experienced crappy Best Buy pre-builts before to think that if you want decent performance, you have to get the absolute best parts available otherwise it will be a slow heap of junk that struggles to get 30fps in Fortnite.

Don't flat out tell your friend his decisions are wrong as that may just dishearten him from building his PC. Instead, ask him what he wants his computer to do and have discussions on what component is responsible for what, and talk about bottlenecks and other such things. Share youtube videos of people benchmarking his favourite games with XYZ graphics cards or CPUs to see how they perform to help demonstrate how each model performs. Get a discussion going with him on the hardware and help explain what each component does if he doesn't have an extensive knowledge.

At the end of the day if he still says "I know I don't need it, I know there are cheaper options that will do what I want, but I've made up my mind and this is the one that I want", and still goes with an overkill expensive balls to the wall system then that is his choice and it's his money, and as long as he is happy with it then that is all that matters. Who knows, maybe building his new PC and having a really awesome gaming computer will inspire him to do other things such as playing more demanding titles, inspire him to start twitch streaming, or maybe he'll change his mind and upgrade his monitor when he sees how well games run on his new machine and starts wondering how beautiful the latest AAA title would look on a 4k HDR monitor.

Also, if your friend is old enough to drink, a good way to put the cost that he's spending on overkill parts in to perspective for him is to calculate it in to how many pints of beer he could get down at the pub instead. For example, he could get a 1080ti for $800, or he could get a RX580/1060 6GB for $300 and have $500 left over to spend on beer. You'd be surprised how quickly he'd come on board with the RX580/1060 suggestion.
_{(If he doesn't drink then just substitute the beer for whatever his favourite things are)}

[brob]

2 hours ago, HayHay said:

Honestly yeah, but he wants top of the line components. The 8700K is overkill for him thought I won't stop him for that just in case he does want to record later on (probably not though). It's just that the 1080Ti is what gets me the most. The monitors are freesync so I'd rather have him get a vega 56 tbh but those consume more power and give off more heat as far as I'm aware. Also it costs quite a bit of money compared to the 1080/1070Ti last I checked due to mining

With a GTX 1080 Ti he should be looking at a G-Sync monitor. Sure they are more expensive, but if he wants the best  . . .

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, Sernefarian said:

No. You just don't get what I am saying. At the millisecond peak draw levels the powersupply is goingover 550W rated specs. For the average it will feed enough. Capacitors come into the equation allowing the 550W PSU to survive the millisecond peak draws.

That is what the capacitors of good, modern PSU are for.

With modern PSU having 10mF or more on+12V is pretty common, the peak for 1ms is irrelevant because a battery of capacitors...

 

And between a 450 and 850W Bitfenix Whisper M, wich one has the higher Capacitance on the secondary? If you think the 850W, you are wrong.

Both have the same. It is the same throughout the series...

IIRC we are talking about 13,5mF on those.

Even a Cougar GX-F has somewhere around 10mF Capacitance...

8 hours ago, HayHay said:

Somebody please help me explain to him that a 750w psu doesn't work with a 1080Ti + i7 8700k (both oc'd), how his electricity bill will shoot up so much from the gpu I suggested (GTX 1070),

No, because you are totally wrong and have no idea what you are talking about...

Even a good quality 550W is more than plenty for that w/o OC and "normal OC".

And that is the point. What he wants/needs, is a high quality 550W like be quiet Straight Power 11, Bitfenix Formula, Cougar GX-F.

Not a low quality 750W unit like Inter Tech Combat Power, Cougar STX, Tacens, FSP Raider or any other 80plus Bronze unit.

 

8 hours ago, HayHay said:

and how he doesn't need a god damn 1080Ti for a 1920x1080 75hz monitor... 

THAT is just your oppinion...

8 hours ago, HayHay said:

Also the fact that the 1180 comes out first quarter next year (probably) as well as Icy Lake coming out soon.

There are other manufacturers that do good stuff than Intel/nVidia

Instead of breaking your head about some nonsense, you should try to convince him to look at other things too. Like Ryzen 7/2700x for example.

 

8 hours ago, HayHay said:

I'm cringing so hard at him but he won't listen to me.

He is right to not listen to you because you have no idea what you are talking about and needs to read up on everything you are claiming here.

Because I have yet to see a statement from you that is actually correct.