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Python or C++

Maikiki
By Maikiki
in Programming
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Which one should I choose to program? 

 

 

 

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Technically Python is a scripting language. 

Why not both? Just kidding. 
Some people professionals developers here claim to use python for rapid prototyping & then use C++ or other low level languages to write the final product. 
Many threads here end in "Pick either one. It doesn't really matter." 
Then there's a post apocalypse in "GAH! PYTHON USES A RUNTIME ENVIRONMENT. YOU LOSE SOME PERFORMANCE. C++ MASTER RACE" combatted with "PYTHON IS USED AT UNIVERSITIES AND DATABASES USE THEM AND IT'S CROSS PLATFORM."

And then they get locked and everyone agrees to use straight CSS for all their needs. 
Python is good for machine learning, cross platform, open source & web development. 
C++ is good for performance, cross platform (if you have compilers for each environment) & teaching some low level concepts you don't get with some high level languages. 
Both are good at everything I listed because when there's a programmer there's a library. 

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3 hours ago, fpo said:

Technically Python is a scripting language. 

Why not both? Just kidding. 
Some people professionals developers here claim to use python for rapid prototyping & then use C++ or other low level languages to write the final product. 
Many threads here end in "Pick either one. It doesn't really matter." 
Then there's a post apocalypse in "GAH! PYTHON USES A RUNTIME ENVIRONMENT. YOU LOSE SOME PERFORMANCE. C++ MASTER RACE" combatted with "PYTHON IS USED AT UNIVERSITIES AND DATABASES USE THEM AND IT'S CROSS PLATFORM."

And then they get locked and everyone agrees to use straight CSS for all their needs. 
Python is good for machine learning, cross platform, open source & web development. 
C++ is good for performance, cross platform (if you have compilers for each environment) & teaching some low level concepts you don't get with some high level languages. 
Both are good at everything I listed because when there's a programmer there's a library. 

Python is quite fast if you use Cython complier which compiles python down to C code. 

 

Python interpreter is the most popular though. It allows it to act as a scripting language which is very useful.

 

 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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Pythin because things like tensorflow use it

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Python is easy to write, is portable (as long as the systems have a similar version of Python installed on them), it has a metric crap ton of modules available, but all this comes at the cost of being much slower than C++.

 

C++ is quite a bit harder to write, it is not portable between some operating systems (Windows can transfer between other versions of Windows, but Windows C++ programs can not be transferred to MacOS or Linux systems without modifying and recompiling the code), it has quite a few libraries available (but are harder to install compared to Python), but it is insanely faster than Python.

 

Personally, I actually do the best of both worlds: Cython. It's slightly modified Python code that get compiled into libraries that are either imported into Python or C++, and improves the speed of your program to get extremely close to that of native C++. If you import your Cython compiled code into a C or C++ program, you're effectively running native C code without actually writing it.

 

You can also compile python modules to have the same effect.

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On 22.5.2018 at 4:01 AM, sud said:

Which one should I choose to program? 

Lisp. It can also be used as a scripting language and it is notably faster and easier to understand than Python.

 

If you absolutely refrain from adding any other languages to your original choice, use C++.

Write in C.

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21 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

Lisp. It can also be used as a scripting language and it is notably faster and easier to understand than Python.

 

If you absolutely refrain from adding any other languages to your original choice, use C++.

Coming from C, C++, C#, Java, ad Python, I can say a lot of the stuff that are easy to do in those languages are not easy to do in Lisp. I've used it enough to know that it is not fun working in, especially if you're trying to follow a Model-View-Controller methodology, or try to make Lisp act like an Object Oriented Language.

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Lisp - at least, Common Lisp - is a multi-paradigm language, including Object Orientation.

Regarding MVC: Tried Caveman2? I still haven't found a good alternative to it in C.

 

Your claim that C is both a better object-oriented and a better MVC language than Common Lisp is obviously wrong. (That does not necessarily have to be a bad thing. Nobody needs objects or MVC.)

Write in C.

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Spoiler

I'm not even going to say I told you so. 



Did you know that Lua has Object Oriented functionality built into its Tables functions? It can act like an array or an object. They're quite versatile. 

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  • Author

I should've put more info... so here it is:

I recently started coding with cmd (ew) but we all know that cmd is... eh. 

So I was wondering which language I should learn first. 

I made up my mind, 

 

 

Python, easy to learn, versatile, quick and simple.

Then I will learn C++ since it's much faster (but slightly harder to learn). 

Thank for the answers!  

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if you want to do high performance apps like video editing or 3d animation or games 

learn c++

if you want to do other basic apps or web apps use python

i suggest learn C++ to learn programming basics then you ll be able to learn any other language

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4 hours ago, sud said:

I should've put more info... so here it is:

I recently started coding with cmd (ew) but we all know that cmd is... eh. 

So I was wondering which language I should learn first. 

I made up my mind, 

 

 

Python, easy to learn, versatile, quick and simple.

Then I will learn C++ since it's much faster (but slightly harder to learn). 

Thank for the answers!  

C/C++ is going to be faster in a useful way in only a very narrow band of situations. If you were trying to build an emulator on a raspberry pi, control hardware with tiny amounts of memory and processing power, or do complex financial modeling, it may well make sense. Otherwise, something like python, java, c#, js, etc are going to be better in terms of how quickly you can create something - there are also going to be more jobs in those higher level languages.

 

Also, there is nothing wrong with writing batch files - its a very useful skill and can save many hours, especially when you have to frequently do tasks like deploying code or cleaning up junk files.

Web Developer and Java contractor

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On 5/23/2018 at 7:23 PM, sud said:

I should've put more info... so here it is:

I recently started coding with cmd (ew) but we all know that cmd is... eh. 

So I was wondering which language I should learn first. 

I made up my mind, 

 

 

Python, easy to learn, versatile, quick and simple.

Then I will learn C++ since it's much faster (but slightly harder to learn). 

Thank for the answers!  

Power Shell might be useful if you want to go into Information Technology and work at a school or something fixing computers. If you go to a University for it, they'll have some kind of windows scripting class I'm sure. 
 

20 hours ago, a7mddiaa said:

if you want to do high performance apps like video editing or 3d animation or games 

learn c++

if you want to do other basic apps or web apps use python

i suggest learn C++ to learn programming basics then you ll be able to learn any other language

This is the professional standard however Python has Pigame or pygame. It's a type of graphics library (I believe 2D) that lets you create windows and do graphics. It should have some similar concepts in it that can translate to a windowing framework like SDL

Pygame was created because Python's SDL was being Depricated at the turn of the millennium... or so I read somewhere. This is just an alternative so you hone your skills in one language. Ultimately, jobs likely want you to have the language they're using as a skill. IE video game companies want C++ with Open GL, Vulkan or DirectX. Which I'm sure you know. 

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On 24.05.2018 at 1:23 AM, sud said:

Python, easy to learn, versatile, quick and simple.

Then I will learn C++ since it's much faster (but slightly harder to learn). 

Thank for the answers!  

It's quite easy to write on forums how many languages someone will or should learn. You can get to know the syntax of both languages but you will be unable to code anything useful and anything of good quality.

 

You want to do some more advanced web applications - few months to get to know Django and/or Flask. Making desktop GUI apps is more time consuming so you will have to spent even more time to feel comfortable with PyQt5. IoT is a hot topic and so with some basic Python scripting some hardware/electronics control is possible with MicroPython, Zerynth, TinkerForge platforms as well as Raspberry Pi and other similar products... Trying to do something with multimedia/game engines is also doable with scripting Blender and game engines.

 

With C or C++ you gain access to more low level branches of software development - which also require more knowledge and rather specific needs. There is no "speed" difference just from language difference. There may be performance difference specific to give code implementation. Like instead of scripting ready to use game engine - building one from lower level components for specific needs.

Arduino platform is very popular for electronics scripting and C is the standard for other microcontroller platforms and IMHO only this is a real end user scenario where picking C/C++ over Python can be beneficial.

 

Whatever someone picks - learning takes years.

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On 23/05/2018 at 6:41 AM, HunterAP said:

Python is easy to write, is portable (as long as the systems have a similar version of Python installed on them)

Everything is portable with docker :)

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1 hour ago, vorticalbox said:

Everything is portable with docker :)

Yes, but now the person learning to code has to learn how to work with Docker: it's nice, but for people getting into programming, Docker really isn't something you learn first.

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This question is asked so frequently, I doubt it has any value. Some imperative advice, don't bother learning something you will never use.  Focus on developing skills that help your workflow. When it comes to software in real world applications, you will have to adapt to whichever language is used for the project you are working on. There are useful concepts in software, many of which are language agnostic: Design patterns, OOP, meta-programming etc. The language is just an implementation detail. With all that said, go for C++. 

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On 5/22/2018 at 9:01 PM, wasab said:

Python is quite fast if you use Cython complier which compiles python down to C code.

 

On 5/23/2018 at 7:41 AM, HunterAP said:

If you import your Cython compiled code into a C or C++ program, you're effectively running native C code without actually writing it.

Many seem to think that simply squeezing Python code trough a C compiler will magically bring it up to speed. That naive view overlooks the true reason C and C++ can produce such fast code: undefined behavior.

 

The C and C++ standards leave a lot of things undefined. There are some things you should not do, like going out of bounds on a array, and if you do - all bets are off.

Many other languages, including Python, define almost everything. Going out of bounds on a array in Python results in a IndexError exception, I believe.

 

That makes the Python code a lot safer and easier to debug (*), but it also means the implementation has to include all kinds of checks and tests in the code behind your back to be able to adhere to this standard. Accessing a array with a index that is computed at runtime ? (and thus, no clever compiler/interpreter can check index validity at compile time/beforehand) then the runtime code HAS to check the validity of the index every time the array is accessed, the language standard demands it. Such a check typically takes more time then the actual access, so it can slow things down a lot. And somehow converting the Python code to C/C++ does not help. If the converted application still has to adhere to the Python standard then all those checks and tests have to be added to the C/C++ code as well.

 

The array access is just one example, there's many more behaviors that requires extra overhead if it has to be defined, some might find this article interesting:

https://blog.regehr.org/archives/213

 

(*) Al tough there's a lot of tools and programming paradigms these days to write very safe code in C++.

 

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TL;DR for most of the above, but you sound like someone who knows nothing about programming (no offense). In this case, don't even bother with C++. You won't have a use for it and it is far too advanced to attempt.

 

Stick with something simple and extremely useful in a wide variety of situations. Python is good, but I would honestly start off with Javascript. I recommend a website called codecademy for learning Javascript.

 

EDIT: Javascript is useful from web design all the way to game design in the Unity engine. Perfect language for a beginner IMO

i7-4790k | MSI Z97 GAMING-5 | Corsair Vengeance 16 GB | Samsung EVO-850 250GB SSD & WD blue 1 TB HDD | EVGA 1070 SC | Red NZXT H440 | Cooler Master G650W

 

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Quote

 

Many seem to think that simply squeezing Python code trough a C compiler will magically bring it up to speed. That naive view overlooks the true reason C and C++ can produce such fast code: undefined behavior.

 

The C and C++ standards leave a lot of things undefined. There are some things you should not do, like going out of bounds on a array, and if you do - all bets are off.

Many other languages, including Python, define almost everything. Going out of bounds on a array in Python results in a IndexError exception, I believe.

 

That's not really much of an argument: it's quite bad practice in C and C++ not to keep track of the size of your array in a variable, and you can get away with this slightly by using sizeof: 

#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main()
{
    int myArray[] = {5, 4, 3, 2, 1};
    mySize = sizeof(myArray) / sizeof(myArray[0]);
  
    for (int i = 0; i < mySize; i++):
    {
        cout << i << ": " << myArray[i] << endl;
    }
}

Or without storing the size into a variable: 

#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main()
{
    int myArray[] = {5, 4, 3, 2, 1};
  
    for (int i = 0; i < (sizeof(myArray) / sizeof(myArray[0])); i++):
    {
        cout << i << ": " << myArray[i] << endl;
    }
}

Either way, you've just prevented out of bounds exceptions. 

Quote

That makes the Python code a lot safer and easier to debug (*), but it also means the implementation has to include all kinds of checks and tests in the code behind your back to be able to adhere to this standard. Accessing a array with a index that is computed at runtime ? (and thus, no clever compiler/interpreter can check index validity at compile time/beforehand) then the runtime code HAS to check the validity of the index every time the array is accessed, the language standard demands it. Such a check typically takes more time then the actual access, so it can slow things down a lot. And somehow converting the Python code to C/C++ does not help. If the converted application still has to adhere to the Python standard then all those checks and tests have to be added to the C/C++ code as well.

You are right about this, as running Cython code is just importing C or C++ code into a Python executable instance, but this is to get the best of both worlds:

  • C and C++ are a lot harder to write than Python, especially due to the programmer having to handle memory management and pointers/referencing, rather than having it handled for them "behind the scenes" of the program.
  • Conversely, you're giving up a lot of performance due to Python being interpreted and dynamically typed, among other things, but it's a lot easier to manage the type of variables you're using rather than memory management. Python also becomes mostly cross-platform (the exceptions being OS-specific code for some modules, like platform.dist() giving Linux specific info while platform.win32_ver() giving Windows specific info).

Cython makes your code less portable (which you can easily just recompile with a quick Python command on different systems), but you gain a ton of performance in terms of speed. Not trying to derail the thread, but here's a comparison I made: I wrote a program that finds every prime number from 2 to 100000, and does that calculation 100 times. The chart is attached, but in short, without doing any manual optimizations the Cython code was roughly 116.17% faster (AKA it took less than half the time to do the same calculation).

 

I don't have the original PC that I ran these tests on with my at the moment, but I know that native C or C++ code will run faster: it's just much easier to write Python IMO.

 

image.png.ae51166aed15214ec1cec3fcc6b5afb1.png

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Posted
7 hours ago, HunterAP said:

That's not really much of an argument: it's quite bad practice in C and C++ not to keep track of the size of your array in a variable, and you can get away with this slightly by using sizeof:

In a non-trivial program you'll find yourself accessing arrays in more complex ways then just linear traversal from start to finish. For example, calculating a index into a lookup table.

 

It was just a easy to understand example. As said, there's many places where undefined behavior allows for efficient code where having to define the situation requires overhead.

 

As for which language is easier or faster to write: I find that (good) programming, comes down to spending much time in design (program structure, object hierarchy, algorithm design)  and only little in actual implementing, making the choice of language somewhat moot.

 

 

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