Swedish Internete Provider Banhof Announces 10Gbit/s Broadband

[Cheezdoodlez]

12 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I'm not saying everyone and their grandma can utilize 10Gbps, but it's not really a hard thing to do either. The biggest problem would be finding a way to actually utilize it properly.

Well considering it's Bahnhof we''re talking about I see great potential for Seedboxes.  

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Providers in Sweden are moving towards this for their fiber networks.

I will soon get bumped up from 250/100 to 250/250 because my ISP (bredbandsbolaget, owned by Telenor) is getting rid of asymmetrical connections.

Asymmetrical connections makes sense for things like xDSL, but not fiber.

Makes sense for GPON where the line rate is 2.5Gbps/1.25Gbps but then so few people utilize upload it's not going to matter much if you over subscribe that more.

[maartendc]

I have AT&T Fiber in Atlanta, and I pay $70 a month for Gigabit up and Gigabit Down with unlimited volume. Cannot complain. They basically just match the price of Google Fiber.

 

Sadly, in markets where Google Fiber is not available, they charge WAY more for the same plan. Just shows you how messed up the monopolies of cable companies are.

[Jent]

On 3/5/2018 at 10:46 AM, leadeater said:

Makes sense for GPON where the line rate is 2.5Gbps/1.25Gbps but then so few people utilize upload it's not going to matter much if you over subscribe that more.

Yeah, I can see it happening for most PON-based connections, but I don't know of a single Swedish ISP that deploys PON towards the customer. It's all active fiber optics to access switches and then either twisted pair out to the apartments or active fiber optics.

[aliasdred]

On 01/03/2018 at 11:15 PM, mynameisjuan said:

Well seeing how most porn is SD, it would be difficult to break even 100mbps

You underestimate my power

[aliasdred]

And here I am using a 10Mbit/s connection.... I play 15$/mo

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, Jent said:

Yeah, I can see it happening for most PON-based connections, but I don't know of a single Swedish ISP that deploys PON towards the customer. It's all active fiber optics to access switches and then either twisted pair out to the apartments or active fiber optics.

Yea I think Sweden did their fibre deployment project before PON was the go to standard, which is cool because I would rather active fibre than passive but the cost of that now makes passive the preferred choice for home connections.

[Jent]

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea I think Sweden did their fibre deployment project before PON was the go to standard, which is cool because I would rather active fibre than passive but the cost of that now makes passive the preferred choice for home connections.

We're installing new fiber every day at new locations, and PON facing the customer is completely disregarded. It doesn't let us build the infrastructure most ISPs here want to build. Without going into too much detail, I work for the ISP mentioned in the first post. Relatively speaking, access switches are dirt cheap and not a point of issue when it comes to cost calculation.

 

Edit: However, there might be a difference in business practice here compared to a lot of other places.

 

Edit 2: I'm curious though as to how prevalent PON deplyoment is in other regions, such as New Zealand?

[leadeater]

39 minutes ago, Jent said:

We're installing new fiber every day at new locations, and PON facing the customer is completely disregarded. It doesn't let us build the infrastructure most ISPs here want to build. Without going into too much detail, I work for the ISP mentioned in the first post. Relatively speaking, access switches are dirt cheap and not a point of issue when it comes to cost calculation.

 

Edit: However, there might be a difference in business practice here compared to a lot of other places.

Yea if you already have active you wouldn't want to put in passive as that's essentially putting in a completely new infrastructure deployment which brings that cost with it. You might have a slightly higher per endpoint connection cost but's it's better to just wear that than make a technology change.

 

Cost of creating a new validated network design and validating a whole new set of equipment etc, you have something that works so just run with it and it's definitely got positives to it.

 

PON isn't really cheaper for the customer endpoint equipment but it's cheaper at the cabinet/node side of things but I couldn't tell you by how much, I just know that it is cheaper and that's one of the reasons why it's the standard of choice for residential now. The other nice thing is since it's passive the splitters don't require power so there are less stages in fibre runs that need power to them, again though you'd have to have a very dense deployment servicing many connections far from the cabinet for care about that.

 

Edit:

Oh and the other nice thing about PON is deploying 10Gb is it's still easy to do and uses different wavelengths so you can put it in non disruptively (mostly) even to a single customer without triggering a large amount of equipment upgrade.

 

[Nicnac]

I don't get it?! why would a business need 100Gbit/s ?? I need that extra reaction time for my cs:go ranking!!

/jk

[leadeater]

36 minutes ago, Jent said:

 

Edit 2: I'm curious though as to how prevalent PON deplyoment is in other regions, such as New Zealand?

New Zealand is 100% GPON for residential FTTH, we also have FTTN with VDSL2 for smaller more rural areas but those are getting FTTH as a stage two upgrade that is already happening. Goal is to have zero copper by 2020.

 

Australia is also GPON, we actualy used their network design (the original one not what they ended up doing).

 

Japan is GPON, Indonesia, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore (Both AON and PON), Bulgaria, France, Spain, Sweden (very small amount), Ukraine, Kuwait, Canada, United States, Chile, Peru all have GPON as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_premises_by_country (just do a find for PON on that page)

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

I don't get it?! why would a business need 100Gbit/s ?? I need that extra reaction time for my cs:go ranking!!

/jk

If only bandwidth had much to do with latency at all 

[Jent]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

New Zealand is 100% GPON for residential FTTH, we also have FTTN with VDSL2 for smaller more rural areas but those are getting FTTH as a stage two upgrade that is already happening.

 

Australia is also GPON, we actualy used their network design (the original one not what they ended up doing).

 

Japan is GPON, Indonesia, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore (Both AON and PON), Bulgaria, France, Spain, Sweden (very small amount), Ukraine, Kuwait, Canada, United States, Chile, Peru all have GPON as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_premises_by_country (just do a find for PON on that page)

Ah yes, interesting choice, and I can see some of the allure to it.

 

However, that page seems a bit outdated, specifically for Sweden. A lot has changed in the last 9 years! As far as I know there might've been some pilot programs but nothing that has struck wide. One of the reasons is regulation and market dominance and compatibility. A lot of our Internet infrastructure are municipality-owned networks, or city-wide networks with open access to providers, either renting capacity, wavelengths, or dark fiber to the customers.

 

22 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea if you already have active you wouldn't want to put in passive as that's essentially putting in a completely new infrastructure deployment which brings that cost with it. You might have a slightly higher per endpoint connection cost but's it's better to just wear that than make a technology change.

 

Cost of creating a new validated network design and validating a whole new set of equipment etc, you have something that works so just run with it and it's definitely got positives to it.

 

PON isn't really cheaper for the customer endpoint equipment but it's cheaper at the cabinet/node side of things but I couldn't tell you by how much, I just know that it is cheaper and that's one of the reasons why it's the standard of choice for residential now. The other nice thing is since it's passive the splitters don't require power so there are less stages in fibre runs that need power to them, again though you'd have to have a very dense deployment servicing many connections far from the cabinet for care about that.

 

Edit:

Oh and the other nice thing about PON is deploying 10Gb is it's still easy to do and uses different wavelengths so you can put it in non disruptively (mostly) even to a single customer without triggering a large amount of equipment update.

 

 

Yeah, I can understand the allure of PON. WDM itself is a different matter though. However, short of building a parallell network, being able to offer residential 10 Gbps and corporate customers up to 100 Gbps and beyond with many different variations (access, P2P) makes for PON deployment a non-option here. I wish I was able to go into more detail, but that's as far as it can go.

[Noctus]

£50 for 10Gbit? Where the fuck do i sign up??? WTB this is Glasgow

[Nicnac]

38 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If only bandwidth had much to do with latency at all 

I mean my reaction time to downloading the game faster, obviously 

[leadeater]

48 minutes ago, Jent said:

Yeah, I can understand the allure of PON. WDM itself is a different matter though. However, short of building a parallell network, being able to offer residential 10 Gbps and corporate customers up to 100 Gbps and beyond with many different variations (access, P2P) makes for PON deployment a non-option here. I wish I was able to go into more detail, but that's as far as it can go.

Yea I know what you mean, PON for business is not a thing here either, well small business use it but it's all active for the real stuff. PON really is residential only in my view.

 

Our network is very much like yours, government funded and privately operated with Chorus running the infrastructure side of things (physical cabling and related equipment) and other ISPs paying for access to that infrastructure and operating the data side of things. Three tier system basically: Chorus cabling, Vocus routing and wholesale services, MyRepublic retail ISP. Anyone can buy in to the network to sell services.

 

So we do have parallel networks like you said would be required, UFB is the umbrella name for the residential FTTH upgrade project we did from ADSL2+ here. Edit: You can't get active on the residential fibre and you can't get passive on the business fibre, the 'last mile' (generically speaking) fibre cabling is actually different.

 

Where I work we are on another special network for research and education called REANNZ, formally KAREN. Really it's just a set of dedicated wavelengths down the main fiber trunks of the country to their own equipment that all the universities and research/science institutions hook in to but it's nice that it's a mostly an uncongested non oversubscribed network, I send about 9TB of data across it every night (backups ). They're upgrading to 100Gb now but I don't know if we'll bother to upgrade the optics on our end since we don't really push the 10Gb links that hard we have now anyway.

 

Spoiler

 

https://reannz.co.nz/services/networking/network/

 

 

[laminutederire]

49 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

I don't get it?! why would a business need 100Gbit/s ?? I need that extra reaction time for my cs:go ranking!!

/jk

Well when people don't understand technology they can easily think they need it...

Like my landlord had issue with his router because he couldn't receive squat from the other side of the house: so the fix proposed by the isp: put a Wi-Fi router with double the band with for 5CHF per month more. Result: nothing changed since the new router had the same range and the older one wasn't even saturated bandwith wise. That's how you can sell absurdly high bandwith to people!

[Misanthrope]

10gb internet?

 

Does this means that at least theoretically, Linus could hire a Swedish video editor and he would still be able to connect to the LTT servers with VPN at close to the actual throughput locally?

 

Well it would require Linus to get 10gb internet too but still, sounds promising.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

10gb internet?

 

Does this means that at least theoretically, Linus could hire a Swedish video editor and he would still be able to connect to the LTT servers with VPN at close to the actual throughput locally?

 

Well it would require Linus to get 10gb internet too but still, sounds promising.

No, unfortunately the latency would be too high so the effective throughput would be far lower than 10Gb. Bandwidth is just the line rate and throughput is the achievable network performance and latency is a direct factor on that.

 

That's why we put local servers in our campus in another city only 140km drive away, it's about 3-5ms latency but you really notice it on protocols like SMB which vehemently hate latency. We have dual 10Gb between the campuses but it's not a substitute for local services even at such low latencies as we get.

[Thony]

On 01/03/2018 at 1:30 PM, mynameisjuan said:

I have a 10gig internet connection at home and honestly doesnt make a difference for residential use. Unless you are downloading a steam game, max usage runs around 250mbps with streaming, browsing, using your phone...etc...everything just downloads that quick that it cant window long enough to reach those speeds. 

 

I mean it makes even less sense for business users as usage is even less.

 

Still cool as shit though and glad they are pushing the speed base line. 

Doesnt make sense to you, makes perfect sense to me. 

They go so over the top and with good pricing that they either gain a lot of good advertising by word from customers and start growing which will eventually force competition to adapt and raise their standards or competition fights it in some way and makes them fail.  

Anything that pushes the boundaries is great ! We need to evolve technologically. There needs to be competition otherwise Intel and Nvidia happens (slow progress due to lack of competition, if they are not forced to think out of the box, they wont....) 

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, laminutederire said:

Well when people don't understand technology they can easily think they need it...

Like my landlord had issue with his router because he couldn't receive squat from the other side of the house: so the fix proposed by the isp: put a Wi-Fi router with double the band with for 5CHF per month more. Result: nothing changed since the new router had the same range and the older one wasn't even saturated bandwith wise. That's how you can sell absurdly high bandwith to people!

Companies that will buy 100Gbps connections won't just connect it to an access point and be done with it. It will be for companies that host services, for example video on demand, remote backup and such. Things that require lots of bandwidth.

 

 

9 hours ago, Jent said:

-snip-

You work at Bahnhof? Not sure if you are allowed to answer these questions but I'll ask anyway.

What hardware platform is Northern Light built on? From what I know your "old" network is Cisco-based, but is that true for this new fiber network with 100Gbps connections too?

[laminutederire]

17 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Companies that will buy 100Gbps connections won't just connect it to an access point and be done with it. It will be for companies that host services, for example video on demand, remote backup and such. Things that require lots of bandwidth.

Sure those guy may need it, but it remains that some regular people will still pay to have such absurd internet connections they will never make a real use of, just because that's where we're at.

[mynameisjuan]

14 hours ago, Thony said:

Doesnt make sense to you, makes perfect sense to me. 

They go so over the top and with good pricing that they either gain a lot of good advertising by word from customers and start growing which will eventually force competition to adapt and raise their standards or competition fights it in some way and makes them fail.  

Anything that pushes the boundaries is great ! We need to evolve technologically. There needs to be competition otherwise Intel and Nvidia happens (slow progress due to lack of competition, if they are not forced to think out of the box, they wont....) 

See once you promise a speed, especially something ridiculous like 10gbps, business and residential like to run speed test quite often to either show off the speed or make sure they're getting what they are paying for. Seeing how speed test servers dont support that yet and 10gbps probably going to be hard to maintain, they will bitch a lot and complain that they are only getting 8 out of the 10gigs. 

 

And yes, I get we need to push technology, but when the max average usage of residential is around 250mbps and the collage dorm here that has around 400-600 students maxes at 1gbps, trust me, you DONT need 10gbps. 

 

Also the advertising is great, but 99% of the time people dont even know what their speeds are nor care. 

[Thony]

3 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

 

And yes, I get we need to push technology, but when the max average usage of residential is around 250mbps and the collage dorm here that has around 400-600 students maxes at 1gbps, trust me, you DONT need 10gbps. 

 

 

I know we dont, our storage drives arent even capable of the speeds (sata ssd and hdd). But having that extra spread across several devices on home network means everyone gets that 1gbps at all times if router is of a good quality.

They aim high and im all for it whether they succeed or fail.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Seeing how speed test servers dont support that yet and 10gbps probably going to be hard to maintain, they will bitch a lot and complain that they are only getting 8 out of the 10gigs. 

You'd be lucky to even get 8 on a public speed test node.