Questions about Intel VROC technology & Bootable RAID

[brighttail]

So with the new X299 Skylake-X platform we are seeing a new technology called Virtual RAID over CPU (VROC) from Intel, which will allow up to 20 m.2 drives to be put in RAID 0 as a bootable drive and be based off the CPU instead of the Chipset. I watched a video showing 8 drives in RAID with a 13.5GB/s Seq read. The caveats of this technology is that it:

1. only works with INTEL M.2/SSDs, no Samsung, OCZ, WD, ect M.2s

2. only works on Skylake-X processors

3. only offers RAID 0, unless you buy separately a dongle which will unlock RAID 1, 5, 10, ect.

 

There are a few boards like the APEX which has a dedicated slot for M.2s to use the VROC and one slot for M.2s to use off the Chipset.  From what I understand, non-intel drives will be viewable and usable as storage drives (much like they are now on the x99 platforms) but won't be able to be made as boot drives in RAID.

 

So my question is, what about the normal RAID technology using the chipset?  Will non-Intel drives be allowed to create bootable RAID drives like the z270 platforms and if so, will they be limited to the 3.5GB/s bandwidth or will it have no cap like the x99 allows for storage RAID drives?  (I currently have two sm961s running about 6.5GB/s in RAID 0 as a storage drive.  MSI and Asus have put out PCI-e Cards that can hold 2 to 4 m.2 drives for RAID purposes with cooling.  I'm just curious if we will be able to create a bootable drive using RAID 0 and non-Intel drives?

 

Thoughts? Comments?

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3199104/storage/intels-core-i9-and-x299-enable-crazy-raid-configurations-for-a-price.html

[manikyath]

if it's trough a controller (like a pcie card that has an on-board raid controller) or raid trough the sata controller, i dont think anything would change.

[dangeredwolf]

We don't know most of those answers yet.

 

I'd imagine normal RAIDs would still be supported, but to take advantage of VROC you would need those NVMe drives, whichever ones are compatible. You can still make a standard RAID0 with any NVMe SSDs but we don't really know yet if VROC can.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Ya really shouldn't be using mobo raid, it sucks. If you really want bootalbe raid in windows, get a hardware raid card(yes they support nvme drives).

 

If its not a boot drive or not windows, use software raid, its much better than this.

[brighttail]

On the X99 Platform you couldn't create a Bootable RAID due to the Intel Raid controller wouldn't allow it.  I'm wondering now if it will be allowed if you aren't using VRoC.

[brighttail]

3 hours ago, dangeredwolf said:

We don't know most of those answers yet.

 

I'd imagine normal RAIDs would still be supported, but to take advantage of VROC you would need those NVMe drives, whichever ones are compatible. You can still make a standard RAID0 with any NVMe SSDs but we don't really know yet if VROC can.

Yeah I think we are going to have to wait for some reviews. I can't imagine that companies like Samsung, WD, OCZ, ect would not try to come up with something that would allow their storage to be used with VROC.  I'm pretty sure it would be something as simple as a BIOS update after the companies pay the appropriate homage and $ to Intel.

[done12many2]

6 hours ago, brighttail said:

On the X99 Platform you couldn't create a Bootable RAID due to the Intel Raid controller wouldn't allow it.  I'm wondering now if it will be allowed if you aren't using VRoC.

2 hours ago, brighttail said:

Yeah I think we are going to have to wait for some reviews. I can't imagine that companies like Samsung, WD, OCZ, ect would not try to come up with something that would allow their storage to be used with VROC.  I'm pretty sure it would be something as simple as a BIOS update after the companies pay the appropriate homage and $ to Intel.

 

If what is speculated in this article is true, Intel really fucked this up.  It was bad enough that there was no NVMe RAID support even through the x99 / Broadwell-E refresh, but to limit bootable RAIDs to Intel M.2 SSDs only is pure bullshit.

 

This would literally weigh heaving on my Skylake X vs Threadripper decisions as a primary rig.  

 

https://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/ASUS-X299-Enables-Intel-Virtual-RAID-CPU-RAID-0-20-SSDs

 

 

 

[john chambers]

please show me a intel ssd worth a damn samsung owns the ssd space.

[brighttail]

Linus stated that you can boot from a RAID drive using the Chipset, much like the z170/270 motherboards.  The VROC actually isn't even ready for INtel drives yet it seems.

[done12many2]

50 minutes ago, brighttail said:

Linus stated that you can boot from a RAID drive using the Chipset, much like the z170/270 motherboards.  The VROC actually isn't even ready for INtel drives yet it seems.

I'm not sure that Linus is correct. No surprise. 

 

In Asus x299 manuals, it's showing that you can still run RAID on PCIe devices on the chipset side through the DMI. 

 

VROC on the CPU side will require a key should you chose to be able to boot from it. 

[brighttail]

8 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

I'm not sure that Linus is correct. No surprise. 

 

In Asus x299 manuals, it's showing that you can still run RAID on PCIe devices on the chipset side through the DMI. 

 

VROC on the CPU side will require a key should you chose to be able to boot from it. 

The point was in x99 you couldn't create a bootable RAID drive.  You could always run RAID as a storage drive, but not as a bootable drive. This changed in the z170/z270 chipset.

 

There was some question if the x299 would allow this.

VROC will work but only if you are using INTEL drives (as it stands right now).

 

What Linus was explaining was the new x299 can have RAID 0 as a bootable drive.

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, brighttail said:

The point was in x99 you couldn't create a bootable RAID drive.  You could always run RAID as a storage drive, but not as a bootable drive. This changed in the z170/z270 chipset.

 

There was some question if the x299 would allow this.

VROC will work but only if you are using INTEL drives (as it stands right now).

 

What Linus was explaining was the new x299 can have RAID 0 as a bootable drive.

 

I'm not sure that you are understanding what I'm saying.

 

There are two different controllers on X299.  Intel Rapid Storage Technology (IRST), which handles NVMe PCIe M.2 and standard SATA drives.  The IRST is on the chipset side of the DMI 3.0.  The second controller is the VROC, which you've already hear Linus talking about, which is on the CPU side.

 

The IRST is the same IRST used in z270.  The IRST will still be able to RAID any NVMe PCIe M.2s that are routed on the motherboard through the chipset and DMI 3.0.  This RAID will in turn be bootable.

 

Some people will want to route their NVMe drives straight to the CPU as it bypasses the bottleneck associated with the maximum bandwidth of DMI 3.0, which is nothing more then x4 PCIe lanes total.  NVMe drives on the CPU side will be handled by VROC.  VROC RAID will be faster because each NVMe drive will have x4 PCIe lanes assigned per drive instead of sharing the total x4 PCIe bandwidth when tunneled through the DMI 3.0.

 

Whether or not a motherboard manufacturer assigns more than one NVMe M.2 slot to the chipset (IRST) is a whole different story, but for those who do, NVMe RAID via IRST will function exactly as it does on z270.  

 

Here is an example with the Asus Prime x299 Deluxe.  The 3rd image is the VROC stuff. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brighttail]

I understand what you are saying.  What I was pointing out was on the x99 platform you could do a RAID array but only for storage. IRST would NOT recognize the M.2 drives and allow a bootable RAID Drive.

 

While the z270/z170 platform made this possible, due to the chipset, speeds were capped at 3.5-4.0 Gb/s.   Using the x99 platform tho, the storage RAID didn't have such a cap and  you could theoretically use up to the 32 Gb/s.

 

When the x299 was announced, it was not clear if a bootable RAID drive would be possible.  Linus in his video about the Asus Deluxe x299 put that uncertainty to rest.

 

The ONLY thing remaining for me is whether Intel will eventually allow non-Intel drives to use the VROC technology so people with Samsung, OCZ, Patriot, Corsair and other m.2 creators to use VROC.  Personally I think it would be yet another black eye if Intel doesn't relax this restriction at some point in the future.  Perhaps at launch and a 3-6 month window before allowing other drives to utilize VROC would be a good compromise.