Very Serious Question & Poll

[Jack the Stripper]

This is my first time doing a Poll.

The question is - Would You Steal Millions From Corporate America and do a bit in the Penitentiary for $4M with $2M cash waiting for you when you get on the outs?

 

Circumstances of the theft would be this is your first theft over, your first offence in this category of criminal law.

 

[PlayStation 2]

Go to jail for 5 years for $4m? Fuck no, better gimme a way larger sum to convince me to do just a month.

[Jack the Stripper]

You dont do the full term Dan. In Canada it is 1/6 the term for non violent, non drug, no gun crime. It might be 1/5 for good behaviour. Sometimes I read about people getting double or triple time for Remand time. I should have added which penal system it is in. Let me think about that one. I would have to say USA as its much harsher penal system then Canada (So I hear).

 

For example if you sit in Remand for 6 months, you get 1 year taken off your actual jail time (so I read). If its over crowded you get 1.5 yrs credit.

 

Me personally, I dont know what I would do.

[dalekphalm]

17 minutes ago, Jack the Stripper said:

This is my first time doing a Poll.

The question is - Would You Steal Millions From Corporate America and do a bit in the Penitentiary for $4M with $2M cash waiting for you when you get on the outs?

 

Circumstances of the theft would be this is your first theft over, your first offence in this category of criminal law.

 

You need to edit the poll - if you select no in the first question, it forces you to choose an option from the 2nd question. I'd recommend simply adding "Chose "No" in first question".

[Dash Lambda]

I'd steal the money, but I wouldn't do jail time for it. Not worth it.

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Dash Lambda said:

I'd steal the money, but I wouldn't do jail time for it. Not worth it.

It would have to be so much money that you could live comfortably for the rest of your life. $2m might do you for a few decades living frugally, but not at the comfort of a well paid working individual - oh... working? Good luck with finding a good job after doing time.

[Blade of Grass]

12 minutes ago, Jack the Stripper said:

For example if you sit in Remand for 6 months, you get 1 year taken off your actual jail time (so I read). If its over crowded you get 1.5 yrs credit.

Used to be true that you would generally get 2:1, but it's not anymore. The standard is now 1:1 to a max of 1.5:1 (judge discretion, as long as you did not breach the terms of your bail or detained for prior convictions, in which case you get 1:1). 

http://www.lop.parl.gc.ca/About/Parliament/LegislativeSummaries/Bills_ls.asp?ls=c25&Parl=40&Ses=2

[Dash Lambda]

14 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

It would have to be so much money that you could live comfortably for the rest of your life. $2m might do you for a few decades living frugally, but not at the comfort of a well paid working individual - oh... working? Good luck with finding a good job after doing time.

It depends on the nature of the crime. Many employers just won't look at you at all because of a criminal record, of course, but some just don't care.

As for the amount of money, I don't really care about just living comfortably. If I'm going to go to jail for an extended period of time for some money it has to be enough for me to build an advanced general scientific underground research complex with the most powerful supercomputer in the world and top-of-the-line facilities, buy the rights (if Valve doesn't just say 'go ahead') to call it Aperture, employ staff and researchers, and keep the technology up to date for the rest of my life, while still having enough extraneous money to live very comfortably (not just comfortably, very comfortably).

 

EDIT:

*The rest of my life assuming we manage to fix aging in the next few decades.

So, yeah. A lot of money.

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

It depends on the nature of the crime. Many employers just won't look at you at all because of a criminal record, of course, but some just don't care.

As for the amount of money, I don't really care about just living comfortably. If I'm going to go to jail for an extended period of time for some money it has to be enough for me to build an advanced general scientific underground research complex with the most powerful supercomputer in the world and top-of-the-line facilities, buy the rights (if Valve doesn't just say 'go ahead') to call it Aperture, employ staff and researchers, and keep the technology up to date to the rest of my life, while still having enough extraneous money to live very comfortably (not just comfortably, very comfortably).

Here's the problem. The type of crime might matter in whether someone would hire you or not, but at least in Ontario, it's QUITE common for any large company to simply have a background check run on you (you have to give permission of course) - the person doing the hiring never sees what crimes you were convicted of - they simply get a "pass" or "fail".

[Dash Lambda]

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Here's the problem. The type of crime might matter in whether someone would hire you or not, but at least in Ontario, it's QUITE common for any large company to simply have a background check run on you (you have to give permission of course) - the person doing the hiring never sees what crimes you were convicted of - they simply get a "pass" or "fail".

It does really depend on the company and position, though. Like I said, there are companies that are just binary, but then there are many that just take it into consideration (with varying degrees of importance).

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Dash Lambda said:

It does really depend on the company and position, though. Like I said, there are companies that are just binary, but then there are many that just take it into consideration (with varying degrees of importance).

Sure with some companies. But those are most definitely in the minority - or they are a company that has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

[Dash Lambda]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Sure with some companies. But those are most definitely in the minority - or they are a company that has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

I don't know how common it is really, so I can't argue that.

Though a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, while a good idea in theory, seems like it could go wrong pretty easily in practice...

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Dash Lambda said:

I don't know how common it is really, so I can't argue that.

Though a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, while a good idea in theory, seems like it could go wrong pretty easily in practice...

Well it's a risk obviously to use that policy. But assuming the position doesn't involve access to money or vulnerable people, (Eg: A factory line), then what do they care? If you're a good worker, you'll be kept. If you're a bad worker, you'll be fired. If you break the law, they'll call the police.

 

I'm not saying that you should never hire a convicted felon, just that in most places that DO check your record, the hiring manager never sees the actual results, as often they use a third party to verify you.

[killcomic]

10 minutes ago, Dash Lambda said:

I don't know how common it is really, so I can't argue that.

Though a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, while a good idea in theory, seems like it could go wrong pretty easily in practice...

Don't know how it is, wherever you are, but I've never gone for a job that didn't require a police check. It's quite common when applying for a job in Sydney at least if not all of Australia.

Now, to say how does it affect your employment prospect if you were to have a criminal record? I have no idea.

[SansVarnic]

Cannot chose just No.

[AniJan]

Never. 

I'd rather kill myself than bathe in the shame of stealing from an innocent corporation. 

[TopDollar]

6 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

It would have to be so much money that you could live comfortably for the rest of your life. $2m might do you for a few decades living frugally, but not at the comfort of a well paid working individual - oh... working? Good luck with finding a good job after doing time.

I'd say it's what you do with that $2 million that makes all the difference. Investing it to the point where you can live off of dividends would be ideal. Another option being opening your own businesses. Criminal background would be less of a concern with these options I would think. I guess the question becomes whether or not this is clean money, or is it more like the ending of Shawshank redemption.

[2FA]

If the context is stealing from a corporation that exploits loopholes and uses shady practices for personal gain because you think they are evil and don't deserve it, then you are no better than that corporation.

 

EDIT: Essentially I'm saying I can't stand hypocrisy.

[Jack the Stripper]

 

 

 

7 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

You need to edit the poll - if you select no in the first question, it forces you to choose an option from the 2nd question. I'd recommend simply adding "Chose "No" in first question".

I edited it thanks

 

7 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

It would have to be so much money that you could live comfortably for the rest of your life. $2m might do you for a few decades living frugally, but not at the comfort of a well paid working individual - oh... working? Good luck with finding a good job after doing time.

Remember that in Canada you can get a Pardon which wipes your slate clean after 3(Summary) or 5 years (Indicment). You record is sealed until you fuck up again then it can be re-opened.

 

7 hours ago, Dash Lambda said:

It depends on the nature of the crime

The employer does not have access to a CPIC scan in Canada which the cops run when they run your name. There are different levels of that scan. I know a friend of a friend who had worked for Telus and Rogers who used to rob banks and bars and no it wasnt decades ago, like a few years ago more like it. He explained to me the CPIC scan, great guy until he drinks. He basically tells the employer Yes I was convicted of a crime, it was DUI or something but I am clean and sober now. So when the company goes and does their background check, its a generic yes or no that question "Do you have a criminal record" or "Have you ever been convicted of a crime"

 

I know once you are convicted in the States you are pretty much fucked, some have had success changing their names, but I dont really know how that works. I can see how that gets around the Google effect, where people google your name. Or the records check some websites do for names.

 

I used to work with a guy who had a reno company doing high end homes. I did demo and concrete for him and he got nabbed for $5M from homeowners. He had a show on TV, was sober so he said for 12 years or so. He did the same crime in 2000, but it was just a car from some old folks. I dont know the case details of either, I dont even think the current case is even through the courts yet. Canada has a real problem with the court system backing up, they need to hire more judges and crown prosecutors but as usual the government is pretty stupid. A few criminals are getting off on their crime because of delays.

 

 

I dont understand the poll, so some of you want to steal $4M and have $2M cash waiting for you when you get out, but you would do 4-6 years? I would assume everyone would want to do a 2 yrs plus a day. But I guess the question should have been, or maybe I did write it that way. What is the maximum amount of time you are willing to do for $2M cash.

 

For me, IF and thats a big IF I did do it, I would emigrate out of country. Move to another country where the cost of living is low but the crime rate is reasonably not too high. I would not renounce my citizenship though, I would still have a "home" in Canada just in case I would require or need any medical services.

 

 

[dalekphalm]

14 hours ago, TopDollar said:

I'd say it's what you do with that $2 million that makes all the difference. Investing it to the point where you can live off of dividends would be ideal. Another option being opening your own businesses. Criminal background would be less of a concern with these options I would think. I guess the question becomes whether or not this is clean money, or is it more like the ending of Shawshank redemption.

Sure if you invest it, but that assumes you already have money to start with. $2m at %1 return (very conservative, sure, but we're not gonna bank on some magically high return rate) annually is only $20,000 a year. That's NOT very much money. You could live off $20,000 a year, but it's not what I would consider a good lifestyle.

 

Starting a business could work, if you had a good business model and could drive and build the business. A lot of work, and risky still. You could easily lose it all with a failed business.

13 hours ago, Jack the Stripper said:

 

 

 

I edited it thanks

 

Remember that in Canada you can get a Pardon which wipes your slate clean after 3(Summary) or 5 years (Indicment). You record is sealed until you fuck up again then it can be re-opened.

 

The employer does not have access to a CPIC scan in Canada which the cops run when they run your name. There are different levels of that scan. I know a friend of a friend who had worked for Telus and Rogers who used to rob banks and bars and no it wasnt decades ago, like a few years ago more like it. He explained to me the CPIC scan, great guy until he drinks. He basically tells the employer Yes I was convicted of a crime, it was DUI or something but I am clean and sober now. So when the company goes and does their background check, its a generic yes or no that question "Do you have a criminal record" or "Have you ever been convicted of a crime"

 

I know once you are convicted in the States you are pretty much fucked, some have had success changing their names, but I dont really know how that works. I can see how that gets around the Google effect, where people google your name. Or the records check some websites do for names.

 

I used to work with a guy who had a reno company doing high end homes. I did demo and concrete for him and he got nabbed for $5M from homeowners. He had a show on TV, was sober so he said for 12 years or so. He did the same crime in 2000, but it was just a car from some old folks. I dont know the case details of either, I dont even think the current case is even through the courts yet. Canada has a real problem with the court system backing up, they need to hire more judges and crown prosecutors but as usual the government is pretty stupid. A few criminals are getting off on their crime because of delays.

 

 

I dont understand the poll, so some of you want to steal $4M and have $2M cash waiting for you when you get out, but you would do 4-6 years? I would assume everyone would want to do a 2 yrs plus a day. But I guess the question should have been, or maybe I did write it that way. What is the maximum amount of time you are willing to do for $2M cash.

 

For me, IF and thats a big IF I did do it, I would emigrate out of country. Move to another country where the cost of living is low but the crime rate is reasonably not too high. I would not renounce my citizenship though, I would still have a "home" in Canada just in case I would require or need any medical services.

 

 

Getting a Pardon is NOT easy in Canada. The process itself can take upwards of 2+ years to complete, and costs quite a bit of money for all the fees and forms and things you need to do.

 

How can you not understand the poll? You're the one who created it.

 

I for one, IF I were to steal that money, would rightfully serve the sentence that is deserved. Not just the lowest sentence I can get out on. But I wouldn't steal the money, so yeah. It makes you just as bad as the corporations so many people call evil.

 

And I would sure as hell not risk jail time for only $2m CAD - fuck that. Add a zero (or two) and we're talking. The risk is far too high for relatively minimal gains. $2m sounds like a lot of money, until you consider that someone with a well paying job can save that much in investments/savings over their working career, if not even more.

[TopDollar]

9 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Sure if you invest it, but that assumes you already have money to start with. $2m at %1 return (very conservative, sure, but we're not gonna bank on some magically high return rate) annually is only $20,000 a year. That's NOT very much money. You could live off $20,000 a year, but it's not what I would consider a good lifestyle.

1% is a bit of a low return for the stock market. Even a simple savings account with Barclays offers a 1.0% APY. Invested over the long term, 7% return is probably more realistic; at least according to Warren Buffet. If I were put into that situation, I would most likely invest $1m of the money, $500,000 into a savings or money-market account, another $250,000 in other various investments, and the other $250,000 for daily living until I can figure out how to make money off the investments. Having a good lawyer and a financial adviser on retainer would probably be good thing to do as well.

[Thunderpup]

22 hours ago, Jack the Stripper said:

You dont do the full term Dan. In Canada it is 1/6 the term for non violent, non drug, no gun crime. It might be 1/5 for good behaviour. Sometimes I read about people getting double or triple time for Remand time. I should have added which penal system it is in. Let me think about that one. I would have to say USA as its much harsher penal system then Canada (So I hear).

 

For example if you sit in Remand for 6 months, you get 1 year taken off your actual jail time (so I read). If its over crowded you get 1.5 yrs credit.

 

Me personally, I dont know what I would do.

 

 

No matter how short the stint is it wouldn't be worth it cause you would do time plus lose the money you stole.  The only real way to keep the money is to leave the country.  

[Jack the Stripper]

Thats just the thing @Thunderpup - You dont really know what the authorities do in cases like this. Its like bank robbery you never hear of the amount they stole. However if one is smart about doing crime and if they plan ahead, you could easily steal $4M and stash a couple million somewhere whether it be over sea's or in a hole in the ground somewhere.

 

As far as investments go, you would never be able to do that because the government would be garnishing any legitimate earnings you made. Thats not to say you could still earn a living, it would just be cash jobs under the table if you were working for someone, or if you had your own gig there would be easy ways to set up shell companies or just work for cash. Either way it would be wise to leave the country to a more affordable living country, its tempting to say Mexico or Honduras but those countries have the highest murder rate due to the trafficking of drugs which relates to extortions and a host of other crimes.

 

 

@dalekphalm - Cost of a Pardon is cheap in my opinion, about $1500 and yes it takes time but well worth it in the end. I know several people who have gotten pardons and it never took them 2 years, quite a bit less but their cases were simple and not spread out geographically.

 

Yes its the amount of time YOUR willing to do, not what is given because that is all dependant on the lawyer you hire, the judge and the crown. For the same crime under the same circumstances with the same history you can get a wide variation in the sentence. It all depends on how everyone is feeling that day and if the balance is just right. A 2.01 year sentence equates to less then 6 months in the pen for a "clean" cat, which would be eaten up in Remand time which is what I would do even though it is much harsher then pen time, mentally speaking but you wouldnt have to worry about politics while inside though not much of that goes on while doing your bit in Canada. Everyone just wants to stay minimum you know. Its the max + med cats that puff out their chests.

 

I would have to agree that this type of crime would be suitable for someone who has menial job pay. Even at $50k/yr = $26/hr minus 26-29% tax rate (fed) + 10% (prov) they would rake in $30k/yr so a $2M jackpot is 60 yrs worth of working. Now lets say their income if working increased to $75k/yr at 10 yrs minus taxes = $45k even then $2M is 50 years. $100k = $60k = 40yrs. $150k = $90k = 30yrs. All given the same tax rate, even though in reality that wouldnt be the case.

 

Thats not to say you can still work and easily make that income, it would be very easy to do actually. There would be some sectors that a police check is required but those in general are not well paying jobs. Child care, elderly care, medical. While construction is ideal when not working on government stuff.

[dalekphalm]

9 minutes ago, Jack the Stripper said:

Thats just the thing @Thunderpup - You dont really know what the authorities do in cases like this. Its like bank robbery you never hear of the amount they stole. However if one is smart about doing crime and if they plan ahead, you could easily steal $4M and stash a couple million somewhere whether it be over sea's or in a hole in the ground somewhere.

 

As far as investments go, you would never be able to do that because the government would be garnishing any legitimate earnings you made. Thats not to say you could still earn a living, it would just be cash jobs under the table if you were working for someone, or if you had your own gig there would be easy ways to set up shell companies or just work for cash. Either way it would be wise to leave the country to a more affordable living country, its tempting to say Mexico or Honduras but those countries have the highest murder rate due to the trafficking of drugs which relates to extortions and a host of other crimes.

 

 

@dalekphalm - Cost of a Pardon is cheap in my opinion, about $1500 and yes it takes time but well worth it in the end. I know several people who have gotten pardons and it never took them 2 years, quite a bit less but their cases were simple and not spread out geographically.

 

Yes its the amount of time YOUR willing to do, not what is given because that is all dependant on the lawyer you hire, the judge and the crown. For the same crime under the same circumstances with the same history you can get a wide variation in the sentence. It all depends on how everyone is feeling that day and if the balance is just right. A 2.01 year sentence equates to less then 6 months in the pen for a "clean" cat, which would be eaten up in Remand time which is what I would do even though it is much harsher then pen time, mentally speaking but you wouldnt have to worry about politics while inside though not much of that goes on while doing your bit.

 

I would have to agree that this type of crime would be suitable for someone who has menial job pay. Even at $50k/yr = $26/hr minus 26-29% tax rate (fed) + 10% (prov) they would rake in $30k/yr so a $2M jackpot is 60 yrs worth of working. Now lets say their income if working increased to $75k/yr at 10 yrs minus taxes = $45k even then $2M is 30 years (being generous on that #). $100k = $60k = 40yrs. $150k = $90k = 30yrs. All given the same tax rate, even though in reality that wouldnt be the case.

 

Thats not to say you can still work and easily make that income, it would be very easy to do actually.

You're not considering investing the money you earn. It's not as simple as saying someone who makes $50K per year = $2M 60 years later. Ideally, they are saving and investing their savings, which will grow faster and larger. Granted, it won't make a ridiculous difference unless they get lucky with an investment, but it's still a difference to consider.

 

As for the rest, I won't deny that in the grand scheme of things, a Pardon is not that expensive. But people who need them generally don't have a good job to begin with, and often cannot afford the $1500 or so to get one.