Phil Schiller Elaborates on Power Concerns with 32GB MacBook Pro

[Keco185]

Phil Schiller Says 32GB RAM on New MacBook Pro Would Have Required Battery Compromising Design

Source 1: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/21/phil-schiller-32gb-ram-mbp-logic-board/

Source 2: https://macdaddy.io/macbook-pro-limited-16gb-ram/

 

Schiller on 32GB power concerns:

Quote

The MacBook Pro uses 16GB of very fast LPDDR memory, up to 2133MHz. To support 32GB of memory would require using DDR memory that is not low power and also require a different design of the logic board which might reduce space for batteries. Both factors would reduce battery life.

 

Schiller on LPDDR3 over DDR4:

Quote

Apple have been using LPDDR for several generations of their notebooks, and it’s part of the way that they get very long standby time on them. Switching to DDR4 would drastically decrease it from the 30 days of standby time that they get now to less than one week. With DDR4 they’d have produced a notebook that would have a completely drained battery if it was at 50% charge and you closed the lid and left it for a few days. Not only would that be annoying, but by running the battery flat often it would end up damaging a percentage of their batteries because they’d frequently get 100% discharged, which puts a lot of stress on them, and sometimes even kills them.

 

 

 

[dalekphalm]

41 minutes ago, Keco185 said:

Phil Schiller Says 32GB RAM on New MacBook Pro Would Have Required Battery Compromising Design

Source 1: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/21/phil-schiller-32gb-ram-mbp-logic-board/

Source 2: https://macdaddy.io/macbook-pro-limited-16gb-ram/

 

Schiller on 32GB power concerns:

 

Schiller on LPDDR3 over DDR4:

 

 

 

Who the HELL doesn't charge their laptop for a WEEK?

 

This just confirms it for me. Phil Schiller doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about - or he's marketing to people that don't exist.

 

I know multiple people with Macbooks (Both Air and Pro) and not one of them will leave their computer in standby mode for more then a day.

 

Furthermore, who fucking cares if the battery dies after leaving it in standby mode for 3 days? macOS should have built in protections that will write current memory to the HDD, and safely shut down the laptop once the battery reaches critical low state. This is STANDARD technology that has been in laptops for literally over a decade.

 

They've designed the RAM and power system to solve a problem that no one has...

[Hunter259]

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Who the HELL doesn't charge their laptop for a WEEK?

 

This just confirms it for me. Phil Schiller doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about - or he's marketing to people that don't exist.

 

I know multiple people with Macbooks (Both Air and Pro) and not one of them will leave their computer in standby mode for more then a day.

 

Furthermore, who fucking cares if the battery dies after leaving it in standby mode for 3 days? macOS should have built in protections that will write current memory to the HDD, and safely shut down the laptop once the battery reaches critical low state. This is STANDARD technology that has been in laptops for literally over a decade.

 

They've designed the RAM and power system to solve a problem that no one has...

It does. I've had mine die after forgetting to charge it after a few days. Plug it in and it comes right back to where it was. Phil is just the marketing guy. I believe Ive is the real dipshit in all of this.

[RedRound2]

13 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Who the HELL doesn't charge their laptop for a WEEK?

 

This just confirms it for me. Phil Schiller doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about - or he's marketing to people that don't exist.

 

I know multiple people with Macbooks (Both Air and Pro) and not one of them will leave their computer in standby mode for more then a day.

 

Furthermore, who fucking cares if the battery dies after leaving it in standby mode for 3 days? macOS should have built in protections that will write current memory to the HDD, and safely shut down the laptop once the battery reaches critical low state. This is STANDARD technology that has been in laptops for literally over a decade.

 

They've designed the RAM and power system to solve a problem that no one has...

 

This is pretty common. Many people including me never shut down the laptop just because I can resume my work easily. I believe this is a valid explanation because that's how people use their MacBooks 

 

@LinusTech is this a better explanation?

[dalekphalm]

4 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

This is pretty common. Many people including me never shut down the laptop just because I can resume my work easily. I believe this is a valid explanation because that's how people use their MacBooks 

 

@LinusTech is this a better explanation?

That might be how some people use theirs, but of all the (anecdotal, to be sure) people I know who have a Macbook, literally none of them uses it like that.

 

You're telling me that you'll go more than a day without using your Macbook? No College person I've ever met would go more than 2 days max without using theirs (and that would be very unusual, like off to the parents house for the weekend visiting them).

 

If I know I won't be using my laptop for a while, I'll plug it in. I agree - most laptop users don't shut their laptop off, but the battery savings of this vs DDR4 is pretty negligible in that department.

 

You'd still get really good operational battery life, and your standby time would still be quite serviceable. We're still looking at about 1 week of standby time at 100% charge. At 50% charge, you get a few days standby time - that's great still.

[RedRound2]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

That might be how some people use theirs, but of all the (anecdotal, to be sure) people I know who have a Macbook, literally none of them uses it like that.

 

Well a lot do including me

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

You're telling me that you'll go more than a day without using your Macbook? No College person I've ever met would go more than 2 days max without using theirs (and that would be very unusual, like off to the parents house for the weekend visiting them).

1

Didn't say I would go a day without using the laptop. However, it's always awesome to see the battery level remaining the same when you open it up. Also when I do get home, I'll use my custom rig so at the time I will put my laptop on standby for extended periods. It's just those minor conveniences that make a huge difference on the way you use things

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

If I know I won't be using my laptop for a while, I'll plug it in. I agree - most laptop users don't shut their laptop off, but the battery savings of this vs DDR4 is pretty negligible in that department.

 

You'd still get really good operational battery life, and your standby time would still be quite serviceable. We're still looking at about 1 week of standby time at 100% charge. At 50% charge, you get a few days standby time - that's great still.

 

It does go into standby after a while doesn't it?

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

You'd still get really good operational battery life, and your standby time would still be quite serviceable. We're still looking at about 1 week of standby time at 100% charge. At 50% charge, you get a few days standby time - that's great still.

 

The more the better isn't it. Plus there is other design compromises apple has to make in order to fit an SODIMM memory. Plus as I said above, no difference in battery level is always satisfying

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

Well a lot do including me

Didn't say I would go a day without using the laptop. However, it's always awesome to see the battery level remaining the same when you open it up. Also when I do get home, I'll use my custom rig so at the time I will put my laptop on standby for extended periods. It's just those minor conveniences that make a huge difference on the way you use things

It does go into standby after a while doesn't it?

The more the better isn't it. Plus there is other design compromises apple has to make in order to fit an SODIMM memory. Plus as I said above, no difference in battery level is always satisfying

Obviously, to each their own. Everyone has their own preferences for features and compromises.

 

But Apple screwed up by not allowing a 32GB model - even if that 32GB model had, say, worse standby battery time.

 

This is the Macbook Pro, not the Air or the regular Macbook. 32GB as an option shouldn't even be a question, it should just be there.

 

The 2016 Macbook Pro should have been branded as the 2016 Macbook. Then, most of the "compromises" would at least make sense.

[RedRound2]

3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Obviously, to each their own. Everyone has their own preferences for features and compromises.

 

But Apple screwed up by not allowing a 32GB model - even if that 32GB model had, say, worse standby battery time.

 

This is the Macbook Pro, not the Air or the regular Macbook. 32GB as an option shouldn't even be a question, it should just be there.

 

The 2016 Macbook Pro should have been branded as the 2016 Macbook. Then, most of the "compromises" would at least make sense.

 

 

 

Very very few people need 32GB notebook now. They're better off with a desktop

with better CPU and GPU if they use about 32GB RAM.

And don't worry, they will move to LPDDR4 when they refresh their MacBook next year with Cannonlake/Coffee Lake processors

[dalekphalm]

15 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Very very few people need 32GB notebook now. They're better off with a desktop

with better CPU and GPU if they use about 32GB RAM.

And don't worry, they will move to LPDDR4 when they refresh their MacBook next year with Cannonlake/Coffee Lake processors

Very few people - but that does not mean no people. And they aren't always better off with a desktop. Most people that need 32GB either already have a Desktop for when they're not out and about, or they're using it as a Desktop replacement.

 

Also, only specific workloads require a dGPU, there are many scenarios that have high RAM usage and little or no GPU usage.

[potoooooooo]

54 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Who the HELL doesn't charge their laptop for a WEEK?

 

This just confirms it for me. Phil Schiller doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about - or he's marketing to people that don't exist.

 

I know multiple people with Macbooks (Both Air and Pro) and not one of them will leave their computer in standby mode for more then a day.

 

Furthermore, who fucking cares if the battery dies after leaving it in standby mode for 3 days? macOS should have built in protections that will write current memory to the HDD, and safely shut down the laptop once the battery reaches critical low state. This is STANDARD technology that has been in laptops for literally over a decade.

 

They've designed the RAM and power system to solve a problem that no one has...

I don't. I only charge it when it needs it, usually every week or two

[RedRound2]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Very few people - but that does not mean no people. And they aren't always better off with a desktop. Most people that need 32GB either already have a Desktop for when they're not out and about, or they're using it as a Desktop replacement.

 

Also, only specific workloads require a dGPU, there are many scenarios that have high RAM usage and little or no GPU usage.

 

No laptop is designed for everyone. It's not worth the extra confusion regarding battery life to mass manufacture a completely different model with a bigger battery and 32GB RAM. Again you're clinging on to the very few people who will ever need it and if they're smart enough they won't buy it and will rather wait for next version

[dalekphalm]

6 minutes ago, potoooooooo said:

I don't. I only charge it when it needs it, usually every week or two

Fair enough, but I would consider that unusual. And frankly, if you had to charge it every 3-4 days instead of every week or two, would that really be a big inconvenience?

 

For people who don't require 32GB of RAM, there's no downside to the current way they did it. But the lack of choice is rather perplexing, frankly.

 

7 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

No laptop is designed for everyone. It's not worth the extra confusion regarding battery life to mass manufacture a completely different model with a bigger battery and 32GB RAM. Again you're clinging on to the very few people who will ever need it and if they're smart enough they won't buy it and will rather wait for next version

Obviously manufacturing a completely different design just for the 32GB RAM option isn't viable in practice. They should have simply designed it with a 32GB choice in mind.

 

You're assuming that the amount of people who need 32GB is very small. I personally have no idea what the distribution between Macbook Pro users who need 32GB vs 16GB is. Do you?

 

This entire Macbook Pro release feels like "You should have waited until the next version". So many compromises because they tried to do something the technology (or industry) wasn't ready yet.

[RedRound2]

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

You're assuming that the amount of people who need 32GB is very small. I personally have no idea what the distribution between Macbook Pro users who need 32GB vs 16GB is. Do you?

 

Nope, but I've used Premier, Final Cut, photoshop and after effects on my custom rig with 8GB and 16GB and I find 16GB more than enough for my usage (editing 4K videos btw). The only way I can reach close to full consumption is if I intentionally open multiple projects

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

This entire Macbook Pro release feels like "You should have waited until the next version". So many compromises because they tried to do something the technology (or industry) wasn't ready yet.

 

I was only talking about the RAM. Everything else according to me are fine, good speakers, great display, 4 thunderbolt 3 ports, awesome design, OLED touchbar, etc

[dalekphalm]

Just now, RedRound2 said:

Nope, but I've used Premier, Final Cut, photoshop and after effects on my custom rig with 8GB and 16GB and I find 16GB more than enough for my usage (editing 4K videos btw). The only way I can reach close to full consumption is if I intentionally open multiple projects

I was only talking about the RAM. Everything else according to me are fine, good speakers, great display, 4 thunderbolt 3 ports, awesome design, OLED touchbar, etc

And that's fine that you feel the computer is well suited for your workload.

 

That doesn't mean others cannot legitimately criticize it for other things people feel it lacks.

 

The potential (unconfirmed) report that plugging in 2 chargers at once and killing it, for example. The lack of a MagSafe is another example. The fact that if you buy a brand new top of the line iPhone 7, and a brand new top of the line 2016 Macbook Pro, and you cannot connect them together out of the box...

 

Some people find these things unacceptable. Others, are not impacted by these limitations, and therefore don't seem to mind.

[Arri]

Looks like a valid decision by Apple. 

 

If you are a part of the small minority who does need 32gb of RAM, then perhaps it's time to realize that this laptop isn't for you or you should be looking at a desktop solution. 

 

Also, I find it ironic that those complaining about having to charge multiple devices everyday are the same ones bewildered that a company designed a product in a way that isn't supposed to be charged everyday.

[Dabombinable]

Oh fuck off. This Asus U38N with its small 3 cell battery-far smaller than that found inside Macbook, with DDR3 1333, can be left in standby for weeks. And its a 4 year old laptop with a worn battery.

 

Edit: Its got a Trinity APU BTW, the A8 4555M

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Arri said:

Looks like a valid decision by Apple. 

 

If you are a part of the small minority who does need 32gb of RAM, then perhaps it's time to realize that this laptop isn't for you or you should be looking at a desktop solution. 

And if you need a portable solution with 32GB of RAM? Saying "Tough luck, buy a desktop" is ridiculous, when dozens (potentially hundreds, over the years) of other models of Laptops have 32GB as an option without sacrificing incredible amounts of battery life.

 

What they should realize is that Macbook Pro is misnamed, and that it should be called "Macbook", and they should make a totally different, higher powered, more IO, w/ 32GB RAM option as the Macbook Pro.

[Arri]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

And if you need a portable solution with 32GB of RAM? Saying "Tough luck, buy a desktop" is ridiculous, when dozens (potentially hundreds, over the years) of other models of Laptops have 32GB as an option without sacrificing incredible amounts of battery life.

 

What they should realize is that Macbook Pro is misnamed, and that it should be called "Macbook", and they should make a totally different, higher powered, more IO, w/ 32GB RAM option as the Macbook Pro.

Then buy them? Or is that concept too hard to grasp?

[RedRound2]

10 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

That doesn't mean others cannot legitimately criticize it for other things people feel it lacks.

 

Apple gave their reasoning. It wasn't intentional and you can blame Intel for delaying Kaby Lake quad cores for that matter if you wanted to blame someone here

Quote

The potential (unconfirmed) report that plugging in 2 chargers at once and killing it, for example. The lack of a MagSafe is another example. The fact that if you buy a brand new top of the line iPhone 7, and a brand new top of the line 2016 Macbook Pro, and you cannot connect them together out of the box...

 

 

The charger thing is stupid and it's impossible to have overlooked the fact during manufacturing. So I'd lean with a firm no, that isn't the case

MagSafe had its advantages but Apple moved into a universal standard and connecting a single cable to power up your barebones desktop system while the laptop gets charges is frankly cool and futuristic. Will I miss MagSafe, yes but there had to be compromise somewhere here

The third point, I honestly don't give a fuck because I do everything wirelessly. Besides 95% of iPhone 7 owners probably have Type A USB port rather than Type C, so it makes sense they went with Type A. It's one of the things that bothers me about Nexus 6P, it doesn't have any kind of proper wireless syncing and you can't connect it to a traditional computer due to it's type C end. But I'm pretty sure Apple will make it type C for iPhone 8 as a part of move the industry forward movement they're going with these days

Quote

 

[Arri]

4 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

-snip-

 

But I'm pretty sure Apple will make it type C for iPhone 8 as a part of move the industry forward movement they're going with these days

Yup. The whole industry is going to moving to type-C especially with Apple pushing so aggressively for it.

 

For those who stay with legacy products, they'll inevitably have to buy a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter (where as right now people need USB-C male to USB-A female) but that is the cost of progress.

 

Honestly can't wait for the future of buying a single $5 USB-C cable that I can use universally across my devices. Need video output? $5 cable. Connect my audio interface to my computer? $5 cable. etc etc.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Arri said:

Then buy them?

And for those users who were formerly Macbook Pro 32GB users? Tough luck, go buy a Windows Laptop, I guess?

1 minute ago, RedRound2 said:

Apple gave their reasoning. It wasn't intentional and you can blame Intel for delaying Kaby Lake quad cores for that matter if you wanted to blame someone here

The charger thing is stupid and it's impossible to have overlooked the fact during manufacturing. So I'd lean with a firm, no that isn't the case

MagSafe had its advantages but Apple moved into a universal standard and connecting a single cable to power up your barebones desktop system while the laptop gets charges is frankly cool and futuristic. Will I miss MagSafe, yes but there had to be compromise somewhere here

The third point, I honestly don't give a fuck because I do everything wirelessly. Besides 95% of iPhone 7 owners probably have Type A USB port rather than Type C, so it makes sense they went with Type A. It's one of the things that bothers me about Nexus 6P, it doesn't have any kind of proper wireless syncing and you can't connect it to a traditional computer due to it's type C end. But I'm pretty sure Apple will make it type C for iPhone 8 as a part of move the industry forward movement they're going with these days

I do blame Intel, but that doesn't make Apple blameless. They decided to release a product which had to compromise because they didn't want to wait until the technological solutions were released.

 

Impossible to overlook? No. You're just guessing and have zero evidence of that. I agree, the charger thing is unlikely to have been missed during QA, but I will not rule it out until further testing totally dismisses the possibility. The testing was flawed, sure, but that also doesn't mean it was wrong.

 

The thing is, you can have BOTH. I have no idea why people are all like "Well if we kept MagSafe, we wouldn't have this cool charging feature". Like hell. If they wanted to, they could design a power controller that will switch safely between any of the USB-C ports, or the MagSafe port, on the fly.

 

You can have your Cake and eat it too, under the right circumstances. They could have kept the MagSafe and enabled USB-C charging, with built-in failsafes that will ensure only one port is ever charging at a time.

 

10 minutes ago, Arri said:

Also, I find it ironic that those complaining about having to charge multiple devices everyday are the same ones bewildered that a company designed a product in a way that isn't supposed to be charged everyday.

That's an unsubstantiated claim. Feel free to back it up.

 

Furthermore, you know what the solution is that most of those people probably gave? BIGGER BATTERY WITH A SLIGHTLY THICKER LAPTOP. Laptops are so thin these days that adding a few mm here and there, people won't even notice.

 

3 minutes ago, Arri said:

Yup. The whole industry is going to moving to type-C especially with Apple pushing so aggressively for it.

 

For those who stay with legacy products, they'll inevitably have to buy a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter (where as right now people need USB-C male to USB-A female) but that is the cost of progress.

 

Honestly can't wait for the future of buying a single $5 USB-C cable that I can use universally across my devices. Need video output? $5 cable. Connect my audio interface to my computer? $5 cable. etc etc.

It'll be great once we get there, but we're not there. We've had industry shifts before, and in the past, it was much smoother because the old standard and the new standard co-existed on most platforms for a time.

 

Take the PS2 port. Hell you can still find motherboards with PS2 ports on them. Did that hold back USB-A on mice? Nope. Same with RS232 serial and Gameport. Same with Parallel port for printers. Same with VGA vs HDMI (Although VGA is still common in business environments).

 

The proper way to usher in a new standard connector is:

1. Produce a host device (laptop, desktop, etc) that has both the new and old standard

2. Produce peripherals that use the standard

3. Show people the advantages of the new system

4. People will buy the new system as their peripherals age and need replacing, or as they find the advantage is worth re-buying

 

Forcing it with dozens of adapters and dongles is the wrong way to do it.

[Arri]

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

And for those users who were formerly Macbook Pro 32GB users? Tough luck, go buy a Windows Laptop, I guess?

 

It'll be great once we get there, but we're not there. We've had industry shifts before, and in the past, it was much smoother because the old standard and the new standard co-existed on most platforms for a time.

 

Take the PS2 port. Hell you can still find motherboards with PS2 ports on them. Did that hold back USB-A on mice? Nope. Same with RS232 serial and Gameport. Same with Parallel port for printers. Same with VGA vs HDMI (Although VGA is still common in business environments).

 

The proper way to usher in a new standard connector is:

1. Produce a host device (laptop, desktop, etc) that has both the new and old standard

2. Produce peripherals that use the standard

3. Show people the advantages of the new system

4. People will buy the new system as their peripherals age and need replacing, or as they find the advantage is worth re-buying

 

Forcing it with dozens of adapters and dongles is the wrong way to do it.

1) If they need 32GB so badly, why don't they stick with the MacBook Pro that they got? Why upgrade to a 16gb Pro when they already got a 32GB solution?

 

2) "Take the PS2 port. Hell you can still find motherboards with PS2 ports on them."

 

and that is exactly the problem with that route. Decades upon decades of inefficiencies (multiple legacy ports) because the market wasn't forced to adopt to the new standard.

 

I'm not saying Apple's way is the best way but I'd rather not have decades of legacy ports on my laptop when that space can be used for better things.

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Arri said:

1) If they need 32GB so badly, why don't they stick with the MacBook Pro that they got? Why upgrade to a 16gb Pro when they already got a 32GB solution?

 

2) Yea and look how long that transition took? Decades upon decades of inefficiencies (multiple legacy ports) because the market wasn't forced to adopt to the new standard.

 

I'm not saying Apple's way is the best way but I'd rather not have decades of legacy ports on my laptop when that space can be used for better things.

1. Maybe they wanted upgraded specs? Their mistake I guess... The problem is that the Macbook Pro 2016 is a downgrade in some respects compared to its previous counterpart.

 

2. That transition was pretty fine. It took a long time but happened naturally, and in any instances where the new standard was obviously superior in specific situations, it generally caught on very quickly, without the need for dozens of adapters.

[Arri]

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

1. Maybe they wanted upgraded specs? Their mistake I guess... The problem is that the Macbook Pro 2016 is a downgrade in some respects compared to its previous counterpart.

 

2. That transition was pretty fine. It took a long time but happened naturally, and in any instances where the new standard was obviously superior in specific situations, it generally caught on very quickly, without the need for dozens of adapters.

1) exactly, so they should be content that they have a superior product (to them) already in their hands, no? Or are we now complaining for the sake of complaining?

 

2) pretty fine is an overstatement. Technology should not be held back, it should be allowed to grow at whatever speed it is capable of. We should be encouraging progress, not stifling it.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, Arri said:

1) exactly, so they should be content that they have a superior product already in their hands, no? Or are we now complaining for the sake of complaining?

 

2) pretty fine is an overstatement. Technology should not be held back, it should be allowed to grow at whatever speed it is capable of. We should be encouraging progress, not stifling it.

1. What? That's an incredibly weak counter argument. I think more then anything else, a 32GB Macbook Pro user is going to be disappointed in the new Macbook Pro. Maybe they were hoping for an upgrade? Maybe they were looking forward to getting some USB-C Thunderbolt ports (Just, you know, not exclusively that port)? You're dismissing a large userbase, for what?

 

2. Indeed, but this is not encouraging progress, this is letting Apple sell us a bunch of adapters. Sure you can get some third party ones, but a lot of Apple users simply buy whats at the Apple Store.

 

Encouraging progress would be flooding the market with peripherals that already have USB-C on them. Peripherals that have a substantial benefit to the old peripherals that were using USB-A.