US - Colorado Amendment 69

[Maxxtraxx]

I'm interested to hear any thoughts on this constitutional amendment currently ready to go up for vote in Colorado.

 

In short, it is an amendment to Colorado's constitution to create an organization that dictates all healthcare in the state and operates outside of state government and collects taxes at it's own discretion to fund itself.

 

I must say up front, I am conservative(likely extremely so I most people's minds) in my moral's and values I am very against this entire amendment.

I believe the government should as small as possible and restrict it's intrusion into lives and economy as much as possible.

 

Some of the biggest problems in my eyes are as follows:

 

Little to No accountability: The 21 member board that makes all the decisions has seemingly unrestricted freedom without any accountability to the public. They set their own pay, can assess unlimited income taxes... that is raise taxes without any approval(TABOR does not apply), decide who gets what healthcare, are not bound by HIPAA(doctor patient confidentiality).

 

Taxes: 25,000,000,000(billion) dollar tax increase(1/3 to 1/2 of the current state budget?): By implementing 10% payroll taxes(3.33% employee paid, 6.66% employer paid) will increase the state income tax to 14.63 percent, the highest in the country. PLUS a 10% tax on all non-payroll income.

 

All personal health care data will be stored in a database for publicly available research.

 

Is estimated to have an 8,000,000,000(billion) dollar shortfall by it's 10th year.

[Maxxtraxx]

Here is a link to the actual Amendment document:

 

http://www.coloradocare.org/amendment-69/

[AshleyAshes]

You Americans and your fear of healthcare.  It's adorable.  

[kaiju_wars]

52 minutes ago, Maxxtraxx said:

I'm interested to hear any thoughts on this constitutional amendment currently ready to go up for vote in Colorado.

 

In short, it is an amendment to Colorado's constitution to create an organization that dictates all healthcare in the state and operates outside of state government and collects taxes at it's own discretion to fund itself.

 

I must say up front, I am conservative(likely extremely so I most people's minds) in my moral's and values I am very against this entire amendment.

I believe the government should as small as possible and restrict it's intrusion into lives and economy as much as possible.

 

Some of the biggest problems in my eyes are as follows:

 

Little to No accountability: The 21 member board that makes all the decisions has seemingly unrestricted freedom without any accountability to the public. They set their own pay, can assess unlimited income taxes... that is raise taxes without any approval(TABOR does not apply), decide who gets what healthcare, are not bound by HIPAA(doctor patient confidentiality).

 

Taxes: 25,000,000,000(billion) dollar tax increase(1/3 to 1/2 of the current state budget?): By implementing 10% payroll taxes(3.33% employee paid, 6.66% employer paid) will increase the state income tax to 14.63 percent, the highest in the country. PLUS a 10% tax on all non-payroll income.

 

All personal health care data will be stored in a database for publicly available research.

 

Is estimated to have an 8,000,000,000(billion) dollar shortfall by it's 10th year.

While I'd consider myself a moderate conservative, I do believe there either needs to be free healthcare, (or more realistic) more affordable healthcare.  But this is ridiculous.  If they are going to do 'free' healthcare, it needs to be put in control of the state government.  

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, Maxxtraxx said:

I'm interested to hear any thoughts on this constitutional amendment currently ready to go up for vote in Colorado.

 

In short, it is an amendment to Colorado's constitution to create an organization that dictates all healthcare in the state and operates outside of state government and collects taxes at it's own discretion to fund itself.

 

I must say up front, I am conservative(likely extremely so I most people's minds) in my moral's and values I am very against this entire amendment.

I believe the government should as small as possible and restrict it's intrusion into lives and economy as much as possible.

 

Some of the biggest problems in my eyes are as follows:

 

Little to No accountability: The 21 member board that makes all the decisions has seemingly unrestricted freedom without any accountability to the public. They set their own pay, can assess unlimited income taxes... that is raise taxes without any approval(TABOR does not apply), decide who gets what healthcare, are not bound by HIPAA(doctor patient confidentiality).

 

Taxes: 25,000,000,000(billion) dollar tax increase(1/3 to 1/2 of the current state budget?): By implementing 10% payroll taxes(3.33% employee paid, 6.66% employer paid) will increase the state income tax to 14.63 percent, the highest in the country. PLUS a 10% tax on all non-payroll income.

 

All personal health care data will be stored in a database for publicly available research.

 

Is estimated to have an 8,000,000,000(billion) dollar shortfall by it's 10th year.

My major issue with this would be the lack of accountability and/or oversight.

 

Also, (perhaps because you're against it), you didn't talk about any of the benefits, nor exactly what this would do.

 

Are you saying this would create a tax funded, single payer healthcare system in the state of Colorado? Meaning that you pay taxes, and in return, healthcare is free to use when needed?

[Donut417]

2 hours ago, AshleyAshes said:

You Americans and your fear of healthcare.  It's adorable.  

Its not that we fear it. It just when body's are put in charge of something and dont have Government protections on them. I at least get concerned. Now thats a private body in a way. The Government doesn't do much better. Obama Care has penalties for not having insurance. Even if you can afford it, which causes more people like me to go on Welfare and get state insurance and not have to pay shit. 

 

@Maxxtraxx Im a Bernie Sanders supporter and I think this is a bad move. More bureaucracy isnt going to solve the issues. This will raise costs on families causing more people not being able to afford their drugs or medical care. Although I would almost consider my self a socialist LOL, I dont think its about Big Government VS. Small Government, its about having the right size. I would agree in some ways the Government is way too big. 

[Canada EH]

Yes healthcare is a sticky subject, taxes are a sticky subject, but let me have my 100 round clip for protection, sport and hunting.

[NavyCuda]

10 hours ago, Canada EH said:

Yes healthcare is a sticky subject, taxes are a sticky subject, but let me have my 100 round clip for protection, sport and hunting.

There is a difference between a clip and a magazine.

 

Healthcare in Canada is not free and it's mostly a joke anyways.

[dalekphalm]

9 minutes ago, NavyCuda said:

There is a difference between a clip and a magazine.

 

Healthcare in Canada is not free and it's mostly a joke anyways.

No healthcare is "free", if you're gonna split hairs. But it's paid for by your taxes, and therefore, free to use at any moment, as long as you have your Health Card (And I do believe they can't turn you away in an emergency, even if you don't have your health card).

 

I highly disagree with the second statement though - Our healthcare isn't perfect by any stretch, but show me one that is? America is a fucking joke. If you're rich, sure you can get the best healthcare money can buy. If you're poor? Hahahah good luck, hope you're insured.

 

Maybe BC Healthcare is a lot more shitty then Ontario healthcare (Since it's up to each Province to implement the system via Federal and Provincial funding), but my experiences with healthcare are totally fine. Yes, there are some waiting times, both waiting for procedures, and waiting lines at the ER in hospitals, but even in the US there are huge wait times for many procedures.

 

Furthermore, one of the biggest reasons that the waiting times at the ER are so long is because a lot of people go to the ER for stupid shit, like a cold or whatever. Lots of people use the ER as a doctors office. They should be going to one of the many free healthcare clinics across the country (especially if they live in a bigger city), or (if they have one), they should simply book an appointment with their family doctor.

 

And even if you don't have a family doctor, it's not even that big of an issue, as long as there's a Clinic in your town. I used a health clinic for over 6 years before I got my family doctor. Wait times were pretty short (No more than an hour usually - often as quick as 20 minutes), and for non emergencies, those wait times are perfectly reasonable.

[Centurius]

Meh, nearly 30% of our budget goes into healthcare(second largest post in the budget actually) and it works just fine. The only concern I see is lack of oversight.

[NavyCuda]

Here in BC it's mandatory to pay into MSP.  In most cases the employer pays it for you.

 

As mentioned above, it's the stupid people who go into emergency for unimportant things.  That is the major downfall of public health care.  People think it's free and go to the hospital instead of the clinic because a clinic may charge you a fee.

 

Wait times are terrible, the condition of many hospitals is not great.  Public health care can save lives but it costs more than the value we get out of it.  With no competition, service quality goes into the shitter.

[AlwaysFSX]

15 hours ago, AshleyAshes said:

You Americans and your fear of healthcare.  It's adorable.  

It's not a fear of healthcare, it's a fear of the idiots in charge of it.

 

That and Americans are super duper scared of "socialism" and everything that has a dollar sign on it needs to be capitalized upon. Idiots, frankly.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, NavyCuda said:

Here in BC it's mandatory to pay into MSP.  In most cases the employer pays it for you.

 

As mentioned above, it's the stupid people who go into emergency for unimportant things.  That is the major downfall of public health care.  People think it's free and go to the hospital instead of the clinic because a clinic may charge you a fee.

 

Wait times are terrible, the condition of many hospitals is not great.  Public health care can save lives but it costs more than the value we get out of it.  With no competition, service quality goes into the shitter.

A lot of these issues don't seem to apply to Ontario.

 

I don't know what the "MSP" is, but I don't believe employers are required to pay ANY healthcare costs for their employees.

 

Also, Health Clinics in Ontario are totally free. The only thing they do charge for is:

1. Doctors Notes - this is mostly to encourage you to stay the fuck home when you're sick, and not come into the clinic, getting more people sick with your cold. Some clinics across the country have started billing the EMPLOYER for doctors notes, saying asking for a doctors note for a common cold is a waste of employer resources. Trust your employee.

2. Physicals that are not recommended by a doctor. By this I mean, if I walk into a free Health Clinic and say "I want a full physical, just for fun", they'll charge me like $100. But if I have a doctor say "You need a physical", then they won't charge me.

 

Also, in both cases, these are optional, some clinics do them for free too.

 

As I mentioned before, I used a free Health Clinic for over 6 years, and I went there many times for various things, and never had to pay anything at all, except for the one time I needed a Doctors Note, for when I was sick and missed an Exam at school.

[NavyCuda]

MSP is Medical Service Plan.  If the employer doesn't pay it for you, then you have to pay for it yourself. I seem to remember the rate being around $80/month but don't quote me on that.  I got a $1400 bill from them because my wifes employer didn't pay for me like they were supposed to.  It eventually got cleared up and the employer paid her out so now I'm covered again.

 

So health care in BC isn't free, you're just forced to pay for it one way or another.  However, if you make less than $10,000 in a year and submit your notice of assessments for the period of time they specify, they might waive your fees.  In my case they didn't because my previous year was $72,000.

 

It's a shitty, inefficient system and while I see its merits, I do believe we need private insurance as well.

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, NavyCuda said:

MSP is Medical Service Plan.  If the employer doesn't pay it for you, then you have to pay for it yourself. I seem to remember the rate being around $80/month but don't quote me on that.  I got a $1400 bill from them because my wifes employer didn't pay for me like they were supposed to.  It eventually got cleared up and the employer paid her out so now I'm covered again.

 

So health care in BC isn't free, you're just forced to pay for it one way or another.  However, if you make less than $10,000 in a year and submit your notice of assessments for the period of time they specify, they might waive your fees.  In my case they didn't because my previous year was $72,000.

 

It's a shitty, inefficient system and while I see its merits, I do believe we need private insurance as well.

Well that's terrible. Blame the BC Government for that. I would suggest voting for an MPP that vows to change that system.

 

In Ontario, OHIP is free for any Ontario Resident, and if you have a Healthcare from another Province, you can still generally get free care.

 

Private Healthcare is a thing here in Ontario as well, but it's mostly for:

Vision/Eye care

Dentistry

Prescription drugs

Long term care (Like, having to hire a nurse for Homecare because you can't walk or something)

 

There are also programs for people who don't make a lot of money, that can get free Vision/Dentistry/Prescription drugs, etc, but I really don't know much about the details, since I've never had to use them.

[NavyCuda]

That's one thing I miss from being in the International Union of Operating Engineers, extended medical coverage.  Three near-misses, two that would have caused major injury and deformities, one that could have been fatal.  Employer didn't care, union didn't want to get involved, so I walked.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, NavyCuda said:

That's one thing I miss from being in the International Union of Operating Engineers, extended medical coverage.  Three near-misses, two that would have caused major injury and deformities, one that could have been fatal.  Employer didn't care, union didn't want to get involved, so I walked.

I must say that the private insurance I get as part of my Salary Benefits at work is pretty kickass, so it handles all the extra stuff like Dental really well.

 

I would definitely not want to work with that employer if they didn't care about your health. A healthy employee is a happy employee is a productive employee! They should want to keep you healthy.

[kaiju_wars]

4 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

America is a fucking joke. If you're rich, sure you can get the best healthcare money can buy. If you're poor? Hahahah good luck, hope you're insured.

 

False, I don't know why people say this.  It's the law, even if you do not have insurance or can't afford it, they have to treat you.  (This is for hospitals, keep in mind)

 

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, kaiju_wars said:

False, I don't know why people say this.  It's the law, even if you do not have insurance or can't afford it, they have to treat you.  (This is for hospitals, keep in mind)

 

Yes, but at what cost? They legally have to provide you with care. Then they can dump a huge bill on you if you're uninsured.

 

Yes I know that most Hospitals will settle privately with uninsured patients for much cheaper than the "billed amount", but why should a citizen have to deal with that hassle (Or have to pay anything at all for basic medical care)?

 

My point wasn't that poor people can't get medical care. My point was that if you're uninsured, it might very well bankrupt you or put you in debt for the rest of your life.

 

You should NEVER have to choose between life-long debt and medical care, most especially in a first world nation that likes to claim they're the "Greatest nation on earth" and "The leaders of the free world".

[ThomasD]

From the first paragraph of that linked document

 

"This resident-owned, non-governmental health care financing system..."

 

So, it's funded by tax money, and enforced by the power of the state.  Just don't call it government health care.

 

Yeah sure, whatever.  Because it worked out so well in Massachusetts.

 

Socialism is never wrong and we'll get it right next time!

 

 

[dalekphalm]

4 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

From the first paragraph of that linked document

 

"This resident-owned, non-governmental health care financing system..."

 

So, it's funded by tax money, and enforced by the power of the state.  Just don't call it government health care.

 

Yeah sure, whatever.  Because it worked out so well in Massachusetts.

 

Socialism is never wrong and we'll get it right next time!

 

 

Socialism isn't the problem. "Resident-owned, non-governmental health care" is the problem. Yikes. That'd be like asking ComCast to manage your Healthcare, and hoping it won't bite you in the ass.

 

Socialized Healthcare works very well in other nations - it can be terrible and wasteful, or it can be great and efficient. It's all down to implementation. Just like with Private Healthcare too.

[ThomasD]

2 hours ago, AlwaysFSX said:

It's not a fear of healthcare, it's a fear of the idiots in charge of it.

 

That and Americans are super duper scared of "socialism" and everything that has a dollar sign on it needs to be capitalized upon. Idiots, frankly.

So, when are you moving to the worker's paradise of Venezuela?

[ThomasD]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Socialism isn't the problem. "Resident-owned, non-governmental health care" is the problem. Yikes. That'd be like asking ComCast to manage your Healthcare, and hoping it won't bite you in the ass.

 

Socialized Healthcare works very well in other nations - it can be terrible and wasteful, or it can be great and efficient. It's all down to implementation. Just like with Private Healthcare too.

Socialism very much is the problem. 

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

So, when are you moving to the worker's paradise of Venezuela?

ahahahaahaha No I live in Canada - you know, with Socialized Healthcare. I'm happy here, thanks. I can go to the Doctor anytime I want, for free. I can get medical advice or services with zero cost (Aside from Prescription drugs, which you have to pay for in most places, and my insurance from work covers that, but even if it didn't, the costs are subsidized, and pretty cheap, depending on the exact drugs).

 

1 minute ago, ThomasD said:

Socialism very much is the problem. 

#Disagree - you just saying it's the problem, doesn't make it the problem. Socialism is working out pretty well for me, I'd say.

[ThomasD]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

ahahahaahaha No I live in Canada - you know, with Socialized Healthcare. I'm happy here, thanks. I can go to the Doctor anytime I want, for free. I can get medical advice or services with zero cost (Aside from Prescription drugs, which you have to pay for in most places, and my insurance from work covers that, but even if it didn't, the costs are subsidized, and pretty cheap, depending on the exact drugs).

 

#Disagree - you just saying it's the problem, doesn't make it the problem. Socialism is working out pretty well for me, I'd say.

If socialism is the solution then why doesn't your government provide your food?  Not everyone needs healthcare but nobody lives long without food.  And why don't they pay for the drugs too?  A diabetic can have a doctor visit a day, but without the drugs they'll be dead sooner rather than later.  Never mind that you are forcing other people to meet your personal needs.

 

See, here in the US some people still believe in the concepts of liberty, and limited government.