What speakers for $2,000?

[johnt]

I'd check later regarding what options are available on your unit.

 

I tried a whole bunch of things. Set speakers to small. Set bass output to subwoofer only. A whole bunch of combination. Nothing was able to get my subwoofer to work when using optical. I'm more than happy to try again with any suggestions you might have.

 

I'm glad you kept insisting I look into a receiver instead of a smaller amplifier, though. The sound out of this thing is seriously good.

[Stagea]

I'm glad you kept insisting I look into a receiver instead of a smaller amplifier, though. The sound out of this thing is seriously good.

There are good smaller amps out there, but the powerful ones are on the expensive side (unless you're looking at SR amps, which may not be as clean at low volumes). The commoditization of AV receivers ensure that they offer good bang/buck. Japanese AVRs are like the Toyotas/Hondas of home entertainment; they do all the expected things well at a good price.

[spwath]

Time alignment often does not work when using the multichannel inputs, however. You'd have to do it in your PC.

Pretty sure it is on my receiver at least

[Stagea]

Pretty sure it is on my receiver at least

 

Didn't you get the TX-SR606? Based on its user guide (page 47), the multichannel inputs bypass processing (speaker settings are not applied). I suppose that means that aside from bass management, time alignment, level adjustment and equalization are also bypassed (all fall under Speaker Setup). 

 

I tried a whole bunch of things. Set speakers to small. Set bass output to subwoofer only. A whole bunch of combination. Nothing was able to get my subwoofer to work when using optical. I'm more than happy to try again with any suggestions you might have.

 

 

I'm not sure if this will work, but it may be worth a try:

 

Keep bass output to subwoofer only, with speakers set to small. Make sure you're not running a sampling rate above 96kHz (set it to 48kHz/16 bit for now). 

 

Try a high crossover point first so that you can easily identify the sub as in operation. Once done, try playing something on the PC and hit the straight button on the remote. 

 

If the above works, then you're set. You can then go back to your lower crossover point. The system should be able to bass-manage 96kHz/24 bit, so you can go back to that setting too.

[johnt]

I'm not sure if this will work, but it may be worth a try:

 

Keep bass output to subwoofer only, with speakers set to small. Make sure you're not running a sampling rate above 96kHz (set it to 48kHz/16 bit for now). 

 

Try a high crossover point first so that you can easily identify the sub as in operation. Once done, try playing something on the PC and hit the straight button on the remote. 

 

If the above works, then you're set. You can then go back to your lower crossover point. The system should be able to bass-manage 96kHz/24 bit, so you can go back to that setting too.

 

What's the concern about using 48kHz/16bit? I tried the combination of settings you recommended with 192kHz/24bit and the sub did not work. I can try again with sample rate and bit depth you're recommending.

 

Why would the sub be working with RCA though?

[Stagea]

What's the concern about using 48kHz/16bit? I tried the combination of settings you recommended with 192kHz/24bit and the sub did not work. I can try again with sample rate and bit depth you're recommending.

 

Why would the sub be working with RCA though?

 

Yamaha AVRs typically run in bypass mode when fed 192kHz/24-bit (bass management and DSPs will not work). You'd need 96kHz/24-bit at the most.

 

48kHz/16-bit is a common denominator for even the oldest AVRs, as that is the bit depth and sampling rate of old school Dolby Digital from DVDs after decoding. Even very old DSPs support that, so it is just to eliminate that variable. You should be good even with 96kHz/24-bit... I just gave 48kHz/16-bit as the surest resolution.

 

The 2ch RCA analog inputs get digitized back by an ADC for processing by the DSP. For this series Yamaha, I think that happens at 48kHz/24-bit.

[KaminKevCrew]

For the record, 16 bit, 48khz is just fine for listening, as long as you're using analog volume control (some digital volume controls can cut bits when they lower volume, which is where 24 bit comes in handy.) unless you have bad digital volume control, you won't be able to hear a difference between 48khz and 192...

[johnt]

Yamaha AVRs typically run in bypass mode when fed 192kHz/24-bit (bass management and DSPs will not work). You'd need 96kHz/24-bit at the most.

 

48kHz/16-bit is a common denominator for even the oldest AVRs, as that is the bit depth and sampling rate of old school Dolby Digital from DVDs after decoding. Even very old DSPs support that, so it is just to eliminate that variable. You should be good even with 96kHz/24-bit... I just gave 48kHz/16-bit as the surest resolution.

 

The 2ch RCA analog inputs get digitized back by and ADC for processing by the DSP. For this series Yamaha, I think that happens at 48kHz/24-bit.

 

Damn you know too much. I experimented and turned the sampling rate to 96k, and the bass started blowing off my roof. Perfect. I learn something new everyday.

 

 

For the record, 16 bit, 48khz is just fine for listening, as long as you're using analog volume control (some digital volume controls can cut bits when they lower volume, which is where 24 bit comes in handy.) unless you have bad digital volume control, you won't be able to hear a difference between 48khz and 192...

 

I've heard this, but I figured it doesn't matter as long as I can select it and it worked. I'm actually a little surprised it has an effect on processing the bass output.

 

Finally. Bye bye trusty RCA cable. See you next time.

[Stagea]

Damn you know too much. I experimented and turned the sampling rate to 96k, and the bass started blowing off my roof. Perfect. I learn something new everyday.

 

 

 

I've heard this, but I figured it doesn't matter as long as I can select it and it worked. I'm actually a little surprised it has an effect on processing the bass output.

 

Finally. Bye bye trusty RCA cable. See you next time.

 

Great news! Now you have galvanically isolated your AV Receiver from your PC (aside from the mains connection). You had just cut off a potential avenue for electrical noise intrusion. Both your PC and your AVR will also live happier lives with no chance of a ground loop.

 

Even modern HDMI AVRs often only support digital signal processing upto 96kHz/24-bit (in many cases this may actually be downsampled to 48kHz before processing). Real-time processing adds delay and may cause sync issues if a DSP that is not fast enough is used (and a fast one that can handle higher sampling rates well may be expensive to implement). AVR makers just made sure that the common bit depths and sampling rates are covered. 192kHz/24-bit distributed material is quite rare outside of home audio; most Blurays are 48kHz/24-bit, with some offering 96kHz/24-bit (hence this choice to support 96kHz/24-bit).

 

This also applies to PC Audio. Creative's Sound Blaster sound cards may be set to output at high sampling rates for example, but majority of them have an internal sample rate of 48kHz. This is why some opt to bypass sound card processing and do all the processing in software (this gets special attention for those that play materials like CDs that have 44.1kHz-multiple sampling rates).

 

DSP limitations does not just happen for audio. It is also a big factor in video, depending on the implementation. For video implementations, weaker DSPs tend to use some optimizations (short cuts) which can affect image quality. Aside from this, some DSPs will skip certain processing features if the input resolution and/or frame rate is beyond a certain threshold.

 

Back to the topic: Now that one issue is resolved, it'd just be the eager wait for your new speakers.

[johnt]

Great news! Now you have galvanically isolated your AV Receiver from your PC (aside from the mains connection). You had just cut off a potential avenue for electrical noise intrusion. Both your PC and your AVR will also live happier lives with no chance of a ground loop.

 

Now it'd just be the eager wait for your new speakers.

 

Sweet deal! No interference is always a good thing!!

 

This AVR is a beast. I spent about an hour dusting it out and detailing it yesterday. Overall it was clean except some thick dust and cat hair <_< The remote was another hour all on its own. The volume down button was pressed so hard that the connectors on the remote's PCB were imprinted into the conductive material beneath the plastic buttons. My little tube of conductive paint showed up today (shockingly!) and I applied two coats under the volume buttons. Now it's buttery smooth and very, very sensitive to the touch.

 

About the speakers............ they are coming   I ordered two MTM-210 monsters. I really hope they are bad so I don't feel the urge to upgrade all of my speakers.

 

I should have them by next weekend. I don't have a video camera for a proper unboxing, but I'll do some minor staging and post still photos.

[Stagea]

Sweet deal! No interference is always a good thing!!

 

This AVR is a beast. I spent about an hour dusting it out and detailing it yesterday. Overall it was clean except some thick dust and cat hair <_< The remote was another hour all on its own. The volume down button was pressed so hard that the connectors on the remote's PCB were imprinted into the conductive material beneath the plastic buttons. My little tube of conductive paint showed up today (shockingly!) and I applied two coats under the volume buttons. Now it's buttery smooth and very, very sensitive to the touch.

 

About the speakers............ they are coming   I ordered two MTM-210 monsters. I really hope they are bad so I don't feel the urge to upgrade all of my speakers.

 

I should have them by next weekend. I don't have a video camera for a proper unboxing, but I'll do some minor staging and post still photos.

 

Cool! We look forward to your photos. Great job on the restoration. With the looks of it, that will be a keeper.

 

You can have a different set for your PC and for your Home Theater; that is to have a different "flavor" per system. I have different systems because I appreciate different signatures (though most of them measure pretty close to each other where it matters).

[Whit3Rav3n]

Sweet deal! No interference is always a good thing!!

 

This AVR is a beast. I spent about an hour dusting it out and detailing it yesterday. Overall it was clean except some thick dust and cat hair <_< The remote was another hour all on its own. The volume down button was pressed so hard that the connectors on the remote's PCB were imprinted into the conductive material beneath the plastic buttons. My little tube of conductive paint showed up today (shockingly!) and I applied two coats under the volume buttons. Now it's buttery smooth and very, very sensitive to the touch.

 

About the speakers............ they are coming   I ordered two MTM-210 monsters. I really hope they are bad so I don't feel the urge to upgrade all of my speakers.

 

I should have them by next weekend. I don't have a video camera for a proper unboxing, but I'll do some minor staging and post still photos.

Don´t forget that about 50% of the audio quality depends on the room acoustic. Be sure to set them up symmetrically with enough distance from the walls. Optimally you also should do some acoustic treatment to the room. 

[spwath]

Didn't you get the TX-SR606? Based on its user guide (page 47), the multichannel inputs bypass processing (speaker settings are not applied). I suppose that means that aside from bass management, time alignment, level adjustment and equalization are also bypassed (all fall under Speaker Setup).

I'm not sure if this will work, but it may be worth a try:

Keep bass output to subwoofer only, with speakers set to small. Make sure you're not running a sampling rate above 96kHz (set it to 48kHz/16 bit for now).

Try a high crossover point first so that you can easily identify the sub as in operation. Once done, try playing something on the PC and hit the straight button on the remote.

If the above works, then you're set. You can then go back to your lower crossover point. The system should be able to bass-manage 96kHz/24 bit, so you can go back to that setting too.

You are right.

It only does it using multi channel inputs using stereo mode, not multi channel.

[johnt]

Don´t forget that about 50% of the audio quality depends on the room acoustic. Be sure to set them up symmetrically with enough distance from the walls. Optimally you also should do some acoustic treatment to the room. 

 

I thought placing speakers away from walls was primarily for rear vented speakers. Do sealed speakers need to be placed away from rear walls also?

[spwath]

I thought placing speakers away from walls was primarily for rear vented speakers. Do sealed speakers need to be placed away from rear walls also?

To add on, as I'm curious, do speakers with the port in the front need to be away from walls?

[Stagea]

I thought placing speakers away from walls was primarily for rear vented speakers. Do sealed speakers need to be placed away from rear walls also?

 

Rear vented and dipole speakers get affected the most, as the wall gets to act as a waveguide (causing possible boominess and muddiness).

 

All speakers get some impact from room boundaries, however. For some placement tips:

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/

[Stagea]

To add on, as I'm curious, do speakers with the port in the front need to be away from walls?

 

It can help any speaker to be away from any boundary, if you are after clean output. Many speakers depend on room boundaries to develop low frequency pressure however, so it is a balancing act. Listen, measure and assess would be my recommendation.

[Whit3Rav3n]

I thought placing speakers away from walls was primarily for rear vented speakers. Do sealed speakers need to be placed away from rear walls also?

Yes as stated before, even for closed and front vented speakers the distance to the back wall matters. Bass radiates in all directions with the same spl so almost half the soundwave area is reflected by the rear wall.. Measuring is always the best thing to check for possible problems but not many people have the gear for it. You can consider picking up measuring gear since it is pretty cheap, total cost can be under 100$ for decent equipment for home applications

[Stagea]

Yes as stated before, even for closed and front vented speakers the distance to the back wall matters. Bass radiates in all directions with the same spl so almost half the soundwave area is reflected by the rear wall.. Measuring is always the best thing to check for possible problems but not many people have the gear for it. You can consider picking up measuring gear since it is pretty cheap, total cost can be under 100$ for decent equipment for home applications

 

That being said, his choice of speakers do not have a mid-bass bloat. That makes them quite a bit more forgiving with placement.

[johnt]

Rear vented and dipole speakers get affected the most, as the wall gets to act as a waveguide (causing possible boominess and muddiness).

 

All speakers get some impact from room boundaries, however. For some placement tips:

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/

 

Great reference! I went through the first page earlier today and about half of page 2. I was distracted by the link to Room EQ Wizard. How can they make a software like this for free?? Always blows my mind what people are capable of doing. I tested my laptop's frequency response using the onboard mic... pretty funny. I probably should have calibrated it first.

 

[Stagea]

Great reference! I went through the first page earlier today and about half of page 2. I was distracted by the link to Room EQ Wizard. How can they make a software like this for free?? Always blows my mind what people are capable of doing. I tested my laptop's frequency response using the onboard mic... pretty funny. I probably should have calibrated it first.

I fully agree. REQ is a great tool at the best price. It rendered my standalone Audiocontrol RTA obsolete. A calibration mic for it can also be very inexpensive to get. There are even RTA apps for smartphones and tablets for quick checks (with even cheaper microphones).

Equalizer APO is also free and works great as a compensation tool. WinISD is another great free application (used for modeling speakers).

[johnt]

I fully agree. REQ is a great tool at the best price. It rendered my standalone Audiocontrol RTA obsolete. A calibration mic for it can also be very inexpensive to get. There are even RTA apps for smartphones and tablets for quick checks (with even cheaper microphones).

Equalizer APO is also free and works great as a compensation tool. WinISD is another great free application (used for modeling speakers).

 

I'm in heaven. I love these kinds of programs! I'm glad this came up because I think it's going to provide some discussion when the new speakers show up.

 

I'm shaking my head at this awful, awful laptop. I tried calibrating the mic this morning and the frequency response still looks just as horrible. I should have another mic that I can try.

[Stagea]

I'm in heaven. I love these kinds of programs! I'm glad this came up because I think it's going to provide some discussion when the new speakers show up.

 

I'm shaking my head at this awful, awful laptop. I tried calibrating the mic this morning and the frequency response still looks just as horrible. I should have another mic that I can try.

 

If you don't need the utmost accuracy, even this will do:

http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-iMM-6-Calibrated-Measurement/dp/B00ADR2B84

 

It comes with a calibration profile so that its response is compensated for. I use it on my phone and tablet, but it also works on PCs with an extension.

 

This is what I use on my PC:

http://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-Measurement-Calibrated-Microphone/dp/B00N4Q25R8

 

It is a very cheap investment for something that replaced this:

http://www.amazon.com/AudioControl-SA3055-Real-Analyzer-Meter/dp/B001UDM3LA

[Whit3Rav3n]

I'm in heaven. I love these kinds of programs! I'm glad this came up because I think it's going to provide some discussion when the new speakers show up.

 

I'm shaking my head at this awful, awful laptop. I tried calibrating the mic this morning and the frequency response still looks just as horrible. I should have another mic that I can try.

How do you calibrate your laptop mic? For calibration you usually need a reference. For microphone calibration people usually use a calibrated microphone as reference and match the frequency response of the other mic with the correction file.

[johnt]

How do you calibrate your laptop mic? For calibration you usually need a reference. For microphone calibration people usually use a calibrated microphone as reference and match the frequency response of the other mic with the correction file.

 

REW calls it "Calibrate" on the digital SPL meter, but I think it's really more of an SPL correction. My mistake.