The hell is the difference between the Venom Blackbook 15 and the Clevo P650SE?

[Syntaxvgm]

I just saw that video from Linus
The BB 15 is a Clevo P650SE I could immediatly tell, but different according to them

 

Sorry this is a different machine, The P650SE/SG is a very different machine with a different casing and finish as well as many different internals, not just the RAM, HDD and components but overall, this is not the same machine.

 

 

I understand everybody has their opinion, however the fact is that the supply chain is a very complex line of products and processes that complete one homogeneous manufactured product. Outsourcing is complex, if you would really like to understand the process, then you can start here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer

One point just here even is "example, in 2011 ninety-four percent of all notebooks were made by Taiwanese ODMs"

I recently took this photo myself and in 2014 this stayed pretty much the same, its no secret it will remain for 2015 as well.
https://www.facebook.com/venomperformancecomputers/photos/a.128982803927388.28220.127064824119186/424504787708520/?type=1&theater

It is going to be very hard for me to explain in detail as too why Venom is very different here on a forum, however the end product speaks for itself independently and it comes through in reviews and expert opinions, from people who get to see everything in detail and who are professionals in their field. The way it runs and performs is its own voice in explaining how its different as its the smallest things in the endless amounts of parts and components that add up to one gigantic difference.  After all what counts is performance and numbers do not lie. You can tear down any clamshell notebook today, and nearly all of them come from the same factories that are within a 50km radius of each other. This has no influence on how the machine works as a homogeneous system.
Tolerances of just 1% in things like RAM, soldered chip-sets, panels, hinges, keyboards, material grade in casing and even the paint used on the casing - all for example - everything affects all quality engineered products and this is the difference between a Frankenstein PC, budget PC, pretty PC and a beautiful performance PC. At the end of the day, just like a car which has four doors, four wheels for example, a clam-shell notebook has a screen, keyboard, intel processor. The devil is in the detail. I hope that our customers gain from the hardwork and effort the team at Venom put into every product we make as we strive to be part of every single one of customers individual success in whatever it is that they are creating with their Venom BlackBook.

Not to make a pun, but this sounds like snake oil to me.

 

The lowest end BB 15 @ 2,199 USD comes with-

Processor
Intel® Core™ i7-4710HQ Processor (6M Cache, up to 3.40 GHz)
Memory
8GB DDR3 1866MHz Low Latency High speed impact RAM (expandable to 32GB)
Solid State Drive
120GB M.2 SSD (Up to 550MB/s)
Hard Drive Storage
1TB 7200rpm HDD
Graphics
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970M 3GB GDDR5
Operating System
Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit
Display
15.6″ (2880×1620) – Venom Vision IPS WQHD 3K Anti Glare Matte Display
Audio
High Definition Audio, S/PDIF digital output, Built in microphone, Built in two speakers, SOUND BLASTER® X-FI® MB3, External 5.1CH audio output supported by headphone, microphone, Line-in and S/PDIF j
WebCam
2.0M FHD video camera
Keyboard
Multi languages illuminated full size keyboard with numeric pad
Fingerprint Reader
Yes
Dimensions
385 (W) x 271 (D) x 25 (H) mm
Card Reader
6-in-1 Card reader – MMC / RSMMC – SD / mini SD / SDHC / SDXC
Wireless LAN
Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7265 (2×2, 802.11ac/a/b/g/n) with Bluetooth 4.0
Battery
Polymer battery pack, 60WH – Up to 3.3 Hours battery Life
Weight
2.5kg
Ports
3 x USB 3.0 ports (1 x powered USB port, AC/DC), 1 x eSATA / USB 3.0 combo port, 2 x Mini Display port 1.2, 1 x HDMI output port (with HDCP), 1 x Headphone jack, 1 x Microphone jack, 1 x S/PDIF output
Warranty
1 Year Parts and Labour Warranty

 

Now the P650SE from xotic PC (and presumable very similar price on LPC digital and other place's I'd be like to look at) with the same specs pretty much and a 4k samsung panel and a slightly faster i7-4720HQ costs 1497 USD

 

What the actual fuck is the difference? 

They really seemed to be spinning and beating around the bush when it came to this, I could get no definitive answer. 

I mean the 3k panel is what I'd much prefer to have over a 4k one(and this is why I'm looking at this laptop and the MSI GS60), but at paying 700$ more, I'd rather get a 4k screen or opt for the 1080p one and try to hunt down the 3k panel venom uses. 

 

I don't care about software or the way the OS comes loaded. I can handle that myself and I usually load my own licence anyway. I really didn't want to pay much more than 2k for what I get, and I'd get this laptop if they could come up with one actual thing they do differently build wise, but thus far I see no reason. Enlighten me. What are the exact differences? 

[D2ultima]

No difference. It's just a rebrand that doesn't tell you it's a clevo.

iBuyPower does the same thing

CyberpowerPC does the same thing

OriginPC does the same thing

mySN does the same thing

Eurocom does the same thing

[Syntaxvgm]

No difference. It's just a rebrand that doesn't tell you it's a clevo.

iBuyPower does the same thing

CyberpowerPC does the same thing

OriginPC does the same thing

mySN does the same thing

Eurocom does the same thing

But Venom is the first to claim they source different blah blah yadda yadda as far as I've seen. Why did linus not slam them for the rip off then? I would never buy a Eurocom for example, and would not EVER recommend it to anyone else, so did linus just not do research?

 

I wonder if I could go on notebookreview and see if someone knows what 3k panel they used or what panels would be compatible, I kinda wanna go that route over 4k. 

[D2ultima]

But Venom is the first to claim they source different blah blah yadda yadda as far as I've seen. Why did linus not slam them for the rip off then? I would never buy a Eurocom for example, and would not EVER recommend it to anyone else, so did linus just not do research?

 

I wonder if I could go on notebookreview and see if someone knows what 3k panel they used or what panels would be compatible, I kinda wanna go that route over 4k. 

Linus. Knows. Jack. Shit. About. Notebooks.

 

He used a GS70 and his CPU hit 2.9GHz under load. He thought it "wasn't throttling" because it didn't go below its base clock.

Working mobile CPU:

 

Notebook review would know. Eurocom lists the panel names and you can check on Panelook.com for their dimensions etc by model number. I've been there so often I know my panel by heart: LP173WF2-TPB1

 

So yeah. Linus did no research. He has never heard of Clevo before, and doesn't even know they exist. He only checks ASUS models because they're what he knows exist, and the new MSI models made waves in the community because they have MUX switches and officially support GPU upgrades and stuff. They're still using TDP locked HQ CPUs, but Linus doesn't care. Hell, he doesn't even understand why people would ever overclock in a laptop.

 

Also, yes, I know Eurocom's... track record... with machines. I don't blame you for not wanting one of those. At least they're cheaper than iBuyPower, holy crap. I built a P750ZM on iBuyPower and matched it in specs on XoticPC (through Sager) and Xotic was legit $1000 USD cheaper. A THOUSAND USD. WHERE IS THAT MONEY GOING

[Syntaxvgm]

Linus. Knows. Jack. Shit. About. Notebooks.

 

He used a GS70 and his CPU hit 2.9GHz under load. He thought it "wasn't throttling" because it didn't go below its base clock.

Working mobile CPU:

 

Notebook review would know. Eurocom lists the panel names and you can check on Panelook.com for their dimensions etc by model number. I've been there so often I know my panel by heart: LP173WF2-TPB1

 

So yeah. Linus did no research. He has never heard of Clevo before, and doesn't even know they exist. He only checks ASUS models because they're what he knows exist, and the new MSI models made waves in the community because they have MUX switches and officially support GPU upgrades and stuff. They're still using TDP locked HQ CPUs, but Linus doesn't care. Hell, he doesn't even understand why people would ever overclock in a laptop.

 

Also, yes, I know Eurocom's... track record... with machines. I don't blame you for not wanting one of those. At least they're cheaper than iBuyPower, holy crap. I built a P750ZM on iBuyPower and matched it in specs on XoticPC (through Sager) and Xotic was legit $1000 USD cheaper. A THOUSAND USD. WHERE IS THAT MONEY GOING

He's knows they exist, he's mentioned them on the wan show, but you are right, on several occasions I've noticed that linus has a lack of notebook knowledge. it has traditionally been my specialty, so idk, maybe i expect too much, it is kind of a specialty. 

I think that I know he knows about them is what kinda ticks me off/made me think I'm missing something. 

 

Thanks for the tip on the panel MNs on eurocom, never noticed. 

They list a VV16T029D00, but I couldn't find that,  but I found a VVX16T010D00. Think that may work...but I'll have to check into that

[D2ultima]

He's knows they exist, he's mentioned them on the wan show, but you are right, on several occasions I've noticed that linus has a lack of notebook knowledge. it has traditionally been my specialty, so idk, maybe i expect too much, it is kind of a specialty. 

I think that I know he knows about them is what kinda ticks me off/made me think I'm missing something. 

 

Thanks for the tip on the panel MNs on eurocom, never noticed. 

They list a VV16T029D00, but I couldn't find that,  but I found a VVX16T010D00. Think that may work...but I'll have to check into that

If he knows about Clevos he has never looked at them, because he didn't even notice the Venom was a clevo. He never mentioned them, and he was raving about "Origin PC's desktop CPU notebooks" (P750ZM and P770ZM rebranded) at CEG. Never a mention of Clevo. He just doesn't know anything about them.

 

Also, yes, he has a distinct lack of knowledge about anything notebook. He is one of those who has a desktop, thinks gaming on a notebook is silly, and prefers form over function. You know, one of those people who prefer "macbook pro-like quality, brushed aluminum chassis, thin, light, etc" and then expect it to work good, and if it works good but doesn't satisfy the above (such as a P170SM-A would) he'd hate it.

 

And yeah, laptops are my specialty too. No other way my primary displayed machine would be a P370SM3 in my sig. But sadly the market is going to hell. If you're unaware, HQ CPUs all suck for performance. Everything is now chasing thin and light. Intel isn't selling MQ chips for new models anymore. nVidia's overclock blocking fiasco that resulted in drivers being reinstated for OCing.... but vBIOSes locked for OCing are now pushed for notebooks. So you can OC on the driver, but the vBIOS locks the slider to +/-0 on the core (memory is unaffected). AMD hasn't brought anything new for going onto 4 years now. High gamut screens are being removed from the market, only 15" models get screens above 1080p and they skipped 1440p for 3K and 4K... *sigh*.

 

I don't think I'm going to get a laptop after this machine is unusable anymore. I'm gonna keep it for as long as possible; 980M/1080M SLI and 4910MQ or 4930MX at 4.2GHz+ 24/7 might last me a good long while.

[Syntaxvgm]

If he knows about Clevos he has never looked at them, because he didn't even notice the Venom was a clevo. He never mentioned them, and he was raving about "Origin PC's desktop CPU notebooks" (P750ZM and P770ZM rebranded) at CEG. Never a mention of Clevo. He just doesn't know anything about them.

 

Also, yes, he has a distinct lack of knowledge about anything notebook. He is one of those who has a desktop, thinks gaming on a notebook is silly, and prefers form over function. You know, one of those people who prefer "macbook pro-like quality, brushed aluminum chassis, thin, light, etc" and then expect it to work good, and if it works good but doesn't satisfy the above (such as a P170SM-A would) he'd hate it.

 

And yeah, laptops are my specialty too. No other way my primary displayed machine would be a P370SM3 in my sig. But sadly the market is going to hell. If you're unaware, HQ CPUs all suck for performance. Everything is now chasing thin and light. Intel isn't selling MQ chips for new models anymore. nVidia's overclock blocking fiasco that resulted in drivers being reinstated for OCing.... but vBIOSes locked for OCing are now pushed for notebooks. So you can OC on the driver, but the vBIOS locks the slider to +/-0 on the core (memory is unaffected). AMD hasn't brought anything new for going onto 4 years now. High gamut screens are being removed from the market, only 15" models get screens above 1080p and they skipped 1440p for 3K and 4K... *sigh*.

 

I don't think I'm going to get a laptop after this machine is unusable anymore. I'm gonna keep it for as long as possible; 980M/1080M SLI and 4910MQ or 4930MX at 4.2GHz+ 24/7 might last me a good long while.

"they're overall worldwide sale's aren't large enough to include an exclusive chase, but....finnishing touches"

its like he knows, but doens't. 

And yes, I was MAD AS HELL about that orgin desktop CPU thing when Clevo's have been doing that for years. Can even get 12 core xeons in a socket 2011 clevo. Here orgin slaps their logo on it like alienware used to, suddenly they invented it. 

 

(I know the laptop hardware headache, I hate how half baked MXM is, and I hate these newer CPUs, and I'm gonna cry to have to sell my unlocked sandy laptop)

His love for form like macbooks is an ok thing, just not for performance. It leads to trouble. Macbooks and other ultrabook form factor laptops are great to use....if i was looking for a photoshop/reddit machine or something. Great machines. Not for a hardware enthusiast though. And if he thinks gaming laptops are silly, I can agree to a point. I own a dual GPu laptop I'm gonna sell soon myself. It's so expensive to buy and upgrade a gaming notebook and the performance traditionally is less than comparable. But making laptop video after laptop video I get more and more annoyed with his lack of research on laptops, especially since for the most part, he's generally much more accurate than other tech youtubers. 

I mean, I know I'm about to apply to a few laptop review sites to write myself, and I'm pretty picky about this, but I look to linus to be the guide for the less informed, "new"/young enthusiast in the ever growing tech savvy gaming/geek crowd. Laptops are tricky, and he needs to step it up. And oh god the MSI gpu dock review....

 

And his dekstop gpu testing methodology too (cough luke). 

 

And I don't want to scoff at him. What his channel does makes it successful for a reason. I believe in what he is doing, and I think he's responsible for a lot of new computer enthusiasts taking that plunge from power user to enthusiast. And a jack of all trades is a master of none. So maybe he needs to do some more reading, or reach out and ask for information on these things. I'm happy to help as long as it means the final video gives the viewers something you don't get a lot- a detail, no-bullshit comparison of laptops, removing all of the branding and "snake oil" as he likes to say. 

 

 

fuck it I'll tag him. Probably got 15 million notifications, but can't hurt to add one more 

@LinusTech

 

Oh and linus, I believe I remember you pronouncing it "clev-oh"

bad linus

 

edit lol I keep finding typos. 

[D2ultima]

And I don't want to scoff at him. What his channel does makes it successful for a reason. I believe in what he is doing, and I think he's responsible for a lot of new computer enthusiasts taking that plunge from power user to enthusiast. And a jack of all trades is a master of none. So maybe he needs to do some more reading, or reach out and ask for information on these things. I'm happy to help as long as it means the final video gives the viewers something you don't get a lot- a detail, no-bullshit comparison of laptops, removing all of the branding and "snake oil" as he likes to say. 

 

I have tried. I have tweeted him pictures and benchmarks and a whole set of information about successful laptop overclockers and enthusiasts who use them, and he just laughs at who'd want to buy a "2 inch thick notebook anyway".

 

Also, the reason why I get so annoyed is BECAUSE he has his voice. Just like I got pissed off when Boogie 2988 said to his hundreds of thousands of twitter followers that he "upgraded from a 670 which was just a little better than a current gen console to a 970 which was twice as strong". That instantaneously made tens of thousands of people stupider.

 

There's a huge difference between opinion and fact. HUGE. Someone saying what they feel is just that. What they feel. But when you belt out incorrect information to a few hundred thousand viewers, you spread ignorance and make things worse for everyone. Remember how bad the whole gamergate thing was? A small few people with a VOICE making things terrible for the uninformed public's view of gamers and gaming culture? Yeah. It's like that, only without the rape and death threats. People who don't know come to look for knowledge, and they get incorrect knowledge that could have been fixed by doing a little research. I mean for moocow's sake I have a mobile i7 guide in my signature that I wrote myself and people STILL tell me stupid, incorrect things that are explained and covered in that guide. Even after I point out the guide to them. But those are unknowns on a forum. That's not the same as someone with REAL pull saying it.

 

I want the people whose job it is to do the research and report the facts to actually do the research and report the facts. Jack of all trades and master of none is fine, as long as you're open to new information and/or willing to go looking for that new information. I'm fairly sure only 80% of the information I've listed in all three of my guides is correct... when the people who know better tell me what's up, I fix it. I make things better, and myself better, so I can tell the most correct info to everyone. And it's not even my job. If people never said what was wrong, then that'd be fine. You can't blame the person who doesn't know; only the person who doesn't learn.

 

If you can't tell, tech is pretty close to me. Gaming laptops too, because I simply like being able to go anywhere with them. And you're right, they ARE difficult to maintain and upgrade and use. But they still can be, and people who get good machines often keep them until they're unusable again. There's a guy on the MSI forums who does donationware custom BIOSes. There's Prema, svl7 and johnksss who do modified vBIOSes for all vendors and prema's got unlocked Clevo BIOSes. Unclewebb and his Realtemp and Throttlestop programs which were fully designed for laptops that simply work pretty well with desktops. A big community of testers and people who are real helpful and accepting of others, unlike 90% of all desktop forum environments that I've ever seen. But the minute we ask for help because we're being shafted, people shun us and laugh at us. It pisses me off.

 

SO yeah. That might explain why I am so hard on him. I don't expect him to be perfect. Nobody is. But at least know what you're talking about. If he talked about desktops the way he does about laptops, getting a bunch of stuff wrong and generally not knowing things, he would NEVER have gotten to where he is now.

[Syntaxvgm]

I have tried. I have tweeted him pictures and benchmarks and a whole set of information about successful laptop overclockers and enthusiasts who use them, and he just laughs at who'd want to buy a "2 inch thick notebook anyway".

 

Also, the reason why I get so annoyed is BECAUSE he has his voice. Just like I got pissed off when Boogie 2988 said to his hundreds of thousands of twitter followers that he "upgraded from a 670 which was just a little better than a current gen console to a 970 which was twice as strong". That instantaneously made tens of thousands of people stupider.

 

There's a huge difference between opinion and fact. HUGE. Someone saying what they feel is just that. What they feel. But when you belt out incorrect information to a few hundred thousand viewers, you spread ignorance and make things worse for everyone. Remember how bad the whole gamergate thing was? A small few people with a VOICE making things terrible for the uninformed public's view of gamers and gaming culture? Yeah. It's like that, only without the rape and death threats. People who don't know come to look for knowledge, and they get incorrect knowledge that could have been fixed by doing a little research. I mean for moocow's sake I have a mobile i7 guide in my signature that I wrote myself and people STILL tell me stupid, incorrect things that are explained and covered in that guide. Even after I point out the guide to them. But those are unknowns on a forum. That's not the same as someone with REAL pull saying it.

 

I want the people whose job it is to do the research and report the facts to actually do the research and report the facts. Jack of all trades and master of none is fine, as long as you're open to new information and/or willing to go looking for that new information. I'm fairly sure only 80% of the information I've listed in all three of my guides is correct... when the people who know better tell me what's up, I fix it. I make things better, and myself better, so I can tell the most correct info to everyone. And it's not even my job. If people never said what was wrong, then that'd be fine. You can't blame the person who doesn't know; only the person who doesn't learn.

 

If you can't tell, tech is pretty close to me. Gaming laptops too, because I simply like being able to go anywhere with them. And you're right, they ARE difficult to maintain and upgrade and use. But they still can be, and people who get good machines often keep them until they're unusable again. There's a guy on the MSI forums who does donationware custom BIOSes. There's Prema, svl7 and johnksss who do modified vBIOSes for all vendors and prema's got unlocked Clevo BIOSes. Unclewebb and his Realtemp and Throttlestop programs which were fully designed for laptops that simply work pretty well with desktops. A big community of testers and people who are real helpful and accepting of others, unlike 90% of all desktop forum environments that I've ever seen. But the minute we ask for help because we're being shafted, people shun us and laugh at us. It pisses me off.

 

SO yeah. That might explain why I am so hard on him. I don't expect him to be perfect. Nobody is. But at least know what you're talking about. If he talked about desktops the way he does about laptops, getting a bunch of stuff wrong and generally not knowing things, he would NEVER have gotten to where he is now.

Actually what pisses me off is he actually has a tad bit of pull with the manufacturers, as seen  with razer, or at least some voice. I'm sure some of the things, like the screens, he probably makes good pushes for, but he really needs to know what actual notebook enthusiasts want. 

Idk, how about a video passthough like alienware used to have, a feature that rolled over from their clevo days until recently? I fucking love mine! It's simple shit like that, that everyone cries out for on laptop forums. 

If a slim laptop had that, you could use it as a portable screen for consoles or if tablets had it, they could be a second screen for you laptop.

Little shit like that. 

He never dives into what's inside the system. 

that pisses me off. If he woulda opened it up to verify, then in his video said the BB 15 is a celvo rebrand, I would have been ok with that. 

 

Instead he laughs at laptop enthusiasts wanting to overclock their GPUs. "I wouln't use a 2 inch thick laptop" doesn't speak for all of us linus. And when our options are so limited, we need every bit of power we can get. It shows you don't know anything about the gaming laptop community. 

 

Do you have ANY fucking idea how much MXM gpus cost linus? Generally 700-900$ for the top 2 tiers of GPUs. Now imaging you have a dual GPU laptop. 

How many hours I've spent on reflowing and soldering MXM GPUs to resurrect them from the dead because I simply could not justify shelling out the money for a replacement until a new series was out? 

"Heat can kill laptop GPUs"

We know. Don't act like you know more about laptop GPUs than we do. They can handle it. And we can handle ourselves. In the old days, overclocking was much more dangerous and much more risky than it is now for desktop parts. Should overclocking have been disabled then as well?  

We pay much much more than most desktop users do, treating us like people that are asking too much from manufacturers to not lock us out of options that we have on desktops, and that we had when we bought the product is not too much to ask. NVIDIA did it because AMD's mobile offerings have been lame lately, and NVIDIA has room to safely call their high end MXM GPUs a monopoly  in a way. 

 

It's not too much to ask when some of us had 2 power bricks, 2 fucking power bricks on our systems to allow us more overclocking room. We don't come into this as ignorant tweakers. We came in as enthusiasts that payed to be able to freely push our systems at our own risk, and after paying got the feature taken away from us. 

[Syntaxvgm]

I just got a reply from venom, (I sent this thread) and it's funny as hell

[Syntaxvgm]

Hi Jake

We are a Clevo as much as Apple is a Foxconn book

The supply chain is very complex, I think Linus clearly points out where we are different,

The end result is quite obvious when used, we simply perform a lot better for multiple reasons.

Every notebook uses the same Intel processors, HDMI ports, etc. The differences are very subtle across all notebook computers regardless of brand.

There are main differences, for example. The Skoda Fabia, Volkswagen Polo and Audi A1 are all the same chassis, yet very different car.

Having some common components or design elements do not make you the same. Even the Venom pain finish is different for example as certain paints have different thermal properties.

We stand by our product and the way our product runs, this  is simply the best proof where we are different, we aim for performance only and we are most definitely not the cheapest nor will we ever be.

Our products are designed to be fast, quiet, cool and reliable above all. This means for a 1% increase in performance sometimes a key component may cost 20% more. Most components and transistors we use are different.

It’s these minor differences that make our product different, it can be seen in the final end product. There are endless Frankenstein PC's and notebooks with lots of parts that do not have the right tolerances to create a singular homogenous performance PC (words from our chief designer) When you need high performance, each part is tightly regimented and this means there is little slack, which translates to defined high performance for consistent delivery.

For example our BlackBook 15, sits at 70 degrees Celsius no matter how hard and long you push it for, this is what counts how this translates into performance for the end user.

We realise that the Venom BlackBook is not for everyone, it's for our customers who require the best.

 

James | Global Online Customer Support

Venom Computers  | 73, Peel St, West Melbourne, Vic 3003, Australia

This is it. Linus needs to apologize to his viewers. He can redeem himself by either getting a clevo, and compare it inside and out to the Venom BB, component to component, or wait for me to get one and I'll happily provide any info needed. I guran-fucking-tee it's a clevo motherboard, and everything else for that matter, because unless Venom is making their own board, that's how it is.

Different included memory or hard drive or OS options or fucking paint doesn't make it a different laptop

[D2ultima]

Actually what pisses me off is he actually has a tad bit of pull with the manufacturers, as seen  with razer, or at least some voice. I'm sure some of the things, like the screens, he probably makes good pushes for, but he really needs to know what actual notebook enthusiasts want.

 

He never dives into what's inside the system. 

 

that pisses me off. If he woulda opened it up to verify, then in his video said the BB 15 is a celvo rebrand, I would have been ok with that. 

 

"Heat can kill laptop GPUs"

We know. Don't act like you know more about laptop GPUs than we do. They can handle it. And we can handle ourselves. In the old days, overclocking was much more dangerous and much more risky than it is now for desktop parts. Should overclocking have been disabled then as well?  

 

It's not too much to ask when some of us had 2 power bricks, 2 fucking power bricks on our systems to allow us more overclocking room. We don't come into this as ignorant tweakers. We came in as enthusiasts that payed to be able to freely push our systems at our own risk, and after paying got the feature taken away from us. 

Yup! Exactly. People with a voice need to USE IT. Stop selling the idea that 1" thick notebooks with two video cards is a good idea. Stop calling thin notebooks as the ones people want to overclock. You don't buy a Razer Blade to throw +250MHz on the core and +500MHz on the CPU. You buy a Clevo. Or an old Alienware (let's be honest the new ones suck). You can't even buy an ASUS, because the modified vBIOSes don't work on them, so you're limited to +/-0 on voltage and +135MHz on core. You NEED to buy Clevo/AW/MSI. And older MSIs didn't have a big enough power brick for it either, and the new ones use integrated CPUs, which can't keep clocks for crap.

 

This. He looks at the outside, loves it, calls it nice and sleek which is what HE wants (thin, light, macbookpro-like outward build style) then calls judgement.

 

Lol, he doesn't even need to. Run nVidia Inspector and it shows the vendor of the card. ALL Clevo cards show up as "Schenker" or "Clevo/Kapok". It's not the vBIOS even; it's the card's inbuilt manufacturing data. You can't change it.

 

Actually... they can't. They haven't been able to since mobile kepler. Feel free to grab a 680M/780M/980M (the 880M was broken junk nVidia never bothered to fix) and shove a bedsheet all up in the vents. Watch that card hit 92 degrees and proceed to downclock like its live depends on it. It NEVER hits even close to TJMax of 100C. Good fucking luck destroying one of our CPUs or GPUs with heat. The CPUs do the same thing, at 95-96 degrees. I once had my CPU where I pumped out my thermal paste. I'd hit 90 degrees playing HEARTHSTONE. Know what I did? Overclocked to 3.8GHz and ran a render, to see. I went clear up to 97C and it started to throttle like mad. Went way down to about 3.1GHz and sat between 96 and 97 degrees until I cancelled it. Can't break CPUs or GPUs with heat on a notebook.

 

In fact, I'd LOVE to see him try to break one of them. Please. This is a challenge, Linus. Break a 980M by overclocking. I will personally provide you with a link to a modified 347.52 driver and a modified vBIOS for your notebook. PLEASE make it overheat and die. I want to see this.

 

And yeah. It's not a lot to ask to even check. But people don't check, don't care, don't wanna care. I just like linking them to Mr. Fox's benchmarks from notebooks. His laptops smoke 95% of desktops out there. Here, check this: http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/9463141and screenshot from PC: http://i.imgur.com/NA0tasz.jpg

 

This is it. Linus needs to apologize to his viewers. He can redeem himself by either getting a clevo, and compare it inside and out to the Venom BB, component to component, or wait for me to get one and I'll happily provide any info needed. I guran-fucking-tee it's a clevo motherboard, and everything else for that matter, because unless Venom is making their own board, that's how it is.

Different included memory or hard drive or OS options or fucking paint doesn't make it a different laptop

Yeah. They're lying through their teeth. You don't get to buy barebones without the mobo, and even if you did, you'd have to create the same internals exactly. There's no point. They're just doing marketing hype. It's a clevo it's a clevo. If they hunt GPUs and CPUs and test them for good quality ASIC and good temps/voltage/overclocking, that's fine, but seeing as how that particular model is using a HQ chip (which means it never goes above 57W TDP, and thus is worthless for lots of real heavy loads and over 60fps gaming in CPU-heavy games) that's pointless.

 

lol, I hate when companies lie like that. I think I'm going to be telling people to avoid them. Their prices are high as hell too.

[Syntaxvgm]

Yup! Exactly. People with a voice need to USE IT. Stop selling the idea that 1" thick notebooks with two video cards is a good idea. Stop calling thin notebooks as the ones people want to overclock. You don't buy a Razer Blade to throw +250MHz on the core and +500MHz on the CPU. You buy a Clevo. Or an old Alienware (let's be honest the new ones suck). You can't even buy an ASUS, because the modified vBIOSes don't work on them, so you're limited to +/-0 on voltage and +135MHz on core. You NEED to buy Clevo/AW/MSI. And older MSIs didn't have a big enough power brick for it either, and the new ones use integrated CPUs, which can't keep clocks for crap.

 

This. He looks at the outside, loves it, calls it nice and sleek which is what HE wants (thin, light, macbookpro-like outward build style) then calls judgement.

 

Lol, he doesn't even need to. Run nVidia Inspector and it shows the vendor of the card. ALL Clevo cards show up as "Schenker" or "Clevo/Kapok". It's not the vBIOS even; it's the card's inbuilt manufacturing data. You can't change it.

 

Actually... they can't. They haven't been able to since mobile kepler. Feel free to grab a 680M/780M/980M (the 880M was broken junk nVidia never bothered to fix) and shove a bedsheet all up in the vents. Watch that card hit 92 degrees and proceed to downclock like its live depends on it. It NEVER hits even close to TJMax of 100C. Good fucking luck destroying one of our CPUs or GPUs with heat. The CPUs do the same thing, at 95-96 degrees. I once had my CPU where I pumped out my thermal paste. I'd hit 90 degrees playing HEARTHSTONE. Know what I did? Overclocked to 3.8GHz and ran a render, to see. I went clear up to 97C and it started to throttle like mad. Went way down to about 3.1GHz and sat between 96 and 97 degrees until I cancelled it. Can't break CPUs or GPUs with heat on a notebook.

 

In fact, I'd LOVE to see him try to break one of them. Please. This is a challenge, Linus. Break a 980M by overclocking. I will personally provide you with a link to a modified 347.52 driver and a modified vBIOS for your notebook. PLEASE make it overheat and die. I want to see this.

 

And yeah. It's not a lot to ask to even check. But people don't check, don't care, don't wanna care. I just like linking them to Mr. Fox's benchmarks from notebooks. His laptops smoke 95% of desktops out there. Here, check this: http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/9463141and screenshot from PC: http://i.imgur.com/NA0tasz.jpg

 

Yeah. They're lying through their teeth. You don't get to buy barebones without the mobo, and even if you did, you'd have to create the same internals exactly. There's no point. They're just doing marketing hype. It's a clevo it's a clevo. If they hunt GPUs and CPUs and test them for good quality ASIC and good temps/voltage/overclocking, that's fine, but seeing as how that particular model is using a HQ chip (which means it never goes above 57W TDP, and thus is worthless for lots of real heavy loads and over 60fps gaming in CPU-heavy games) that's pointless.

 

lol, I hate when companies lie like that. I think I'm going to be telling people to avoid them. Their prices are high as hell too.

I need to go to sleep in an hour or two, but I agree about all of this. tomorrow, I'm making a thread calling out linus in the general discussion section. I already know how I'm gonna word it.

[LinusTech]

This is an incredibly long thread with a lot of misinterpretation in it. 

 

I specifically said in my Blackbook video that they aren't using an exclusive chassis. 

 

I specifically said they choose the components that go into it.

 

I specifically said it's very expensive.

 

Any claims the Venom rep is making about different motherboard components are Venom's claims, not mine, so let's not confuse what I'm saying with what Venom is saying.

 

I am well enough aware of Clevo. I was the buyer during a very short stint that NCIX did reselling Eurocom laptops, and it's not exactly a secret who makes those. Why didn't I mention Clevo in the Venom video? Why would I? ODM and OEM manufacturing is not a new thing, nor is it unusual. So it's he same reason I'm not going to mention Yuneec in the Blade 350 drone video that's coming up, and the same reason I don't mention Channel Well when I talk about a Corsair power supply. That information is all out there for the people who care, but for the vast majority it comes down to the product they're buying and the brand that's going to support the product - so in this case it's a Blackbook 15 and the support is coming from Venom, not Clevo.

 

To address another bit - not engaging Turbo Boost is NOT the same as thermal throttling. I use AIDA64 with its all core load test to check for thermal throttling, and I usually check boost speeds for a gaming laptop in a game (so usually only 2-3 threads engaged). No, that's not the same as running Furmark and Linpack, but I don't consider that a realistic scenario for a gaming laptop.

 

As for notebook overclocking, no I don't think it makes a ton of sense. I explained this recently on the WAN show, but there's more to it than GPU temps. I disagree with NVIDIA taking the option away from their users, and I said so, but that doesn't change anything about my thoughts on mobile overclocking. There are more ways for a GPU to die than from not being able to get any ventilation due to a bedsheet being caught in the fan. Processor failure happens over a longer period of time than that.

 

So basically the big complaint here seem to be that I prefer slim designs versus bulky ones. 

 

Sorry. I think the bulky notebook paradigm has run its course, and it looks like the product developers and sales numbers agree with me. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not the One Truth any more than mine is.. and I'm not going to pretend I care about another 10-15% performance from Turbo Boost in a mobile device when it's going to cost me a bunch of extra weight and bulk.

 

Regards,

 

Linus

[D2ultima]

I need to go to sleep in an hour or two, but I agree about all of this. tomorrow, I'm making a thread calling out linus in the general discussion section. I already know how I'm gonna word it.

Welp no need. He's replied here.

[D2ultima]

Any claims the Venom rep is making about different motherboard components are Venom's claims, not mine, so let's not confuse what I'm saying with what Venom is saying.

 

To address another bit - not engaging Turbo Boost is NOT the same as thermal throttling. I use AIDA64 with its all core load test to check for thermal throttling, and I usually check boost speeds for a gaming laptop in a game (so usually only 2-3 threads engaged). 

 

As for notebook overclocking, no I don't think it makes a ton of sense. I explained this recently on the WAN show, but there's more to it than GPU temps. I disagree with NVIDIA taking the option away from their users, and I said so, but that doesn't change anything about my thoughts on mobile overclocking. There are more ways for a GPU to die than from not being able to get any ventilation due to a bedsheet being caught in the fan. Processor failure happens over a longer period of time than that.

While I did not believe you knew what it was, due to the models being out for quite a while all around, I specifically meant earlier that Venom was not honest. Not that you should have made a huge deal about it.

 

When you said you stressed the CPU in the GS70 you said, "it dropped to 2.9GHz but it's good that it didn't throttle". But that was either thermal or TDP throttling, or it'd have kept its boost. I understand that TDP throttling (serious load without overheating) does not equal thermal throttling. But it is a fact that the HQ CPUs are TDP locked and will throttle under very heavy loads. It is something that MQ chips have shown that they can avoid, and thus MQ chips are the better chips to recommend to users who demand CPU workhorses, like machines to do heavy video rendering, etc.

 

The stock vBIOSes allow no voltage adjustments (SOME 980M vBIOSes have +25mV and no negative voltage offsets) and only +135MHz on the stock clocks. I don't understand what danger could happen with these restrictions? It's extremely limited, unlike the mostly free voltage/clock slider options with desktop chips, and (unless you're me, apparently, where it was necessary to not artifact at 120Hz) flashing modified vBIOSes is trace-able and would void warranty anyway. It's also not something a random user without knowledge can/will do, and anywhere with the download has ample warnings about it. So.. no, you need to explain a little more to me where the danger comes from. If I can't adjust voltage and I can barely overclock at stock, what's the real danger to my card, as we've established heat isn't the issue? This is a genuine question.

[LinusTech]

For the CPU throttling thing, power limiting is definitely a thing. Turbo Boost is designed to respond more to instantaneous loads in short bursts rather than to ongoing heavy workloads, so it seems to be working exactly as expected for HQ CPUs. MQ chips might be bettter, but since no one uses them - especially in the compact designs that I personally find more interesting - it's sort of a moot point

 

Regarding GPU overclocking, maybe this is just a "not worth it" thing for me as much as anything else. You're correct in that without raising vcore it is extraordinarily unlikely that a chip would be damaged by an increase in frequency, but you're not correct that flashing a modified vbios is traceable. The amount of diagnostics that an RMAed device undergoes is typically very low. Especially in the case of a bricked GPU, no one is going to go to the effort to read that chip and see what BIOS is on it to determine if the problem was caused by user error. It's less work to just turn off overclocking in the first place.

 

So it comes down to the same thing. I don't personally recommend overclocking mobile components. It's outside of my comfort zone, but I disagree with NVIDIA's decision to remove this choice from their paying customers.

[CartertheCOCguy]

@LinusTech Would you recommend anything over Venom? (iBuyPower, CyberPower, ect. ?) is the price justified? 

[D2ultima]

For the CPU throttling thing, power limiting is definitely a thing. Turbo Boost is designed to respond more to instantaneous loads in short bursts rather than to ongoing heavy workloads, so it seems to be working exactly as expected for HQ CPUs. MQ chips might be bettter, but since no one uses them - especially in the compact designs that I personally find more interesting - it's sort of a moot point

 

Regarding GPU overclocking, maybe this is just a "not worth it" thing for me as much as anything else. You're correct in that without raising vcore it is extraordinarily unlikely that a chip would be damaged by an increase in frequency, but you're not correct that flashing a modified vbios is traceable. The amount of diagnostics that an RMAed device undergoes is typically very low. Especially in the case of a bricked GPU, no one is going to go to the effort to read that chip and see what BIOS is on it to determine if the problem was caused by user error. It's less work to just turn off overclocking in the first place.

 

So it comes down to the same thing. I don't personally recommend overclocking mobile components. It's outside of my comfort zone, but I disagree with NVIDIA's decision to remove this choice from their paying customers.

See the thing about it Linus is that I'm not disagreeing with you DISLIKING things. What is great for me does not need to be great for you. I will NEVER try to force this.

 

The difference however, is that I would rather you make clear opinion from fact. I don't mind if you say a notebook is not in your taste, but they're no denying a solidly built and well-cooled chassis, even if it's in a larger format. It goes a long way if you say something like "I don't like it, but it's a fine machine for those who would have need of it." over just saying you don't like the way hard (and thick) plastic is used in construction etc etc.

 

Also, it's a point I keep making to people. If someone is in the market for heavy CPU workloads, it's better to get a bit thicker machine with a socketed CPU that can be used properly. It doesn't even need to be very thick or large... there's models like the W230SS, a nice 13" with MQ chips and an 860M with decent cooling. There's a marked difference between the HQ and MQ chips (especially in that HQ tends to not listen to BIOS settings set via XTU or unlocked BIOSes) and do what they want, aside from setting clock speed or voltage offsets.

 

I believe you about what goes on during RMAs. I just wish people (tech websites and other places, not just yourself) would understand. You think it's not worth it. A lot of people do. But as I've explained, there's no danger of heating or overvolting the card at stock, and anyone who'd use modified vBIOSes already knows decently well what they're gonna do with it. But still, everyone is all "well if you wanna go set your machines on fire, be my guest". And it just isn't like that.

 

Last thing, the turbo boost for the mobile chips don't just once-off boost. They keep that boost clock all the time under load. If you try a light stress test (especially with an undervolt; Haswell LOVES being undervolted) and just say... leave it on for 30 minutes. A light stream preview of a looping movie might do the trick, for lack of a better test... it's for the most part going to sit at its boost 24/7. That's just how the mobile chips work. I believe desktop chips are supposed to work like that too, but most people either disable boost or just never have it run at boost. The only possible reason I can think of as to why it has such a low base clock is because it sells in machines like generic HPs with terrible cooling systems. I once had the displeasure of trying to help someone use a 4710HQ on a HP machine to export and render projects into Adobe Premiere Pro. His CPU was clocking down pretty low, but his temps were chilling in the 70's, but he was losing performance. So I asked him to try throttlestop on it. Believe me when I say that CPU hit 100 degrees in ONE MINUTE and proceeded to clock down to 0.3GHz and stay there until the computer was restarted. So... that's probably why the base clock is so low. But it should never be running at that.

 

And yes, I do understand that HQ CPUs and integrated GPUs are beneficial to the thinner notebooks because they remove height from the mobo and allow for lower profile coolers, removing thickness. I just don't think that if power on the go is what you need that buying a 1" thick model is a good idea. And I hate that Intel has forced us to accept that as the norm. No new model since somewhere around july-august last year has been allowed to use a MQ socket. Even those bigger machines like the GT80 titan are forever crippled by having a HQ chip in there. And some of them (also like that) are using false advertising, saying that it houses the mobile extreme chip. But there's no MX equivalent in the HQ line.

[LinusTech]

I've covered thicker machines in the past like ASUS' G75X series, and that's exactly what I say in them. "It's thick and really well cooled, which is sweet if you're into that sort of thing".

 

But I don't really go out of my way to cover these types of machines because they're not my cup of tea.

 

I can make a point of trying to do a better job of acknowledging their existence though if you think that's the biggest improvement that needs to be made on my side though.

[D2ultima]

I've covered thicker machines in the past like ASUS' G75X series, and that's exactly what I say in them. "It's thick and really well cooled, which is sweet if you're into that sort of thing".

 

But I don't really go out of my way to cover these types of machines because they're not my cup of tea.

 

I can make a point of trying to do a better job of acknowledging their existence though if you think that's the biggest improvement that needs to be made on my side though.

I'd like that. And a bit more clarification about what the parts really do. Like... this may seem inconsequental to you, but specifying that the max turbo is ONLY for 1 core, and specifying what the 4-core load is can go a LONG way. There are a lot of people very confused about those facts, and get very annoyed when they "can't get their CPU to hold max turbo" not realizing it isn't working properly.

 

Just a little basic laptop information can go a long way. Because believe me when I say the best and brightest of the desktop users on the planet usually don't know a thing about notebook parts.

[LinusTech]

Well I usually refer viewers to our general video about Turbo Boost when we talk about it, because it doesn't work any differently on mobile and desktop really...

[D2ultima]

Well I usually refer viewers to our general video about Turbo Boost when we talk about it, because it doesn't work any differently on mobile and desktop really...

I suppose, but there's also a difference in that desktop chips have a very small turbo (at least mainstream and enthusiast ones); usually only 200MHz. And you can't raise the non-turbo clock multipliers of laptop chips, only lower them, so you have to work with turbo boost essentially. Even though fundamentally the same, they're pretty different between the platforms. I'm unsure if Ivy Bridge non-K desktop chips had a similar overclocking deal... I remember some of them had limited multiplier headroom and that Haswell had removed that, but I've never run across a non-K ivy bridge CPU that I could fiddle with in BIOS or in XTU to be certain.

Here:

 

Also, undervolting apparently goes a pretty long way for these things. Especially at stock, sometimes a solid undervolt can shave off 5-10 degrees off your heat output, (which also means your TDP limits go further too).

[ajbb00]

On 24/2/2015 at 4:30, D2ultima said:

Si sabe acerca de Clevos, nunca los ha mirado, porque ni siquiera se dio cuenta de que Venom era un clevo. Nunca los mencionó, y estaba entusiasmado con los "portátiles con CPU de escritorio de Origin PC" (P750ZM y P770ZM renombrados) en CEG. Nunca una mención de Clevo. Él simplemente no sabe nada acerca de ellos.

 

Además, sí, tiene una clara falta de conocimiento sobre cualquier cuaderno. Es uno de los que tiene una computadora de escritorio, piensa que jugar en una computadora portátil es una tontería y prefiere la forma a la función. Ya sabes, una de esas personas que prefieren "calidad similar a la de un MacBook Pro, chasis de aluminio cepillado, delgado, liviano, etc." y luego esperan que funcione bien, y si funciona bien pero no satisface lo anterior (como un P170SM-A lo odiaría.

 

Y sí, las computadoras portátiles también son mi especialidad. De ninguna otra manera, mi máquina principal mostrada sería una P370SM3 en mi firma. Pero, lamentablemente, el mercado se está yendo al infierno. Si no lo sabe, todas las CPU HQ apestan en rendimiento. Ahora todo está persiguiendo fino y ligero. Intel ya no vende chips MQ para nuevos modelos. El fiasco de bloqueo de overclock de nVidia que resultó en la reinstalación de controladores para OCing.... pero vBIOSes bloqueados para OCing ahora se presionan para portátiles. Entonces puede OC en el controlador, pero vBIOS bloquea el control deslizante en +/-0 en el núcleo (la memoria no se ve afectada). AMD no ha traído nada nuevo desde hace 4 años. Las pantallas de alta gama se están retirando del mercado, solo los modelos de 15" obtienen pantallas por encima de 1080p y se saltaron 1440p para 3K y 4K... *suspiro*.

 

No creo que vaya a comprar una computadora portátil después de que esta máquina ya no se pueda usar. Lo mantendré el mayor tiempo posible; 980M/1080M SLI y 4910MQ o 4930MX a 4,2 GHz+ 24/7 me durarán bastante tiempo.

Hello friend. I have the same processor. How do u get 4,2Ghhz? I can check overclock and put 42 in all cores but don't work

Thanks i hope u comments please