New research to turn salty oceans into a renewable energy source

[AlexGoesHigh]

I know that feel... We'll be facing a power crisis next year according to the government... apparently the private sector didn't expand infrastructure in this aspect...

 

http://online.wsj.com/articles/philippines-power-crisis-the-battle-to-keep-the-lights-on-1410989402

i know exactly that feel, we have problems with power supplies since 2011, on that time the gov blame it on really low water levels on the dam but to this day those persist, i assume the issues is lack of maintenance in the turbines, since that moment the dam has never worked in 100% capacity its been on 80-70% this forced 2 things on us, one we pay a hefty tax if our monthly bill raises certain level and said level was based on the avg 6 months of supply before the law was placed on effect, two despite the tax we get our supply cut for 4 hours a week, they split them in 2 cuts of 2 hours on weekdays, and in my place they cut it as soon as the sun is down which is even more annoying, so i suggest to prepare with lamps and batteries and movies, watching shit on my phone while power is out helps a lot with the boredom

 

fun fact: renewable energy fucked up electricity prices here

ikr, i have cousins living in there since july, a good portion of their rent goes on the electric bill 

[smjpl]

i find it useful to know them, since its not that rare that i meet with energies or dimensions that require those prefixes haha

 

Cool. I never really get to see past nano or peta. Where do you come across them? Did you study physics? I can only really think of quantum physics or astro physics that would consider these ranges. That is probably just my naivety though.

[DigitalHermit]

i know exactly that feel, we have problems with power supplies since 2011, on that time the gov blame it on really low water levels on the dam but to this day those persist, i assume the issues is lack of maintenance in the turbines, since that moment the dam has never worked in 100% capacity its been on 80-70% this forced 2 things on us, one we pay a hefty tax if our monthly bill raises certain level and said level was based on the avg 6 months of supply before the law was placed on effect, two despite the tax we get our supply cut for 4 hours a week, they split them in 2 cuts of 2 hours on weekdays, and in my place they cut it as soon as the sun is down which is even more annoying, so i suggest to prepare with lamps and batteries and movies, watching shit on my phone while power is out helps a lot with the boredom

 

ikr, i have cousins living in there since july, a good portion of their rent goes on the electric bill 

 

I might go grab a 1kW generator instead... But things are looking bright since they've started deploying wind farms up north and down south... maintenance of several dams is also about to reach completion... I'm preparing for a 10-15% increase in the costs...

[LukaP]

Cool. I never really get to see past nano or peta. Where do you come across them? Did you study physics? I can only really think of quantum physics or astro physics that would consider these ranges. That is probably just my naivety though.

youre right, i do study physics and yeah, i mostly deal with astro these days, and sometimes, you see the zettas there. but then you just convert to MPar and thats it but yocto can be seen even if you dont go into quantum iirc

[smjpl]

youre right, i do study physics and yeah, i mostly deal with astro these days, and sometimes, you see the zettas there. but then you just convert to MPar and thats it but yocto can be seen even if you dont go into quantum iirc

 

That is really cool. Yeah unfortunately engineers stick closer to human ranges . We also tend to guess a lot. Approximations all day baby! That really gets the maths guys going. lol. I sound like such a nerd.

 

I rarely get to do any engineering though since I finished my degree. 70% of engineers end up in project management so I jumped ship at the last minute into a conversion MSc in "applied computing" (i.e. cram as much comp science theory into a year as you can and do a thesis). Still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things as that is a lot to cram into one year but enough to get me in the software door anyway.

[LukaP]

That is really cool. Yeah unfortunately engineers stick closer to human ranges . We also tend to guess a lot. Approximations all day baby! That really gets the maths guys going. lol. I sound like such a nerd.

hahaha i feel you. i mean to us physicist pi² = 10 and a year has pi x 10⁷ seconds we approximate alot and the maths and physics people study in the same building haha :'D

I rarely get to do any engineering though since I finished my degree. 70% of engineers end up in project management so I jumped ship at the last minute into a conversion MSc in "applied computing" (i.e. cram as much comp science theory into a year as you can and do a thesis). Still know fuck all in the grand scheme of things as that is a lot to cram into one year but enough to get me in the software door anyway.

yeah the last years of software engineering "haven" are coming i think. for now, its a great course, but in 5 years, im 90% sure it will not have the jobs it has anymore, and people will be like economics... working in mac

[RockiLocky]

Source:

http://rt.com/business/209483-dutch-salt-water-energy/

My thoughts:

I want this to work out... The ocean's potential to produce energy other than tides and wind should be explored...

Do you know that every Energy Source you use will take it away from something. That means if you do that, then we will have bigger problems then energy (electricity)

[Toddwjp]

it probably is there to emphasis the salty. as in, not every seawater is salty enough to do it.

 

would be interesting to se a graph how deltaSaltness affects the produced power.

 

i think its based on the osmosis effect, just a guess though. and a current gets produced on the barrier which they harvest

[LukaP]

i think its based on the osmosis effect, just a guess though. and a current gets produced on the barrier which they harvest

possible, that would be my guess, i was just thinking up of ways this could work without the waters mixing

[ManWithBeard1990]

i think its based on the osmosis effect, just a guess though. and a current gets produced on the barrier which they harvest

That isn't osmosis. It's diffusion.

[Toddwjp]

That isn't osmosis. It's diffusion.

 

osmosis is a special case of diffusion

[ManWithBeard1990]

osmosis is a special case of diffusion

It is, but this isn't osmosis.

 

Osmosis is the diffusion of water through a semipermeable membrane to another volume where the concentration of dissolved substances is higher. That's not what's happening here

 

What's happening here is the following: They have compartments with water, alternately salty and not salty. Between these are ion exchange membranes that either let only positive ions diffuse through, or negative ones. It's a similar type of material like you'd find as a separator inside a battery. These membranes are arranged in such a way that both positive and negative ions can flow to the less salty water, but they have to go in opposite directions to do so, thus creating electricity.

[Bsmith]

im not a 100% sure they mix them, maybe if they just have a small barrier, then the Na and Cl ions create an electric potential with the lack of ions in normal water (maybe somehow) and then drive some sort of current

 

you might be right, it could also be something to do with the repression serie, where metals surpress each other, causing a electrical current/pressure, aka same as 2 metal batteries. since water(H) is also part of that series, just like Na they should be able to generate a electrical current.

 

a bit more explained:

the "spanningsreeks"(pressureseries) is series of metals(and hydrogen) that repress each otehr when brought in a solution(like water) wich creates a electrical current.

example: a lemon/potato battery with a Ni(nickel) and Cu(copper) plate hooked to a device that reads the voltages. how more distance between the metals, how bigger the elecrical current becomes.

 

the series in the way I learned it:

K Ba Ca Na Mg Al Zn Fe Ni Sn Pb H Cu Hg Ag Pt Au

 

as you can see, Na and H(natrium and hydrogen) both belong to this list(all are conductors) and should be able to form a electrical current between each other, the problem however is that so far my not so big knowledge reaches is that H is only in the list because of the fact it is required to get the current flowing, however it might be possible this isn't a requirement. if they found a alternative conductor, wich replaces H then it will be very likely an effective solution to our problems.

 

it however is also possible that they meant the types of salts in fresh and salt water instead of concentrations.

 

OP left out most important information in my opinion, seems like LukaP was right on the barrier.

 

The principle is based on using two specialized filters with salt and fresh water on each side. Positively charged sodium ions seep through one filter, while the other passes negatively charged chlorine ions, thus creating a natural battery.

[LukaP]

 

the series in the way I learned it:

K Ba Ca Na Mg Al Zn Fe Ni Sn Pb H Cu Hg Ag Pt Au

 

 

OP left out most important information in my opinion, seems like LukaP was right on the barrier.

Is this not just a normal RedOx series, with just a few elements written in? this is what i was basing my assumption on yeah

 

Bang i still got it haha

[ManWithBeard1990]

you might be right, it could also be something to do with the repression serie, where metals surpress each other, causing a electrical current/pressure, aka same as 2 metal batteries. since water(H) is also part of that series, just like Na they should be able to generate a electrical current.

 

a bit more explained:

the "spanningsreeks"(pressureseries) is series of metals(and hydrogen) that repress each otehr when brought in a solution(like water) wich creates a electrical current.

example: a lemon/potato battery with a Ni(nickel) and Cu(copper) plate hooked to a device that reads the voltages. how more distance between the metals, how bigger the elecrical current becomes.

 

the series in the way I learned it:

K Ba Ca Na Mg Al Zn Fe Ni Sn Pb H Cu Hg Ag Pt Au

 

as you can see, Na and H(natrium and hydrogen) both belong to this list(all are conductors) and should be able to form a electrical current between each other, the problem however is that so far my not so big knowledge reaches is that H is only in the list because of the fact it is required to get the current flowing, however it might be possible this isn't a requirement. if they found a alternative conductor, wich replaces H then it will be very likely an effective solution to our problems.

 

it however is also possible that they meant the types of salts in fresh and salt water instead of concentrations.

 

OP left out most important information in my opinion, seems like LukaP was right on the barrier.

Well, that's how it'd work in a real battery but you wouldn't want your electrodes to dissolve into the sea. What's actually going on is the natural diffusion of things going from high to low concentration. Constrain that to only let one type of charge move in a particular direction with some barrier, and you get electricity, That's also what happens in human nerve and muscle cells (sodium and only sodium goes through), and there it can generate about 70 mV or membrane potential. In an artificial setting you can easily generate more because the human body limits it (other channels open to let potassium go the other way). Furthermore, you can put multiple cells like this in series to get more volts.

 

Now, on the ends of this series, where you want your electrodes to go, you make these out of metal, right? Then you add a salt of that same metal and a barrier to only let negative ions through. so the metal electrodes dissolve, but the ions of that metal can't pass through the barrier. In the next cycle you switch which cells get salt or non-salt water and the electrode on the other end dissolves and on this end gets plated back on.

 

(all this is made up. It's just how I'd do it and it would work. I have no idea what the Duch are planning)

[Misanthrope]

Nice. Incidentally, if we run out of ocean water we can still use the salty water dripping from the oil tycoon's tears

[Bsmith]

Is this not just a normal RedOx series, with just a few elements written in? this is what i was basing my assumption on yeah

 

Bang i still got it haha

 

ehmm yes it was, altough i didn't know the english name.

 

Well, that's how it'd work in a real battery but you wouldn't want your electrodes to dissolve into the sea. What's actually going on is the natural diffusion of things going from high to low concentration. Constrain that to only let one type of charge move in a particular direction with some barrier, and you get electricity, That's also what happens in human nerve and muscle cells (sodium and only sodium goes through), and there it can generate about 70 mV or membrane potential. In an artificial setting you can easily generate more because the human body limits it (other channels open to let potassium go the other way). Furthermore, you can put multiple cells like this in series to get more volts.

 

Now, on the ends of this series, where you want your electrodes to go, you make these out of metal, right? Then you add a salt of that same metal and a barrier to only let negative ions through. so the metal electrodes dissolve, but the ions of that metal can't pass through the barrier. In the next cycle you switch which cells get salt or non-salt water and the electrode on the other end dissolves and on this end gets plated back on.

 

(all this is made up. It's just how I'd do it and it would work. I have no idea what the Duch are planning)

 

hmm i see, thanks for explaining that it seems like we never went further then the surface of the idea behind it, so far i knew the metals would release outer electrons into the water and those would spread around in such a way the negativ and positive became equal, but im glad i still got more to learn(its addicting)

 

but let's keep it on the fact nobody(not even the dutch) know exactly what they are planning.

altough after reading the link form OP a bit i place my bets on a membrame based conduction, where the used up elements leave as a gas( hydrogengas and natriumgas) wich technically gain back their normal forms after a while, wich would give you a nearly limitless supply of energy on a small amount, altough im pretty sure that isn't the way it works, nature always stops ways of infinite energy.

darn you physics, i love you but hate you just as much at the same time.

[ManWithBeard1990]

ehmm yes it was, altough i didn't know the english name.

 

 

hmm i see, thanks for explaining that it seems like we never went further then the surface of the idea behind it, so far i knew the metals would release outer electrons into the water and those would spread around in such a way the negativ and positive became equal, but im glad i still got more to learn(its addicting)

 

but let's keep it on the fact nobody(not even the dutch) know exactly what they are planning.

altough after reading the link form OP a bit i place my bets on a membrame based conduction, where the used up elements leave as a gas( hydrogengas and natriumgas) wich technically gain back their normal forms after a while, wich would give you a nearly limitless supply of energy on a small amount, altough im pretty sure that isn't the way it works, nature always stops ways of infinite energy.

darn you physics, i love you but hate you just as much at the same time.

Actually that would release hydrogen and chlorine gas, but yes, that's possible too. I guess it depends on whether you want to make hydrogen or electricity.

[Bsmith]

Actually that would release hydrogen and chlorine gas, but yes, that's possible too. I guess it depends on whether you want to make hydrogen or electricity.

 

hehe whoops, typo it seems :rolleyes: i start to wonder if i get my degree this way

[ManWithBeard1990]

hehe whoops, typo it seems :rolleyes: i start to wonder if i get my degree this way

Funny how the Dutch usually make fun of the Belgians for such things

[Nineshadow]

Is it based on diffusion?Maybe osmosis?