AMD Releasing Public Mantle SDK This Year, Encourages Nvidia and Intel to Use it... For Free.

[dragosudeki]

 

 

-snip-

 

Then I'm guessing you're against DX12 then? Where both companies have to again optimize everything, while spending money and probably for minimal boosts as well. I'm talking about moving technologies forward, instead of stopping it because your competitor got to it first.

If Mantle was literally called DX12 or the next OpenGL and was made by a completely different company, I would bet everyone, including Nvidia, would stop being so butt hurt about it. However, we should just accept the facts and move forward.

EDIT:

 

Ubisoft do care about PR, just not PC gamers, most of their cash comes from consoles and console makers, so they will do what creates good PR from those markets, not us PC users.

 

I have been into tech, cars, photography, audio and electronics now for the better part of 33 years.   I have yet to see anything be free,  in the end it always comes with a cost.  Sure AMD will  release mantle free and completely open, but what will the end result be for consumers and what is their drive. No one spends precious R+D cash on a product that will return no results in a time when they desperately need the revenue. 

 

Call me cynical, but I think we should be skeptical of all companies, especially the ones that look the most innocent.

 

We can look at Linux then. Completely free.... Nothing to be cynical about, other than the fact that some programs don't work too well on it. Could even look at recent programming languages being made, such as Apple's Swift. No profit gained from making a language, yet they spent the time and money to set it up.

[monstercameron]

mrmoose

Not only that but you can bet your arse if AMD were in Nvidias position right now and Nvidia where struggling to make a buck the roles would be reversed almost identically, that is AMD would be making everything proprietary and Nvidia would be doing all they can to market the shit out of their wares. 

 

 

I am not sure that might be the case. Intel is far ahead of AMD yet they do alot of opensource and open driver work, unlike nvidia.

[patrickjp93]

mrmoose

I am not sure that might be the case. Intel is far ahead of AMD yet they do alot of opensource and open driver work, unlike nvidia.

You're crazy. Nvidia's open source Unix/BSD drivers far outshine AMD's, and yes they are open source.

[mr moose]

mrmoose

 

I am not sure that might be the case. Intel is far ahead of AMD yet they do alot of opensource and open driver work, unlike nvidia.

 

My point was the opposite.  Is there a company that is struggling that is releasing proprietary products or products locked down to certain systems/software?  Only companies that are succeeding can afford to monopolies the market with proprietary.  Ergo I believe if Nvidia where struggling we would see them doing a lot of the same things that AMD are doing right now, and vice versa, I think if AMD were in a position of success then more of their products could be proprietary.

[Faa]

Then I'm guessing you're against DX12 then? Where both companies have to again optimize everything, while spending money and probably for minimal boosts as well. I'm talking about moving technologies forward, instead of stopping it because your competitor got to it first.

If Mantle was literally called DX12 or the next OpenGL and was made by a completely different company, I would bet everyone, including Nvidia, would stop being so butt hurt about it. However, we should just accept the facts and move forward.

OpenGL is open source & Mantle is not, DirectX is a standard API. Not supporting DirectX doesn't make you a GPU manufacturer.

I'm not against Mantle just because it barely adds any performance means I'm against it? AMD isn't willing to make Mantle open source, that's what I'm against at. DX12 hasn't shown anything yet, seriously I didnt even read a thing about DX12 yet, honestly I'm done hoping for legendary optimizations just give me a CPU with 500% more IPC every year I'll take that anytime over hoping an API trying to make legendary performance improvements while only a few games support it which are mostly console games which I hate. 

[monstercameron]

My point was the opposite.  Is there a company that is struggling that is releasing proprietary products or products locked down to certain systems/software?  Only companies that are succeeding can afford to monopolies the market with proprietary.  Ergo I believe if Nvidia where struggling we would see them doing a lot of the same things that AMD are doing right now, and vice versa, I think if AMD were in a position of success then more of their products could be proprietary.

look at imagination, sure they are cozy with apple but they are the most linux hostile gpu company.

[mr moose]

You're crazy. Nvidia's open source Unix/BSD drivers far outshine AMD's, and yes they are open source.

 

yes that's right, because unix/linux drives for nvidia are so relevant to AMD consumer products and their financial position. Stop injecting irrelevant junk into these threads. 

[mr moose]

look at imagination, sure they are cozy with apple but they are the most linux hostile gpu company.

 

I'm not familiar with imagination, can you explain further.

[monstercameron]

You're crazy. Nvidia's open source Unix/BSD drivers far outshine AMD's, and yes they are open source.

I cant even. NO! man.

AMD's FOSS drivers are so far ahead of the community backed nvidia linux drivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_(software)

read, please!

[AxelRantila]

I was talking about the launch of G-Sync. That is to say, to get the gears rotating. AMD was sitting on the technology for years according to TechPowerUp, and yet they only did something when G-Sync was released? ...

I'm in the same spot; if not for G-Sync, would AMD actually develop their own version

[monstercameron]

I'm not familiar with imagination, can you explain further.

powervr graphics. Imagination is the company the designs the gpus embedded in apple socs[and a few others lk inte]

[dragosudeki]

OpenGL is open source & Mantle is not, DirectX is a standard API. Not supporting DirectX doesn't make you a GPU manufacturer.

I'm not against Mantle just because it barely adds any performance means I'm against it? AMD isn't willing to make Mantle open source, that's what I'm against at. DX12 hasn't shown anything yet, seriously I didnt even read a thing about DX12 yet, honestly I'm done hoping for legendary optimizations just give me a CPU with 500% more IPC every year I'll take that anytime over hoping an API trying to make legendary performance improvements while only a few games support it which are mostly console games which I hate. 

And yet the things that prevent Mantle from being a standard is people not supporting it. Nvidia, developers..... That's what I'm trying to push. If everyone pushed that idea, you would then have that point taken off. DirectX isn't open source either, so if Mantle was actually pushed as a standard then it would be completely fine to you, just like DirectX. You're pushing conflicts against the factors that would make you accept it, instead of pushing for the scenario you wish for. That doesn't help the idea of pushing tech forward. It also shows that you just want to reject it anyway. =/

EDIT: Similar to how people still reject Windows 8.1, even when they did change it so that metro isn't there and everything is fine.

[mr moose]

Why would AMD change anything if the roles were inversed? I don't get it.

 

Never a truer word said.

 

The only difference in this context between Nvidia and apple is that Nvidia have only pursued one legal preceding and it remains to be seen if that is legitimate.  Because I am not too sure if you are aware or not but apple is a rather successful company, sure they had some rocky patches, but what did they do when the going got tough? they joint the x86 crowd and released quicktime then Itunes. 

 

People around here need to stop being naive, there is a lot of egg counting before they hatch.

[mr moose]

powervr graphics. Imagination is the company the designs the gpus embedded in apple socs[and a few others lk inte]

 

I don't know enough about them or their business structure to comment. 

[typographie]

Actions speak louder than words. AMD has always done things that benefited the entire industry instead of just themselves. Mantle, FreeSync and OpenCL are great examples of this. Nvidia on the other hand likes to keep things very much locked down and proprietary even if it's bad for their users or the industry as a whole.

 

Not that this is bad news, but as the underdog with smaller market share, AMD's image is their most valuable asset. You're fooling yourself if you think AMD's marketing department isn't trying to engender that attitude in you as much as they possibly can.

 

Benchmarks suggest Mantle benefits AMD's own CPU division more than anything else. As much as AMD would love you to think they're releasing this out of their own devotion to the open-source philosophy, they are the primary beneficiaries of Mantle achieving the widest possible adoption.

[patrickjp93]

yes that's right, because unix/linux drives for nvidia are so relevant to AMD consumer products and their financial position. Stop injecting irrelevant junk into these threads.

We were discussing open source drivers. Get a life and stop trolling me. Furthermore, they actually are relevant to Nvidia's bottom line. If Nvidia's cards work better, their compute power is higher, and they're more appealing to makers of supercomputers.

[patrickjp93]

I cant even. NO! man.

AMD's FOSS drivers are so far ahead of the community backed nvidia linux drivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_(software)

read, please!

Oh hell no that Wikipedia article is bullocks. Ask anyone else around here with a clue. AMD's drivers for Unix are buggy as Hell and have barely any support from AMD itself for development.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=massive_linux_gpus&num=2

[monstercameron]

Oh hell no that Wikipedia article is bullocks. Ask anyone else around here with a clue. AMD's drivers for Unix are buggy as Hell and have barely any support from AMD itself for development.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=massive_linux_gpus&num=2

ok you weeen! mamamia!

[bogus]

Never a truer word said.

 

The only difference in this context between Nvidia and apple is that Nvidia have only pursued one legal preceding and it remains to be seen if that is legitimate.  Because I am not too sure if you are aware or not but apple is a rather successful company, sure they had some rocky patches, but what did they do when the going got tough? they joint the x86 crowd and released quicktime then Itunes. 

 

People around here need to stop being naive, there is a lot of egg counting before they hatch.

Like I said, NVIDIA is being successful doing what they are doing. Now it doesn't mean AMD would do the same, neither it means AMD would be successful with such model.

If one takes one or two steps back they can see the whole picture, where companys were, what they did, what are doing, and where they are heading to. In all of this major 3 players: NVIDIA, Intel, and AMD the paths are clear. To caim one would take the others path it just makes not much sense because they are too different from eachother. All of them had stepbacks.

Yet all with the same goal: to make money.

What AMD Radeon is doing is to spread GCN as far and wide as they can (lower margins), so they can profit from it later due to high volume. Both in in-house APUs and GPUs, and semi custom designs. NVIDIA seems to be focused on higher margins, and they create more value in their ecosystem so their clients can spend more on them (G-Sync, Shields, even their remote control is only working on NVIDIA hardware, or at least was). Both valid and prooved business models. Now of course this is not as simple as this, I'm just making it simple.

 

[Shahnewaz]

Like I said, NVIDIA is being successful doing what they are doing. Now it doesn't mean AMD would do the same, neither it means AMD would be successful with such model.

If one takes one or two steps back they can see the whole picture, where companys were, what they did, what are doing, and where they are heading to. In all of this major 3 players: NVIDIA, Intel, and AMD the paths are clear. To caim one would take the others path it just makes not much sense because they are too different from eachother. All of them had stepbacks.

Yet all with the same goal: to make money.

What AMD Radeon is doing is to spread GCN as far and wide as they can (lower margins), so they can profit from it later due to high volume. Both in in-house APUs and GPUs, and semi custom designs. NVIDIA seems to be focused on higher margins, and they create more value in their ecosystem so their clients can spend more on them (G-Sync, Shields, even their remote control is only working on NVIDIA hardware, or at least was). Both valid and prooved business models. Now of course this is not as simple as this, I'm just making it simple.

 

 

Well said.

[Faa]

And yet the things that prevent Mantle from being a standard is people not supporting it.

 

Same story for having games on Linux.

 

Nvidia, developers..... That's what I'm trying to push. If everyone pushed that idea, you would then have that point taken off. 

Everyone here is already hoping for Nvidia to support Mantle and I'm not following them, am I? Even if Nvidia announces this a few days later, they'll be needing to find a way to get more performance out of it or that choice wouldn't make any sense. When they do no PR about this that should pretty much sum up Mantle has no use for them. Nvidia will happily accept something that would increase their GPU's performance by a huge amount, sadly Mantle isnt offering this.

 

DirectX isn't open source either, so if Mantle was actually pushed as a standard then it would be completely fine to you, just like DirectX. 

 

Mantle is a year old and we only had 2 games supporting it, not really Nvidia's fault for not supporting it. 

 

That doesn't help the idea of pushing tech forward. 

Begging brands to use Mantle, which isn't even open source so everyone could improve the API, performs pretty much the same as Directx, giving a damn about improving your DX overhead so that you could showoff how much of a difference Mantle makes for some nice PR, isn't pushing tech forward at all. Intel asked AMD to release their source code but they denied, that's what you call holding tech back.

If AMD now decides to release their source code so Nvidia could tweak it and do some massive improvements for their OWN GPU's only then AMD would be fooled which is why they aren't offering the source code. AMD is the only one here holding tech back for her own glory, not Nvidia or Intel. Why isn't AMD improving their DX drivers to a point that they outperform Nvidia in cpu limited scenaro's so we can see Nvidia responding to it and trying to release a driver with better performance?

 

It also shows that you just want to reject it anyway. =/

I want to see performance, not PR bs.

 

EDIT: Similar to how people still reject Windows 8.1, even when they did change it so that metro isn't there and everything is fine.

 

While half of them thought Windows 8 didn't have a desktop.

[monstercameron]

FAA please, mantle has 6 AAA games released in a single year!

BF4

thief

sniper elite v3

plants vs zombies

DAI

civ:be

[Faa]

FAA please, mantle has 6 AAA games released in a single year!

BF4

thief

sniper elite v3

plants vs zombies

DAI

civ:be

Impressive, while 2 of them don't even need a PC to run it. Explain me why BF4 runs quite shit without Mantle? I'm seeing lots of people reporting CPU bottlenecks in DX mode while not having it with Mantle at all, even Intel CPU's like 4670K/4770K's are bottlenecking. Rather than fixing their massive overhead their dx drivers are suffering from, they are abusing it to showoff how great Mantle is. Lets not claim Mantle is AWESOME when their dx drivers are broken. 

[patrickjp93]

FAA please, mantle has 6 AAA games released in a single year!

BF4

thief

sniper elite v3

plants vs zombies

DAI

civ:be

plants vs zombies and CIV count as AAA games/

[Deletive]

I'd love to see Mantle on Intel Igpu's. Oh wait directx 12