FreeSync FAQ Released - pretty disappointing

[Victorious Secret]

If I were a betting man I would bet that g-sync prices will settle and freesync compatible monitors will have a premium so that when all is said and done the average nvidia monitor will cost slightly  more, but to actually use free sync more people will have to upgrade cards.  Thus creating a but ton of threads with people arguing which is better, AMD fanboys will be arguing the price/performance while Nvidia fanboys will be using long term monitor compatibility as there argument.

 

The rest of use will just buy what ever works best in our budget and be happy. 

 

True, sane people often ignore everything that comes out of places like the internet and just get what fits their needs and desires. 

 

But we are here. Clearly something is a little wrong with us.

[Tech_Dreamer]

Ah, Nostalgia...

 

[worldwin]

I dont understand why op is shocked at any of this.
AMD had stated this from the start that only specific currently available cards would support freesync. It was also stated that you would need a new monitor as no current monitor supports DP 1.2a that is required for freesync.

[LAwLz]

You do know that Adaptive Sync, was pitched to VESA by AMD, and is based on Free Sync right? Adaptive Sync is AMD's doing, but a hardware standard none the less.  

Nope that's not what happened.

VESA already had a standard for variable refresh rate in eDP. They were using it for power savings in portable devices. AMD went to VESA and said "hey, this power savings feature in eDP... How about using that in desktop monitors?" and thus Adaptive-Sync was born.

AMD gave VESA the idea to reuse a standard VESA had already made for a different prupose. "FreeSync" is based on what became Adaptive-Sync. Adaptive-Sync is not based on "FreeSync".

[mr moose]

I dont understand why op is shocked at any of this.

AMD had stated this from the start that only specific currently available cards would support freesync. It was also stated that you would need a new monitor as no current monitor supports DP 1.2a that is required for freesync.

 

because he use of the word free surprisingly lead people to think it would be free. or at least incredibly cheap.

[worldwin]

because he use of the word free surprisingly lead people to think it would be free. or at least incredibly cheap.

It is free in the sense that you do not have to pay for additional parts like G-sync.

[mr moose]

It is free in the sense that you do not have to pay for additional parts like G-sync.

but you do, if you don't have an R series card you need a new card, and there are effectively no monitors on the market that support it so you need a new monitor.  So you do have to pay for new gear just like g-sync.

[LAwLz]

It is free in the sense that you do not have to pay for additional parts like G-sync.

Except you most likely will have to do just that. The new scalars will probably not be as cheap as the ones we currently got.

[Notional]

Nope that's not what happened.

VESA already had a standard for variable refresh rate in eDP. They were using it for power savings in portable devices. AMD went to VESA and said "hey, this power savings feature in eDP... How about using that in desktop monitors?" and thus Adaptive-Sync was born.

AMD gave VESA the idea to reuse a standard VESA had already made for a different prupose. "FreeSync" is based on what became Adaptive-Sync. Adaptive-Sync is not based on "FreeSync".

 

The Variable refrash rate in eDP you mention is called Variable Vblank, and is the tech used by BOTH G-sync and Adaptive Sync. All the vblank signal does is tell the monitor not to scan for an image until it gets a vblank end signal. When AMD approached VESA with the power saving feature used as variable refresh rate, it was based on their free sync stuff. Remember that AMD has been very much into the eDP tech, as their APU's use it on notebooks, so that's where the idea for freesync and adaptive sync started.

 

If I were a betting man I would bet that g-sync prices will settle and freesync compatible monitors will have a premium so that when all is said and done the average nvidia monitor will cost slightly  more, but to actually use free sync more people will have to upgrade cards.  Thus creating a but ton of threads with people arguing which is better, AMD fanboys will be arguing the price/performance while Nvidia fanboys will be using long term monitor compatibility as there argument.

 

The rest of use will just buy what ever works best in our budget and be happy. 

 

Doubt it for 2 reasons:

1. G-sync requires a proprietary Nvidia Scaler, so there will be no competition on G-sync scalers, thus a monopoly is ensured for Nvidia for the scalers. Adaptive sync is a standard, so all scaler manufacturers can implement it, and competition will drive prices down.
2. G-sync requires 750MB of monitor ram buffer. This is not the case for Adaptive sync, so it is cheaper to implement in monitors from the get go.

Because of those 2 issues, scale of economics and competition, will drive down prices on adaptive sync much faster than G-sync, from a much lower starting point than G-sync to begin with.

[exyia]

 

AMD have said that they are working with monitor manufacturers. I don't see any reason to distrust them on that. It's good for them if manufacturers don't use G-Sync.

 

and there has still been absolutely ZERO manufacturer announcements on adopting the standard. ZERO product announcements in the works

 

in contrast: http://overlordforum.com/topic/603-nvidia-g-sync/page-5#entry7017

 

Since Nvidia handles all the board design for all the OEMs on the planet, for any and all panels they request, Nvidia is a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I was told yesterday that Nvidia only has so much "bandwidth" (person hours) for GSYNC design and those engineers are working their tails off trying to get all the boards done as soon as possible.

 

 

 

so now you're asking each individual manufacturer to do that on their own

which leads back to the first page:

 

And that's all IF display IC manuf. decided to update for 1.2a, and not just wait for 1.3 (business speak: If company bean counters ask "why would you pay for two updates, when 1.2a rolls into 1.3 anyway?" how do you justify it?)

 

 

 

 

in comparision? G-Sync is just a $100 premium NOW (some would still argue it's still in "early adoption inflation")

 

 

From Anandtech's review:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7582/nvidia-gsync-review

 

The G-Sync board itself features an FPGA and 768MB of DDR3 memory. NVIDIA claims the on-board DRAM isn’t much greater than what you’d typically find on a scaler inside a display. The added DRAM is partially necessary to allow for more bandwidth to memory (additional physical DRAM devices). NVIDIA uses the memory for a number of things, one of which is to store the previous frame so that it can be compared to the incoming frame for overdrive calculations.

 

 

this combined with the fact that FreeSync still has NOT been demonstrated at VARIABLE refresh rates. Only changing from one static refresh rate to another

 

So you're asking for manufacturers to put in that extra effort to be variable. Adaptive Sync came about as an energy saving feature and is....from what we know, very close to being done as it can easily go from one refresh rate to another (again static values, not variable). Now you're asking them to take the extra step and make it dynamic........when nvidia's solution is coming at a $100 price premium TO CONSUMER (who knows what their bottom line cost to implement is)

[worldwin]

but you do, if you don't have an R series card you need a new card, and there are effectively no monitors on the market that support it so you need a new monitor.  So you do have to pay for new gear just like g-sync.

Saying that you need an "R series" card is wrong. Only specific cards (me thinks GCN 1.1) support freesync. Either way whether or not you buy into the refresh monitors you WILL have to get a new monitor (from either sides) unless you had that one Asus monitor that could be modded. You will not have to buy an individual part and install it yourself.

 

Except you most likely will have to do just that. The new scalars will probably not be as cheap as the ones we currently got.

Whether or not you pay more would be up to the manufacturer. If the freesync compatible monitor was sold at a lower price (relative to its competition) no doubt would you increase sales. Mind you the price should drop for both G-sync and Adaptive sync following the s-curve. Early adopters often pay a hefty premium for the latest tech.

[mr moose]

The Variable refrash rate in eDP you mention is called Variable Vblank, and is the tech used by BOTH G-sync and Adaptive Sync. All the vblank signal does is tell the monitor not to scan for an image until it gets a vblank end signal. When AMD approached VESA with the power saving feature used as variable refresh rate, it was based on their free sync stuff. Remember that AMD has been very much into the eDP tech, as their APU's use it on notebooks, so that's where the idea for freesync and adaptive sync started.

 

 

Doubt it for 2 reasons:

1. G-sync requires a proprietary Nvidia Scaler, so there will be no competition on G-sync scalers, thus a monopoly is ensured for Nvidia for the scalers. Adaptive sync is a standard, so all scaler manufacturers can implement it, and competition will drive prices down.
2. G-sync requires 750MB of monitor ram buffer. This is not the case for Adaptive sync, so it is cheaper to implement in monitors from the get go.

Because of those 2 issues, scale of economics and competition, will drive down prices on adaptive sync much faster than G-sync, from a much lower starting point than G-sync to begin with.

 

Double what? an ambiguous figure based on an assumption, or an ambiguous cost implementation based on an assumption?

 

All products drop in price over time, new products always have a premium. Any rational outside of this one basic premise is hearsay.  you'll note I didn't qualify the cost except to say it would be the spawning point of many a fanboy war. 

[worldwin]

and there has still been absolutely ZERO manufacturer announcements on adopting the standard. ZERO product announcements in the works

 

in contrast: http://overlordforum.com/topic/603-nvidia-g-sync/page-5#entry7017

 

 

 

so now you're asking each individual manufacturer to do that on their own

which leads back to the first page:

 

 

 

 

 

in comparision? G-Sync is just a $100 premium NOW (some would still argue it's still in "early adoption inflation")

 

 

From Anandtech's review:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7582/nvidia-gsync-review

 

 

 

this combined with the fact that FreeSync still has NOT been demonstrated at VARIABLE refresh rates. Only changing from one static refresh rate to another

 

So you're asking for manufacturers to put in that extra effort to be variable. Adaptive Sync came about as an energy saving feature and is....from what we know, very close to being done as it can easily go from one refresh rate to another (again static values, not variable). Now you're asking them to take the extra step and make it dynamic........when nvidia's solution is coming at a $100 price premium TO CONSUMER (who knows what their bottom line cost to implement is)

Thats 160 euros not 100. 160 euros for G-sync. Just because no announcements have been made does not mean that none are in production/design etc.

[mr moose]

Saying that you need an "R series" card is wrong. Only specific cards (me thinks GCN 1.1) support freesync. Either way whether or not you buy into the refresh monitors you WILL have to get a new monitor (from either sides) unless you had that one Asus monitor that could be modded. You will not have to buy an individual part and install it yourself.

 

Whether or not you pay more would be up to the manufacturer. If the freesync compatible monitor was sold at a lower price (relative to its competition) no doubt would you increase sales. Mind you the price should drop for both G-sync and Adaptive sync following the s-curve. Early adopters often pay a hefty premium for the latest tech.

 

Check out he link I posted earlier, you need an r series card to use freesync for dynamic gaming.  Any argument about which monitor to buy is moot until FS hits the shelves and we have an actual price to compare.

[Notional]

and there has still been absolutely ZERO manufacturer announcements on adopting the standard. ZERO product announcements in the works

 

in contrast: http://overlordforum.com/topic/603-nvidia-g-sync/page-5#entry7017

 

 

 

so now you're asking each individual manufacturer to do that on their own

which leads back to the first page:

 

 

 

 

 

in comparision? G-Sync is just a $100 premium NOW (some would still argue it's still in "early adoption inflation")

 

 

From Anandtech's review:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7582/nvidia-gsync-review

 

 

 

this combined with the fact that FreeSync still has NOT been demonstrated at VARIABLE refresh rates. Only changing from one static refresh rate to another

 

So you're asking for manufacturers to put in that extra effort to be variable. Adaptive Sync came about as an energy saving feature and is....from what we know, very close to being done as it can easily go from one refresh rate to another (again static values, not variable). Now you're asking them to take the extra step and make it dynamic........when nvidia's solution is coming at a $100 price premium TO CONSUMER (who knows what their bottom line cost to implement is)

1. Do you know any scaler manufacturers, any news about any scalers from anything ever? Scaler manufacturers purely operate on a b2b market. They make specialized scalers for their customers, I doubt you will ever hear anything about them ever.
2. In comparison? 200£ ~338$ 360£ ~609$, so the difference in your own example is about 270$ A simple spec difference in a scaler will not result in such a huge difference, even with a price premium launch price og Adaptive Sync.
3. They showed a functional proof of concept Adaptive Sync monitor at computex. It was a simple scaler firmware upgrade, that could make it use adaptive sync from 40-60hz. The new scalers being made can handle more (the adaptive sync standard supports 9-240hz).
4. Variable Vblank came about as a power savings feature. Adaptive sync came about as a variable framerate tech identical to g-sync, both using variable vblank. Such a simple standard change will definitely cost less than 270$ price premium to the end user.

[worldwin]

Check out he link I posted earlier, you need an r series card to use freesync for dynamic gaming.  Any argument about which monitor to buy is moot until FS hits the shelves and we have an actual price to compare.

"All AMD Radeon™ graphics cards in the AMD Radeon™ HD 7000, HD 8000, R7 or R9 Series will support Project FreeSync for video playback and power-saving purposes. The AMD Radeon™ R9 295X2, 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and R7 260 GPUs additionally feature updated display controllers that will support dynamic refresh rates during gaming."

Your link agrees with me. Have an "R series" card does not give you access to freesync. Having "AMD Radeon™ R9 295X2, 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and R7 260 GPUs" gives you access to freesync.

 

[mr moose]

"All AMD Radeon™ graphics cards in the AMD Radeon™ HD 7000, HD 8000, R7 or R9 Series will support Project FreeSync for video playback and power-saving purposes. The AMD Radeon™ R9 295X2, 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and R7 260 GPUs additionally feature updated display controllers that will support dynamic refresh rates during gaming."

Your link agrees with me. Have an "R series" card does not give you access to freesync. Having "AMD Radeon™ R9 295X2, 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and R7 260 GPUs" gives you access to freesync.

 

read that again. the 7000 and 8000's only support it for video playback NOT gaming.

[jmaster299]

Edit: Mr Moose beat me to it

[Faa]

To clarify; AMD Freesync & Vesa adaptive sync are two different things. Freesync uses a few features of Vesa's AC. Vesa's AC was already there with EDP (laptops) with a dynamic range of 50-60Hz just to save power. Every monitor that ships with DP1.2a will definitely get vesa AC but AMD's freesync is an option and it won't be standard for DP1.2a monitors -> logically it would be only seen on gaming advertised monitors like Asus rog shit.

To have a wide range of dynamic refresh rate, you need a FPGA chip or nvidia calls this is an ASIC this is never going to be standard in a monitor it would be way too expensive. Usually FPGA chips are extremely expensive like 300$, a Gsync module costs 150$ how nvidia achieved to do this is still unknown so AMD has a long R&D way to go. It will probably come out after two or three years, they definitely won't come out in 6-12 months if nvidia needed a year to develop it, now that we're 8 months after the announcement don't expect this thing coming next week out. 

[worldwin]

read that again. the 7000 and 8000's only support it for video playback NOT gaming.

"Check out he link I posted earlier, you need an r series card to use freesync for dynamic gaming.  Any argument about which monitor to buy is moot until FS hits the shelves and we have an actual price to compare."~Mr moose.

 

[jmaster299]

I've been trying to tell people about this for Freesync for a while now. Just because a monitor has a DP 1.2a port on it does not mean the actual panel supports a dynamic refresh rate. The actual panels will require both additional software and hardware to support a dynamic refresh rate for any purpose, and specialized hardware for dynamic refresh while gaming. Making it no different than Nvidia's G-Sync. AMD claiming that it's all done through software is not actually true. If it was all software it wouldn't be limited to R series cards for gaming.

The other issue is AMD is leaving it up to the monitor manufacturers to design and implement the hardware necessary for Freesync to actually work. Nvidia spent the time and the money to develop that hardware in house and supply it to the monitor manufacturers.

[Notional]

I've been trying to tell people about this for Freesync for a while now. Just because a monitor has a DP 1.2a port on it does not mean the actual panel supports a dynamic refresh rate. The actual panels will require both additional software and hardware to support a dynamic refresh rate for any purpose, and specialized hardware for dynamic refresh while gaming. Making it no different than Nvidia's G-Sync. AMD claiming that it's all done through software is not actually true. If it was all software it wouldn't be limited to R series cards for gaming.

The other issue is AMD is leaving it up to the monitor manufacturers to design and implement the hardware necessary for Freesync to actually work. Nvidia spent the time and the money to develop that hardware in house and supply it to the monitor manufacturers.

Ugh so much wrong: 

• All panels support variable dynamic refresh rate, in monitors, the problem is the scaler. In adaptive sync, only the scaler needs to be upgraded to support it. No added 750MB buffer or proprietary scaler chip with over complicated two handshake communication.
• AMD has never claimed Freesync only needed a software upgrade. Source please? AMD pitched the Adaptive Sync standard for VESA to adopt.
• The Gaming part of Free Sync is only supportet fully by GCN 1.1+.
• AMD is working with the scaler manufacturers to implement free sync capable tech, and help them with Adaptive Sync implementation.
• Nvidia developed their scaler with Asus.

[thebennyboy]

There is too much of this in this thread: 

[Misanthrope]

Free-sync, G-Sync, AMD and Nvidia wars, fanboys follow....yeah no thanks.

 

For me it's Fuckall-sync until one side emerges victorious.

[jmaster299]

 

Ugh so much wrong: 

• All panels support variable dynamic refresh rate, in monitors, the problem is the scaler. In adaptive sync, only the scaler needs to be upgraded to support it. No added 750MB buffer or proprietary scaler chip with over complicated two handshake communication.
• AMD has never claimed Freesync only needed a software upgrade. Source please? AMD pitched the Adaptive Sync standard for VESA to adopt.
• The Gaming part of Free Sync is only supportet fully by GCN 1.1+.
• AMD is working with the scaler manufacturers to implement free sync capable tech, and help them with Adaptive Sync implementation.
• Nvidia developed their scaler with Asus.

 

OK, I'll admit to using the wrong term, but by panel I was referring to the rest of the monitor hardware. Special hardware is required beyond just the adaptive-sync standard being added to DP 1.2a.

All the articles that come up in the search are the more honest ones that actually admit that monitors will need special hardware. But AMD's initial announcement specifically bashed G-Sync for being a hardware based solution and claimed they would beat it with their software based Freesync.

Yes AMD is working with monitor manufactures, but they are not actually designing any of the necessary hardware like Nvidia did all in house.

Incorrect, read the quote from ASUS in the original post. Nvidia had a working product before they ever said anything to anyone, including the monitor manufactures.