Why do SandForce SSD controllers have a bad reputation?

[hojnikb]

And one more thing. If TLC is soo good, why is the PRO version using MLC ?

[patrickjp93]

Yeah it gives more life, but thats not my point. If TLC is equal to MLC, then why is 840 getting so many bad blocks then ? And why is samsung setting more space aside for spare area ?

Explain this shit.

"Bad blocks" is bullshit as explained by the tweaktown article. Software can't tell you this accurately at all. 

[hojnikb]

worse, yes, 3x worse? Oh hell no. It's a 12% difference. Just because Samsung can make it cheaply and make it perform drastically better than some nimrod speculators expected doesn't make them liars or TLC flash a bad technology. Why do you think samsung is moving to 4 bits per cell in their enterprise drives?

TLC is not a bad technology. Its just inferior to MLC, as MLC is inferior to SLC.

 And difference is more than 12%, if we were to compare a single cell using MLC and TLC.

[hojnikb]

Why do you think samsung is moving to 4 bits per cell in their enterprise drives?

 

NO its not. Where the hell did you get that idea ?

[patrickjp93]

And one more thing. If TLC is soo good, why is the PRO version using MLC ?

The 840 pro is more than a year older than the EVO and Samsung doesn't release 10 lines of products at once. And the 850 pro won't use MLC either.

[hojnikb]

The 840 pro is more than a year older than the EVO and Samsung doesn't release 10 lines of products at once. And the 850 pro won't use MLC either.

its already out and its using MLC (well its a 3D nand, but still has only 2 bits per cell). check your facts buddy

[patrickjp93]

NO its not. Where the hell did you get that idea ?

To counter sandisk's own move.

http://nvmw.ucsd.edu/2010/documents/Trinh_Cuong.pdf

[hojnikb]

"Bad blocks" is bullshit as explained by the tweaktown article. Software can't tell you this accurately at all. 

Its realyl not. And even if it is, you have no way of knowing it.

[patrickjp93]

its already out and its using MLC (well its a 3D nand, but still has only 2 bits per cell). check your facts buddy

How does this at all conflict with what I said? The 840 Pro has been out more than 3 years! the EVO came out in what, 2013? The 850 Pro moves to stacked NAND, but it's TLC.

[hojnikb]

To counter sandisk's own move.

http://nvmw.ucsd.edu/2010/documents/Trinh_Cuong.pdf

Yeah no.

Sandisk and toshiba did actually do a 4 BIT per cell nand, but stopped quicky afterwards as litograhpy shrunk.

Samsung never did and never intended to do more than TLC.

[hojnikb]

How does this at all conflict with what I said? The 840 Pro has been out more than 3 years! the EVO came out in what, 2013? The 850 Pro moves to stacked NAND, but it's TLC.

its not.

[patrickjp93]

Its realyl not. And even if it is, you have no way of knowing it.

Yes I do, as one who has actually tested NAND flash alongside computer engineering students using state of the art technology. No software can tell you this. You have to look at capacitance, current leakage, and readability, and software going through the Samsung Controller can't tell you this. You have to test the PCB and chips directly.

[patrickjp93]

Yeah no.

Sandisk and toshiba did actually do a 4 BIT per cell nand, but stopped quicky afterwards as litograhpy shrunk.

Samsung never did and never intended to do more than TLC.

Sandisk released enterprise drives with 4LC earlier this year.

[hojnikb]

Samsung 2nd Gen 86Gbit 40nm MLC V-NAND

 

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8216/samsung-ssd-850-pro-128gb-256gb-1tb-review-enter-the-3d-era

 

As i've said. 850pro is MLC.

[hojnikb]

Sandisk released enterprise drives with 4LC earlier this year.

No, they didn't. Thats MLC.

[hojnikb]

Yes I do, as one who has actually tested NAND flash alongside computer engineering students using state of the art technology. No software can tell you this. You have to look at capacitance, current leakage, and readability, and software going through the Samsung Controller can't tell you this. You have to test the PCB and chips directly.

 

It doesn't really matter, what you've got.What matters is, in what condiditon controller thinks the cells are and controller is saying in those reports, that a lot more cells needed to be retired, than with MLC drives.

[patrickjp93]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8216/samsung-ssd-850-pro-128gb-256gb-1tb-review-enter-the-3d-era

 

As i've said. 850pro is MLC.

Nope, anandtech is wrong and out of date, as usual.

http://techreport.com/news/26749/samsung-is-giving-3d-v-nand-a-little-tlc

 

Not to gloat, but how many times must I kick your ass before it's too sore to continue?

[hojnikb]

Nope, anandtech is wrong and out of date, as usual.

http://techreport.com/news/26749/samsung-is-giving-3d-v-nand-a-little-tlc

And what has that  to with 850PRO ?

 

Yeah, Samsung has TLC 3d nand aswell. That doesn't mean they are using it in the PRo.

[hojnikb]

Either way, it looks like the second-gen chips retain the two-bit MLC configuration of their forebears.

 

http://techreport.com/review/26701/samsung-850-pro-solid-state-drive-reviewed

[patrickjp93]

And what has that  to with 850PRO ?

 

Yeah, Samsung has TLC 3d nand aswell. That doesn't mean they are using it in the PRo.

 

http://techreport.com/review/26701/samsung-850-pro-solid-state-drive-reviewed

You didn't read past the first page, did you? The author's not sure based on testing, and given it's V-NAND, a totally new tech, that's not surprising.

 

To reiterate: my boot can keep kicking, but I'm growing concerned for your arse.

 

http://www.kitguru.net/components/memory/anton-shilov/samsung-to-make-tlc-3d-v-nand-flash-memory/

 

It seems I was a bit off and so were you. 850 EVO line here we come.

[hojnikb]

You didn't read past the first page, did you? The author's not sure based on testing, and given it's V-NAND, a totally new tech, that's not surprising.

 

To reiterate: my boot can keep kicking, but I'm growing concerned for your arse.

 

Its MLC, as it would make no sense to use TLC on highend drive.

And endurance rating and write speeds on smallest drives also hints on use of MLC configuration, not TLC (TLC at 128GB would never be able to put out 470MB/s write speeds).

 

So yeah, unless you have a direct quote from samsung, that confirmsTLC, i'm calling bullshit on your statements.

[patrickjp93]

Its MLC, as it would make no sense to use TLC on highend drive.

And endurance rating and write speeds on smallest drives also hints on use of MLC configuration, not TLC (TLC at 128GB would never be able to put out 470MB/s write speeds).

 

So yeah, unless you have a direct quote from samsung, that confirmsTLC, i'm calling bullshit on your statements.

read above, and actually samsung's 845 DC ssd line is all TLC.

 

And what the Hell do you mean TLC can't achieve 470 MB/s writes? Of course it can. It all depends on whether or not you parallelize the writing process.

[hojnikb]

read above, and actually samsung's 845 DC ssd line is all TLC.

 

And what the Hell do you mean TLC can't achieve 470 MB/s writes? Of course it can. It all depends on whether or not you parallelize the writing process.

 

Yeah, but with 128GB, your really don't have many dies to parallelize

 

And yeah, 850PRO is defenetly MLC, as this kinda confirms it

 

http://techreport.com/news/26749/samsung-is-giving-3d-v-nand-a-little-tlc

 

 

During the Q&A session of its SSD Global Summit in Seoul, South Korea, Samsung told us that it plans to make an announcement related to three-bit V-NAND. We don't know when that announcement will come or what it will entail—Samsung's SSD department is notoriously stingy with details—but it's worth noting that Samsung's second-gen V-NAND announcement mentioned "higher-density" drives due later this year. Those would be good candidates for TLC V-NAND.

 

How can 850PRO be TLC, if TLC V-NAND is barely announced...

[hojnikb]

You didn't read past the first page, did you? The author's not sure based on testing, and given it's V-NAND, a totally new tech, that's not surprising.

 

To reiterate: my boot can keep kicking, but I'm growing concerned for your arse.

 

http://www.kitguru.net/components/memory/anton-shilov/samsung-to-make-tlc-3d-v-nand-flash-memory/

 

It seems I was a bit off and so were you. 850 EVO line here we come.

 

I was never off, as my statements were correct the whole time. Its you, that spread bullshit about pretty much everything disscussed in this thread

 

PS:

Still waiting on those quotes for 730

[patrickjp93]

Yeah, but with 128GB, your really don't have many dies to parallelize

 

And yeah, 850PRO is defenetly MLC, as this kinda confirms it

 

http://techreport.com/news/26749/samsung-is-giving-3d-v-nand-a-little-tlc

 

 

How can 850PRO be TLC, if TLC V-NAND is barely announced...

V-Nand isnn't accessed the same way traditional 2-D NAND is. I suspect it's actually SLC-like. I'm betting Samsung is aiming towards a 4TB SSD, which would finally make HDD makers move their asses.