[VideoCardZ] Mantle Support List Leaked With 25+ games, Including GTA V.

[Misanthrope]

The hate is strong on some lol... About openning Mantle, I due time AMD will deliver.

And you're basing that based on....well nothing really. At least we're giving plausible explanations for why this just doesn't make business sense: Their GPUs need the performance advantage a low level API exclusive to their cards can give them, in fact this is also true for Intel which could make their APUs a lot more competent with just a software implementation of mantle enough to make AMD APU's basically irrelevant: Who would wanna get them if the intel counterpart could jump from "crap video" to "basic, entry level gaming" with the added advantage of basically destroying the AMD APU counterparts in performance for everything else?

Seriously we already have just about every single system that isn't for gaming out there relying on the intel APU for graphics, the one area where it SOMETIMES makes sense to get AMD APUs is entry level, very low budget gaming rigs that can at least handle things like WoW, LoL, etc. on a bearable basis.

Full disclaimer since I see you like to throw words like "hate" around: I never owned a single desktop intel processor. I own exactly 1 netbook with an ATOM processor but that's just because my previous Laptop, with an AMD chip btw, was stolen and I had to replace it as cheaply as possible and that was the cheapest at the time.

[bogus]

Before asking me, ask yourself: what makes you say that AMD & all the other parts involved in Mantle (like Johan Andersson and Frostbite) have been lying since Mantle was publicly announced and presented to the lead gaming developers of this great industry? What makes you think Mantle wont fullfill what was set to be done? And most importantly: why would they be lying to the whole gaming community, wich is known to not take kindly when they are being fed with bullcrap?

They could just avoid that subject. Yet they don't.

I support my claims based on what was said and commented by different parts. You are the one basing it on literally nothing. 

What information do you have that supports that any of this "doesn't make business sense"? From what I understand by reading your claims, and correct me if I am wrong, you are saying that AMD GPUs need Mantle performance advantage because...? Catch up?! Is NVIDIA hardware on other level? Is that it? Are you saying that NVIDIA sweeps all the GPU segments, wins all the designs from low-end to high-end?

You are saying that AMD APUs are irrelevant to the point where winning 3 console designs with more then 50 million units sold is completly garbadge?

Cause if that is so, let me tell you that your oppinion is way beyond biased, since it passes the reality and enters some sort of imaginary world - and it will become hard to continue this conversation when it reaches the boundry of common sense and racionality. Plus it's showing that you have not much knowlege on what Mantle actually does, since the current Mantle version doesn't help much the GPU - but helps the CPU when it reaches some sort of bottleneck - either on low-end CPUs, to High-End CPUs.

For the sake of it, I hope I missunderstood you and I will continue...

Well if i've hurted your feelings about the hate thing (it wasn't pointed at you actually), i'm sorry, but it seems like it... but now im realising you are a bit missinformed and i might be getting you wrong. I use Intel for CPUs, I have 2 rigs, one with AMD GPU other with NVIDIA GPU, and a laptop with NVIDIA GPU.
 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2365909/intel-approached-amd-about-access-to-mantle.html

 

AMD told Intel to wait for public release, if that ever happens. 

 

I don't know about you, but you don't tell the company that holds the majority of GPUs on the market to "wait" for your API. You give them your API right away and work with them. Intel making a choice on which API to stick with has consequences for the entire industry, and I don't think AMD is engaging in good business by keeping Mantle so locked off right now when what it actually needs is to be set loose for anyone and everyone to work on.

Perhaps thats why you are not the CEO of a major succefull company, since you are showing signs that you don't know how the real world works.

[Humbug]

They probably save that card for when they are largely more in par with Nvidia in performance if they manage to catch up, I honestly think their promise of opening up mantle by the end of this year is bullshit since I really don't think they'll jump far ahead enough to compete with Maxwell cards

LOL. AMD catch up to what? Nvidia and AMD are already trading blows at various price segments.

[MetroP]

So all of these games are coming out next year ?

[Misanthrope]

LOL. AMD catch up to what? Nvidia and AMD are already trading blows at various price segments.

 

AMD is spending a lot more to get competitive cards priced aggressively but Nvidia has the better chips that just doesn't exploit to the best of what they can do. To me, it's nice that AMD is competing yeah but if the Nvidia chips are neck to neck or ahead with a lot less power and a lot more room to squeeze more performance then having the tech upper hand means that they remain competitive also by having better margins.

[Misanthrope]

 

Before asking me, ask yourself: what makes you say that AMD & all the other parts involved in Mantle (like Johan Andersson and Frostbite) have been lying since Mantle was publicly announced and presented to the lead gaming developers of this great industry? 

 

I never said Mantle doesn't delivers on the tech. I am saying they are not sharing that tech and just talk about how they will eventually, once it's out of the beta, etc. A million fucking excuses but the reality is that they want to keep the API for only their cards to have a performance advantage.

Don't get me wrong when it comes to performance and such AMD does delivers, I know that. But I also know they talk a lot of shit about being more "open" and wanting collaboration but at the end of the day mantle is closed source and exclusive to them. They also say that they will look into Linux for mantle? They don't even have good drivers for Linux yet and they're already talking about a new API?

Oh and another thing don't expect me to ever reply to your nonsense again, I don't care for straw man arguments

[Sonefiler]

The amount of performance you gain using Mantle is all over the place. Games perform better, games perform worse, some don't even change in performance. For something so incredible you'd think it would work all the time.

You've got some bad sources. I gain at least 30% FPS in the Mantle games.

[Lukiose]

I see some games I like on the list so im rather happy.

Not sure what kind of crack all the whiny 'AMD lied Mantle so closed' posters are smoking, Mantle is obviously not finished yet.

Would you release Star Citizen now as a full game? The same goes for Mantle

[bogus]

I never said Mantle doesn't delivers on the tech. I am saying they are not sharing that tech and just talk about how they will eventually, once it's out of the beta, etc. A million fucking excuses but the reality is that they want to keep the API for only their cards to have a performance advantage.

Don't get me wrong when it comes to performance and such AMD does delivers, I know that. But I also know they talk a lot of shit about being more "open" and wanting collaboration but at the end of the day mantle is closed source and exclusive to them. They also say that they will look into Linux for mantle? They don't even have good drivers for Linux yet and they're already talking about a new API?

Oh and another thing don't expect me to ever reply to your nonsense again, I don't care for straw man arguments

They are not sharing cause they don't have the finished product - how on earth is that hard to understand. Name one ISV that releases Betas with the purpous of further development, name just one. A million excuses? Are you delusional? There is just one: Mantle is in Beta. Period.

All the rest, is your reality: unless you have any source of official information that supports such claim. If not that's just your oppinion, and we all know what oppinions are and what they are worth.

Then what did you meant with "catching up" if you say that AMD delivers after all?

I also don't get why you say that AMD: "talks shit" about open standards - what's wrong with you? Why are you so angry?

If you think IP and proprietary technology is the way to go, you have alot of companys who think that way and you should support them. Apple and NVIDIA are fine examples. The tendency though is to develop games that support a whole lot of platforms (current gen consoles are x86, Android using OpenGL)... that's what developers want, the ones who produce content... but if you think it's the opposite, fine by me and everyone else I guess lol. 

Mantle currently is not only exclusive to AMD, it's exclusive to some developers as well - the ones in CLOSED BETA TESTING - wich is common on gaming for example, yet AMD are pricks because of it? I don't see any developers bitching about "not having access to Mantle", while they are excited with this new API. And you are also mad about them making an effort to go to Linux and improve their situation? Isn't that supposed to be a good thing? By your logic since they have bad driver support they should stay away from Linux... I see no sense in that.

LOL again: what is wrong with you? I don't expect you to reply, you avoided alot of things I said, and you start shooting all over the place missing everything... you just made a fool out of yourself. You say I didnt understand what tou said, yet I see more users who read things the same way I did. So maybe you should improve your writting skills if you want to express yourself accuratly.

I surely won't continue this conversation with you. You are rude.

Have a nice day,

[F2K8]

GTA V would be brilliant if it gets mantle support, I can tell that game will use a lot of resources, really hope they manage to get it on there. 

[Misanthrope]

They are not sharing cause they don't have the finished product - how on earth is that hard to understand. Name one ISV that releases Betas with the purpous of further development, name just one. A million excuses? Are you delusional? There is just one: Mantle is in Beta. Period.

Yes, that is their excuse. The implementation is mature enough to be released in 3 games already, it's obviously ready for other hardware vendors to start looking at the code. So I just disagree, sorry but I do not blindly trust AMD with things either which brings me to:

 

All the rest, is your reality: unless you have any source of official information that supports such claim. If not that's just your oppinion, and we all know what oppinions are and what they are worth.

Do you know what burden of proof means? I don't have to prove anything at all, it is AMD that has to prove that they are serious about releasing the Mantle specifications since they are the ones making the (imho unrealistic) claim that they don't just want this tech for themselves. Until it is a standard it's highly insufficient since there's no guarantee that their future products won't suck and be vastly inferior, continue a long standing history of having very bad driver support and virtually unusable Linux drivers, as well as cards that tend to overheat a lot and depend way too heavily on third party non-reference coolers.

So yeah stop asking me to prove a hypothetical won't happen and start messaging AMD asking them to deliver on their promise. I am only saying that a mere promise of eventually being open source with Mantle is not enough for me to seriously consider it as viable and honestly quite a bit suspect: they could have invested all that effort into a better implementation and upgrade of OpenGL instead and every vendor would instantly benefit from a low level API across MULTIPLE PLATFORMS, that's what a company interested in open source would have done instead of just preaching and promising.

 

Then what did you meant with "catching up" if you say that AMD delivers after all?

I feel I explained this already on a previous post but here it is again: they deliver on the price to performance aspect yes. But that doesn't means they have the superior tech: they cards require a lot more power and a lot better cooling solutions to compete vs the Nvidia solutions that are not only way more efficient but continue to improve on that direction.

The same is true for their processors: they are the better option in price to performance in some aspects, mainly multi-threading, but they have not improved on their very inefficient by comparison design vs intel who is delivering a lot more performance where it matters today all the while keeping temperatures on a more reasonable point, that to me means that they have the upper hand in technology as well.

[AxelRantila]

I'm still trying to understand what the Mantle hype is all about and what it can do that improving exsiting API's can't

Let's not forget that so far AMD is only promising to open up Mantle and such but hasn't actually done so

Also another reason for why I'm not that excited about Mantle

[Tacitus]

I'm glad to see this list.

The games that use Mantle already get nice performance bumps, and seeing it catch on can only benefit us as end users.

[bogus]

​Yes, that is their excuse. The implementation is mature enough to be released in 3 games already, it's obviously ready for other hardware vendors to start looking at the code. So I just disagree, sorry but I do not blindly trust AMD with things either which brings me to:

 

How can you make such a statement if you have not even seen the SDK. You are the one saying the implementation is mature, unless you have reverse engineered the .dlls of Mantle on Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Thief and Starswarm demo (the current software who supports Mantle) you have no way to support such claims. You still have people reporting issues. Patchs are still being released with fixes.

That is NOT the sign of a finished product.

And I don't know why hardware vendors should see Mantle in first hand and leave developers in the dark - wich comes to AMD objective: when Mantle goes public IT GOES FOR EVERYONE, not just some. The current developer program is beta testing, improving, giving insights, etc.

It's because of such behavior of fast releases that you get games like Watch Dogs out to the public - unfinished products.

 

 

Do you know what burden of proof means? I don't have to prove anything at all, it is AMD that has to prove that they are serious about releasing the Mantle specifications since they are the ones making the (imho unrealistic) claim that they don't just want this tech for themselves. Until it is a standard it's highly insufficient since there's no guarantee that their future products won't suck and be vastly inferior, continue a long standing history of having very bad driver support and virtually unusable Linux drivers, as well as cards that tend to overheat a lot and depend way too heavily on third party non-reference coolers.

So yeah stop asking me to prove a hypothetical won't happen and start messaging AMD asking them to deliver on their promise. I am only saying that a mere promise of eventually being open source with Mantle is not enough for me to seriously consider it as viable and honestly quite a bit suspect: they could have invested all that effort into a better implementation and upgrade of OpenGL instead and every vendor would instantly benefit from a low level API across MULTIPLE PLATFORMS, that's what a company interested in open source would have done instead of just preaching and promising.

So what you are saying is that your opinnion is worthless, and this conversation is pointless and useless.

But just to point out: you are ignoring the consequences of lying in public, right? If AMD has been saying this for months, since they announced it they setted the posibility of such scenario, they have been lying to developers who are supporting it, to the ones who are considering using it and specially their customers. It would require AMD be extremely dumb to keep delivering such claims and in the end not setting the API open.

That's one thing you learn in Marketing/PR degrees is that it's better to simply not comment, instead of lying. AMD never avoided that subject.

 

 

I feel I explained this already on a previous post but here it is again: they deliver on the price to performance aspect yes. But that doesn't means they have the superior tech: they cards require a lot more power and a lot better cooling solutions to compete vs the Nvidia solutions that are not only way more efficient but continue to improve on that direction.

No one said AMD has superior tech, YOU are the one who seems to be pointing out that AMD Radeon has in fact inferior tech... wich is absolutly ridiculous! For example: NVIDIA needs larger dies compared AMD to reach their performance, is that a sign of inferiority? I don't think so. Both GPU makers release great products and make great engineering features. To say that one is inferior to other is simply wrong, not only because they use different architectures but as well because the differences in the outcome are so small that only a mad man would take them into consideration to point out any superiority.

Anyway Im done with this conversation, I just wanted to clear some things out so people don't get missinformed.

[CreativeTHC]

omg soo awesome! .. I hope they will look in to MMORPG's side a bit, as well.

[AlexGoesHigh]

yes true activision switched teams on call of duty on Mai, now sledghammer is taking cod AW, and teyarch moved to help infinity wards on some other project probably modern warfar 4

that not the current situation with the cod studios sledge is making AW on their own, treyarch is also making their cod on their own (probably bo3) and infinity ward is merging staff with as of yesterday defunct neversoft Activision CEO is calling it a super studio due to the big staff and I'm sure iw is working on ghost 2 not mw4

[Misanthrope]

blah, blah, blah let me BOLD AND UNDERLINE EVERYTHING TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE I'M RIGHT!

Sorry but really unreadable. There was something that half way addressed some of the stuff I actually said but I don't think your shock and awe tactics and inability to move past logical fallacies when arguing is worth replying to. In fact I'm not even sure I'd like to find out more of this kind of malicious misdirections from you in the future

*updates ignore list*

[jmaster299]

If Mantle didn't bring real world benefits why would AMD have 47 developers on board & 22 new games coming out with Mantle support ? The math simply doesn't add up.

AMD has already surpassed DX9 adoption rate with Mantle and is projected to surpass DX11 adoption rate as well.

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2365909/intel-approached-amd-about-access-to-mantle.html

Flip that argument around. If GameWorks was really as bad and closed off as AMD claims it is, why do so many developers choose to use it??? The math simply doesn't add up.

Arkham Origins

AC: 4

AC: Unity

Watch Dogs

Farcry 4

Tom Clancy's: The Division

Star Citizen

Destiny

Titanfall

Daylight

The Crew

The Witcher 3

CoD: Ghost

CoD: Advanced Warfare

Sources:

http://mygaming.co.za/news/hardware/59415-nvidia-announces-gameworks-for-developers.html

http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/tag/nvidia-gameworks

http://tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/nvidia-gameworks-teams-up-with-ubisoft-for-assassins-creed-unity-far-cry-4-tom-clancys-the-division-225331.html

http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/titanfall-nvidia-gameworks

Also, notice how some of those games appear on both lists. I AMD was prevented from optimizing games that use Gameworks, how in the hell would they be able to claim that they will support Mantle? Seems to me that AMD's claims about Gameworks are complete bullshit.

Edit:

Based on knowledge I have that I can't share a source on because it's not public info, and based on the previous games in their franchises all either supporting Gameworks or the Nvidia The Way It's Meant To Be Played program, here are some additional games that will more than likely support Gameworks, but just haven't been advertised as supporting it yet.

Arkham Knight

Borderlands 2 The Presequel

Borderlands 3

 

[Misanthrope]

Not sure what kind of crack all the whiny 'AMD lied Mantle so closed' posters are smoking, Mantle is obviously not finished yet.

Like I said, we only have their word for it when it comes to allow competitor hardware vendors in and honestly, I do not trust them: you're welcome to disagree but opening up the standard right now could only improve it's development. That's the entire idea behind open source: collaboration. If you're going to take an attitude of "yeah you just fuck off until I have the clear upper hand with this tech then you might have the code and catch up" then it's not really helping anybody.

 

Yes AMD wants Mantle to become a new industry standard and widely supported API. No that doesn't means that they will do it in anything but their own terms. I do not blame them for not giving away the farm early, but don't pretend you're all about open source when you're clearly not.

[alamox]

sometimes it's funny to see ppl being wrong, and persist on something they know it's wrong out of pride.

there are more considerations to why Mantle is still in closed beta, and to why it is stupid to publish an SDK for an API that is still massively changing every week, stuff added, removed ,tweaked...how an unfinished product, with known bugs being fixed could be used by competitor to damage it, with a PR compaing...

honestly it's stupid to see ppl still hanging on the excuses of it being propritary, AMD made a public commitement like a 100 times, that Mantle will be an OPEN source for everyone to work on and disect, they even said using Mantle doesnt require any Licence.

it's one of the most retarded argument Nvidia fanboys give, im gonna  believe you a nobody and ignore a multi billion dollar company making a public commitement...at least take their word for it, and if they finish the beta and leave it closed then start bitching and i will be there with you, but now this is just sad.

Mantle is great, deal with it, you want it? ask nvidia to implement it, it's open, and licence free, you dont like it dont use it.

[jmaster299]

sometimes it's funny to see ppl being wrong, and persist on something they know it's wrong out of pride.

there are more considerations to why Mantle is still in closed beta, and to why it is stupid to publish an SDK for an API that is still massively changing every week, stuff added, removed ,tweaked...how an unfinished product, with known bugs being fixed could be used by competitor to damage it, with a PR compaing...

honestly it's stupid to see ppl still hanging on the excuses of it being propritary, AMD made a public commitement like a 100 times, that Mantle will be an OPEN source for everyone to work on and disect, they even said using Mantle doesnt require any Licence.

it's one of the most retarded argument Nvidia fanboys give, im gonna  believe you a nobody and ignore a multi billion dollar company making a public commitement...at least take their word for it, and if they finish the beta and leave it closed then start bitching and i will be there with you, but now this is just sad.

Mantle is great, deal with it, you want it? ask nvidia to implement it, it's open, and licence free, you dont like it dont use it.

It's not great because it does not work as advertised, and Nvidia can't implement it because it's still closed. I mean, do you seriously not understand how conflicting your statement is. You tell people not complain about it being closed because it's not finished, but in the same breath you tell them to ask Nvidia to implement it.

Mantle does not exist to improve performance across the board for all games and all players. It's there to make the use of the CPU more efficient, but for anyone with a good CPU that benefit becomes zero because they were never being held back in the first place. I'm not saying Mantle is pointless, it's just not the great and game changing feature that the red kool aid drinkers think it is.

[Misanthrope]

sometimes it's funny to see ppl being wrong, and persist on something they know it's wrong out of pride.

there are more considerations to why Mantle is still in closed beta, and to why it is stupid to publish an SDK for an API that is still massively changing every week, stuff added, removed ,tweaked...how an unfinished product, with known bugs being fixed could be used by competitor to damage it, with a PR compaing...

honestly it's stupid to see ppl still hanging on the excuses of it being propritary, AMD made a public commitement like a 100 times, that Mantle will be an OPEN source for everyone to work on and disect, they even said using Mantle doesnt require any Licence.

it's one of the most retarded argument Nvidia fanboys give, im gonna  believe you a nobody and ignore a multi billion dollar company making a public commitement...at least take their word for it, and if they finish the beta and leave it closed then start bitching and i will be there with you, but now this is just sad.

Mantle is great, deal with it, you want it? ask nvidia to implement it, it's open, and licence free, you dont like it dont use it.

 

It's funnier how people talk about open source when they have no idea what they're talking about. Open source is about cooperative development so yes that means getting down and dirty with stuff being tweaked, added, removed, etc. What AMD is doing is their own thing, it's ok that they're doing it like that if it suits them. But it is most certainly not open source development. They are actually misleading people like you who are actually not familiar with how open source development works and think just giving the source to a closed source development piece of software is the same as open source. It is most certainly NOT. This is basically the John Carmack method of developing where he does everything himself and then puts it out there for others to use since he knew others would still come to his company for help and extra development even if the actual source was free.

He was however not an open source developer, neither is AMD with this model. Open source means cooperating openly with others from the ground up to actually benefit from the start since others might have ideas that could improve it but are fundamentally needed to come in from the start. What AMD wants it's to others just optimize later but basically play by their rules, a notch above Direct X and being at the whim of Microsoft's (lack of) interest on it, but certainly not an open source developed API like OpenGL

[alamox]

It's not great because it does not work as advertised, and Nvidia can't implement it because it's still closed. I mean, do you seriously not understand how conflicting your statement is. You tell people not complain about it being closed because it's not finished, but in the same breath you tell them to ask Nvidia to implement it.

Mantle does not exist to improve performance across the board for all games and all players. It's there to make the use of the CPU more efficient, but for anyone with a good CPU that benefit becomes zero because they were never being held back in the first place. I'm not saying Mantle is pointless, it's just not the great and game changing feature that the red kool aid drinkers think it is.

 

Nvidia can work on it when it's released, and patch the games that are already released, Nvidia can find a project and apply to the beta for Mantle, they will probably get it, as long as they have a project that will help AMD  evolve and fix Mantle before the launch, not just ask for a peak like Intel did.

and yes games that are coded around DX, all that Mantle can give them is better cpu usage, and resources management and stuff like that, dont forget the  games evlove, if now your 1000$ cpu run through games and dont see that much of a difference, in couple years that same cpu will benefit from Mantle in future games as much as an i3 does right now.

and if the game is primarily developed for Mantle rather than DX limit ceiling, games overall would be better on many aspects.not just fps for low cpu.

[AxelRantila]

I don't forsee DirectX disappearing anytime soon. I'll wait and see what happens with DirectX12 before deciding on anything

[Misanthrope]

Mantle does not exist to improve performance across the board for all games and all players. It's there to make the use of the CPU more efficient, but for anyone with a good CPU that benefit becomes zero because they were never being held back in the first place

I just like to point that while you're absolutely right about this right now, developers should start getting serious about multi threading performance and actually using the CPU more because once they do, they can actually gain a large advantage out of using mantle and improve games in other, much needed ways like better AI and other sort of tasks like that.