Linus is wrong about Microsoft Recall.

[Slipping Jimmy]

On Wan show. He said it's better for security, to be a web app, instead of it being run locally.

How is a web app better then it being run locally?

[Eigenvektor]

A web app running in the browser generally has much less permissions than a local app. For example it can't search through your files.

[MiszS]

1 minute ago, Eigenvektor said:

For example it can't search through your files.

Like microsoft doesn't already do that

[Eigenvektor]

5 minutes ago, MiszS said:

Like microsoft doesn't already do that

Pretty sure there would be a big outcry from all kinds of security experts if they noticed Windows sending file contents anywhere. Obviously file search will search through local files, but that stuff stays on your local machine.

 

Whether Recall in a browser is that much better than Recall as a local app, who knows. The browser sandbox should definitely limit its capabilities, i.e. it shouldn't be able to monitor key presses during logins (outside the browser window) (obviously it could still screenshot unmasked passwords)

[Tetras]

59 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Pretty sure there would be a big outcry from all kinds of security experts if they noticed Windows sending file contents anywhere. Obviously file search will search through local files, but that stuff stays on your local machine.

Here are two examples:

Defender already sends your files and it is difficult to turn this feature off and get it stay off.

Microsoft are making OneDrive automatically enabled on future installs and that will send all your documents to their servers unless you opt-out.

[Eigenvektor]

1 hour ago, Tetras said:

Here are two examples:

Defender already sends your files and it is difficult to turn this feature off and get it stay off.

Microsoft are making OneDrive automatically enabled on future installs and that will send all your documents to their servers unless you opt-out.

You are right, of course.

 

Though Defender should really only upload files that are "suspicious", while also asking for confirmation when a file might contain personal information. Files synchronized through OneDrive should be encrypted at rest. Of course that doesn't really excuse enabling the feature by default without consent.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

The browser sandbox should definitely limit its capabilities, i.e. it shouldn't be able to monitor key presses during logins (outside the browser window) (obviously it could still screenshot unmasked passwords)

That would defeat its purpose. 

The entire point is that it has access to everything. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Files synchronized through OneDrive should be encrypted at rest.

That doesn't really mean anything in this case. Even if they are encrypted at rest, they can just be decrypted at any time by Microsoft. 

[wasab]

3 hours ago, Tetras said:

Here are two examples:

Defender already sends your files and it is difficult to turn this feature off and get it stay off.

Microsoft are making OneDrive automatically enabled on future installs and that will send all your documents to their servers unless you opt-out.

Yeah, very good point. I had to make sure I disable this every time, in addition to all the Cortana and ai they are now pushing. 

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

That would defeat its purpose. 

The entire point is that it has access to everything. 

No it isn't, that is categorically not true and not what Windows Recall is. It has always been and and has only ever been "Snapshots of what is on your screen". It never had access to files, keyboard activity, network activity access etc.

 

The whole purpose of Recall was to go back and see what you have seen and to be able to search through what was on screen, so you can put in a key word search for something you think you have seen and it would then show you all the times that was present visibly.

 

"Paddling pool on Amazon" - If you couldn't find the product page again and the exact product name.

 

Quote

One of the new experiences exclusive to Copilot+ PCs is Recall, a new way to instantly find something you’ve previously seen on your PC. To create an explorable visual timeline, Recall periodically takes a snapshot of what appears on your screen. These images are encrypted, stored and analyzed locally, using on-device AI capabilities to understand their context. When logged into your Copilot+ PC, you can easily retrace your steps visually using Recall to find things from apps, websites, images and documents that you’ve seen, operating like your own virtual and completely private “photographic memory.”

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/06/07/update-on-the-recall-preview-feature-for-copilot-pcs/

 

Recall only has access to image data that is on your screen with the ability to mask that based on things like App you don't want it to be able to see if it is the active window (maybe even on the screen at all).

 

What Recall is and what people claimed and reported Recall as were different things. The security behind it was indeed weak and that was very valid and fair criticism, that has been improved at least along within being Opt-in now instead of Opt-out. One thing Recall never was was an all access "God of your computer".

 

Is the feature a good idea? In a way yes, it certainly could be useful. Does that feature have a ton of issues around it, also yes. The possibility at all to exfiltrate your Recall data is quite a big security concern.

[Eigenvektor]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The entire point is that it has access to everything.

I thought it is "only" supposed to take periodic screenshots and use OCR to extract text from them, then store all of that in a local database. The issue with that was that it's an unencrypted SQLite database, so every other program on your computer has full access to it.

 

Quote

That doesn't really mean anything in this case. Even if they are encrypted at rest, they can just be decrypted at any time by Microsoft. 

And here I was hoping they didn't have access to the keys… that certainly makes it even more iffy.

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

No it isn't, that is categorically not true and not what Windows Recall is. It has always been and and has only ever been "Snapshots of what is on your screen".

That's what I meant. It has access to everything (on your screen). Making it limited to what's in a browser would defeat its purpose. 

Sorry for not being clear enough. 

[Slipping Jimmy]

On 6/26/2024 at 1:17 PM, Eigenvektor said:

A web app running in the browser generally has much less permissions than a local app. For example it can't search through your files.

SO then it's not recall. It's just co pilot.

 

Let's of these tech people are getting it wrong. There's so little security risk if it is run locally.

[Slipping Jimmy]

On 6/26/2024 at 2:26 PM, Tetras said:

Here are two examples:

Defender already sends your files and it is difficult to turn this feature off and get it stay off.

Microsoft are making OneDrive automatically enabled on future installs and that will send all your documents to their servers unless you opt-out.

Defender does not send your files.

[Slipping Jimmy]

On 6/26/2024 at 9:35 PM, leadeater said:

Windows Recall is. It has always been and and has only ever been "Snapshots of what is on your screen". It never had access to files, keyboard activity, network activity access etc.

So a screenshot is saved as a file. So recall will have access to your files.

[Tetras]

10 minutes ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

Defender does not send your files.

It does. Look up sample submission.

[Eigenvektor]

47 minutes ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

SO then it's not recall. It's just co pilot.

 

Let's of these tech people are getting it wrong. There's so little security risk if it is run locally.

Co-pilot is a chatbot. Recall takes screenshots and makes them searchable. Recall running in a browser does not suddenly turn it into Co-pilot.

 

The risk people are talking about is Recall taking screenshots, using OCR to extract text from them, then storing all of that information in an unencrypted file on your local disk. Which means any other program running on your computer now or in the future can access it. These screenshots and/or the text extracted from them might contain sensitive data, including passwords, personal health information and more. That's the risk.

 

41 minutes ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

So a screenshot is saved as a file. So recall will have access to your files.

"Access to your files" in this case refers to the AI's capability to read and analyze any file found on your computer's drives. That's very different from being able to read/write to/from an app specific directory and nothing else. Access to a specific directory does not equal Access to your files.

 

44 minutes ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

Defender does not send your files.

Windows defender has the ability to upload "suspicious" files to Microsoft for further analysis. It should prompt for user confirmation if the file likely contains personal data. So yes, it can and does send files.

[aqarwaen29]

linus is correct AND WE DONT NEED SKYNET INSTALLED IN OUR COMPUTERS!

 

and secondly i dont understand why Microsoft,apple, Samsung  etcall force their stupid ai bullshit with operating system.

why it cant be optional download, then you do w updates we could hust select ai download from optional update catalog.

i dont get it why we are forced to install skynet in our computers 

[leadeater]

16 hours ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

So a screenshot is saved as a file. So recall will have access to your files.

It has access to images of files not the file, nor does it have access to every file on your computer. If it has not been displayed on your screen then Recall has never had access to the image of it.

 

If you open a document and view page 1 of 100 then Recall only ever had access to page 1 not the entire file.

 

There is a VERY big difference to Recall having access to the files on your computer and Recall only taking screenshots of what is on screen at intervals.

[cooky560]

Every time I see  a new "feature" in Windows 11 that's aimed at taking me away from windows 10, I consider Linux. 

[Slipping Jimmy]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:00 PM, Eigenvektor said:

The risk people are talking about is Recall taking screenshots, using OCR to extract text from them, then storing all of that information in an unencrypted file on your local disk. Which means any other program running on your computer now or in the future can access it. These screenshots and/or the text extracted from them might contain sensitive data, including passwords, personal health information and more. That's the risk.

You can also say the same about any file on you PC.

If recall is just doing OCR. What is the point of it then?

 

Would it know how much I paid in taxes last year?

[Eigenvektor]

3 hours ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

You can also say the same about any file on you PC.

If recall is just doing OCR. What is the point of it then?

Correct. A program running on your PC generally has access to all of your files. Technically this can be solved by running programs in their own user context and limiting the files this user can access. In some ways UAC already does this, because programs started by an administrator no longer run with administrative privileges by default.

 

However, programs do not have access to a detailed history of everything you did on your computer. Which is where Recall comes in.

 

Recall is supposed to take periodic screenshots of your desktop, then use OCR to extract text from them. The point is to create a detailed history of what you did on your computer and to make it searchable using natural language. For example you could ask it a question like "I signed up to a new online account yesterday, which username did I use?", or "Yesterday, I signed into a website as Slipping Jimmy as my username, which one was it?"

 

In other words, Recall is not "just doing OCR". It creates a detailed record of what you did on your computer, OCR is simply a technical tool it uses to do that. In combination with an LLM that searches through these recordings.

 

3 hours ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

Would it know how much I paid in taxes last year?

If you do your taxes on your computer, not only would it know what you declared, it would also know the order in which you declared things, where you made corrections and so on. And whether you did any online searches in between on how to "optimize" those numbers. And since the history of your activities is effectively stored in plain text, any other program could as well.

[Slipping Jimmy]

On 6/30/2024 at 11:51 PM, Eigenvektor said:

If you do your taxes on your computer, not only would it know what you declared, it would also know the order in which you declared things, where you made corrections and so on. And whether you did any online searches in between on how to "optimize" those numbers. And since the history of your activities is effectively stored in plain text, any other program could as well.

And that is the point. I download the PDF after I file. So that is still in plain text on my computer.

[Eigenvektor]

12 minutes ago, Slipping Jimmy said:

And that is the point. I download the PDF after I file. So that is still in plain text on my computer.

Downloading such a file to a directory that is globally accessible is your personal decision. Software running on your computer also wouldn't really know about the file, without scanning your drive and checking every file for potentially sensitive information.

 

Compared to that Recall's database is effectively a well-known target that is pretty much guaranteed to contain sensitive information.

[cooky560]

20 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Downloading such a file to a directory that is globally accessible is your personal decision. Software running on your computer also wouldn't really know about the file, without scanning your drive and checking every file for potentially sensitive information.

 

Compared to that Recall's database is effectively a well-known target that is pretty much guaranteed to contain sensitive information.

The other issue is when does it become hard to disable, when Windows 10 first came out there was a setting to remove web search from the start menu, then it became a group policy setting, and now it's something that has to be done in the registry.

 

Windows 11 offered offline accounts in the "pro sku" and now it doesn't

 

How long before turning this off requires some weird "fix"?

 

[Slipping Jimmy]

18 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

Downloading such a file to a directory that is globally accessible is your personal decision. Software running on your computer also wouldn't really know about the file, without scanning your drive and checking every file for potentially sensitive information.

 

Compared to that Recall's database is effectively a well-known target that is pretty much guaranteed to contain sensitive information.

You are still not getting it. 

I never said it should be unencrypted.

But it is still not any different from all the files that you have on your PC.