I have three microchip implants, AMA

[PacketAuditor]

I think this would be an interesting conversation to have with a larger, more mainstream community. I believe that if more people had additional information about this technology, they might become interested. If you are skeptical, I encourage you to try to be open-minded; I was very skeptical before installing them, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that all my concerns were already addressed. If it's not for you, so be it, but I figure, why not share my experience, provide some information, and answer some questions.

 

There is way more information that I can possibly provide in this post, so I will link some additional resources. But I will primarily be sharing about the devices I personally have (there are many others with different capabilities). All of my devices were purchased from Dangerous Things, which is to my knowledge the largest manufacturer and source of non-medical implants. Nothing in this post is medical advice or sponsored content. And keep in mind, I may have experience and implants myself, but I am just a guy. There are more qualified subject matter experts out there though.

 

VivoKey Apex Flex (Flex Style) (13.56 Mhz NFC)

Out of my devices, this is definitely the most feature rich with the most utility. This implant secures all of my accounts and acts as a cryptocurrency wallet. It is actually a Javacard that supports app deployment, so it can be upgraded down the road with new apps. Currently I am using a 2FA TOTP code generator app that generates my 2FA codes on-chip (video demonstration), and uses an app on my phone to display them to me. So even if my phone falls in the ocean, I can tap it on any phone in the world and access my accounts. It also has a Passkey FIDO2 WebAuthn applet that functions similar to a Yubikey on supported sites; so for many accounts I can simply tap it on a USB PC/SC reader to login. I can even log into the LTT forum with a tap of my hand.

This device also has a card payment applet pre-loaded, so in theory it can support tap to pay with a linked debit/credit card. Though this is currently not working due to EMV rules. If EMV ever allows this functionality on implantable devices I will have this ability. It also supports a few other applets that I don't use (PGP, HMAC-SHA1, NDEF, Tesla Key, etc).

These narrow flex style implants are installed via a 4 gauge/5mm needle, or scalpel. It's a pretty quick procedure and isn't as painful as you might think.

Video:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

xSIID and NExT (Injectable Glass Tags) (13.56 Mhz NFC & 125 Khz RFID)

 

These are much more simple devices. The xSIID contains an NTAG I2C chip and an LED. The LED is illuminated when the device is powered by a 13.56 Mhz NFC field.

 

The NTAG chip can have any NDEF type record deployed to it (URL, Text, Web Search, VCard Contact, Email Address, GPS location, Wi-Fi Network, Crypto Address, any many more). These can be accesses by any smart phone by tapping to the NFC coil.

The NExT contains a similar NTAG chip, but it also has a low frequency (125 Khz) T5577 chip. This can be used on a lot of legacy access control systems.

I use these as my house and car keys. I only carry a phone with me, no wallet or keys. I also use these to login to my computer. They can also be easily used on some models of safes, and many devices can be retrofit to support these with a simple relay.

 

Video of unlocking my car and a server room at my workplace:

Spoiler

 

These glass implants are installed via a 3mm injector assembly.

Photo:

Spoiler

Links:
Durability and safety testing

Implantable technology primer and beginner guide

[emosun]

11 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

If you are skeptical, I encourage you to try to be open-minded; I was very skeptical before installing them, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that all my concerns were already addressed.

i'd be skeptical that whoever installed them wouldn't fade away into obscurity like every single other niche medical implanted tech company. But who knows maybe you'll beat the odds. It's not like a giant company can just go bankrupt suddenly leaving people with proprietary useless implants that don't conform to any common standards or anything.

[PacketAuditor]

6 minutes ago, emosun said:

i'd be skeptical that whoever installed them wouldn't fade away into obscurity like every single other niche medical implanted tech company. But who knows maybe you'll beat the odds. It's not like a giant company can just go bankrupt suddenly leaving people with proprietary useless implants that don't conform to any common standards or anything.

Most if not all of these devices conform to industry standards. In fact, the only one that has anything proprietary is the Vivokey Apex Flex. This is so there might be a chance at payment capability in the future.

There is a nearly identical open source version of the Apex called the DangerousThings FlexSecure that will not be able to support payment ever. Though it does have double the storage capacity because it doesn't have the EMV payment applet preloaded. But Vivokey does have a clause in their agreement with Fidsemo (they hold deployment keys and would handle payment) that if they go under, they will release the keys to unlock the Apex devices to make them functionally a FlexSecure.

The Apex also has the benefit of being very user friendly with applet deployment and management with the Fidesmo App and Apex Manager app.

I am still adding information about this to the original post as well as information about physical durability and safety testing.

[venomtail]

1. How does the battery keep charge
2. How difficult is it to get through airport security
3. What happens if you need an MRI

[PacketAuditor]

24 minutes ago, venomtail said:

1. How does the battery keep charge
2. How difficult is it to get through airport security
3. What happens if you need an MRI

1.  There are no batteries in these devices. They all are powered passively by the reader. The range is anywhere from ~5-35mm.

2. There is no trouble with airport security, they won't even detect them, and likely wouldn't care about them anyway. I just went through TSA a couple of days ago.

3. The microchip style implants are MRI safe and have been tested in up to 3 Tesla machines (they are likely safe up to 7 Tesla I imagine). Here is a response to this question form the founder of DangerousThings. There are magnet implants that don't share the same MRI compatibility, it is recommended that those type are removed prior to MRI, though some people have gone through an MRI with the smaller fingertip sensing magnets with no trouble. I will touch on this in the original post in a later edit.

[emosun]

28 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

I am still adding information about this to the original post as well as information about physical durability and safety testing.

zip disks are physically durable and safe too

[PacketAuditor]

2 minutes ago, emosun said:

zip disks are physically durable and safe too

Not sure what you mean. ZIP drives have none of the application or benefits of implantable technology.

[BoomerDutch]

Sorry i don't think this is great idea.

What if something happens at bank or account or anything at all there's no way to recover is it there? 

 

Bad idea to have all stuff in that little device

[PacketAuditor]

3 minutes ago, BoomerDutch said:

Sorry i don't think this is great idea.

What if something happens at bank or account or anything at all there's no way to recover is it there? 

 

Bad idea to have all stuff in that little device

It's absolutely still recommended to have backup codes or save TOTP enrollment seeds in a secure place just like any other 2FA method. You can store them digitally (KeePass or similar), on paper, or in another device like a Yubikey or external device with the same P71 chip.

The implant just provides maximum security and convenience.

[emosun]

6 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

Not sure what you mean. ZIP drives have none of the application or benefits of implantable technology.

they do have the advantage of non implantable technology in the the sense that i can just stop using them when they get immediately outmoded by a better standard and they aren't permanently stuck in one of my hands.

is there any reason this implant couldn't have just been a bracelet or a card?

[PacketAuditor]

16 minutes ago, emosun said:

they do have the advantage of non implantable technology in the the sense that i can just stop using them when they get immediately outmoded by a better standard and they aren't permanently stuck in one of my hands.

is there any reason this implant couldn't have just be a bracelet or a card?

Yes, technology rapidly advances. But RFID and authentication standards tend to stick around quite a bit longer than most. Many RFID protocols have been around for several decades and will continue to be in use for many more. Even if they become obsolete in the world, I still control all of the access control systems that I deployed myself, like my home, car, PC, etc. I expect TOTP and FIDO2/WebAuthn to be around for a long time as well, Passkeys are still a pretty new thing.

And due to the nature of the Javacard devices, they are more "future proof" because applets can be removed and replaced.

And they already are available in card and ring form factors if that works better for you. Personally I love the advantage of it being implanted. Can't be lost, stolen, or forgotten. Security by obscurity is at play too.

And at the end of the day, if in 5-20 years I want to get one replaced, I will have a 2 minute procedure and be done with it. The years or decades of convenience and security, not carrying keys, etc will be well worth it to me.

[emosun]

2 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

Can't be lost

yes it can , your hand isn't indestructible

4 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

stolen

if you go around telling everyone then yes it can

5 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

or forgotten

yes it can , you aren't immune to memory loss either.

 

6 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

And at the end of the day, if in 5-20 years I want to get one replaced

5-20 years is pretty optimistic.

though who knows.... maybe you'd still be rocking a pentium 4 windows xp machine in 2024 telling us how futureproof the standard was. nothing like locking into a technology and just hoping the software never stops working.

[PacketAuditor]

If I am being honest I think a lot of your thought process is sensationalized.
 

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

yes it can , your hand isn't indestructible

If I lose my hand I have bigger problems than generating 2FA codes for my Google account or getting into my car/house... Plus I have secure backups.

 

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

if you go around telling everyone then yes it can

Basically every single human carries a wallet and phone, but worrying about being mugged isn't stopping you. And if you are being honest an implantable device is way more secure than a wallet or ring, even if it's just by obscurity. And come on let's be realistic... I am not a billionare or high level government figure...

They would have to know who I am, where I will be, where it is implanted, the protocol they need to scan it with, get within a couple centimeters from me without me noticing, and on top of that, what to even do with the seemingly random string they obtained.
 

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

5-20 years is pretty optimistic.

though who knows.... maybe you'd still be rocking a pentium 4 windows xp machine in 2024 telling us how futureproof the standard was. nothing like locking into a technology and just hoping the software never stops working.

Many RFID protocols have been around since the early 1980s. I really don't think 20 years is optimistic for RFID access control or FIDO2/WebAuthn. And again, applets can be updated, and I manage most of the access control systems I interact with.

[emosun]

3 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

If I am being honest I think a lot of your thought process is sensationalized.

ditto

[da na]

46 minutes ago, emosun said:

zip disks are physically durable and safe too

not in an MRI

[da na]

Can you read/write these while they are inside you, or does that have to be done before insertion? Seems like a neat idea to have a few-kilobyte data disk always literally at the tip of your finger. But there's also the other side of the coin - seems like anyone could write data to these - or access data from them - whether you want them to or not.

Do they have an 'off' switch? If not... It sure would be really easy for me to walk up with my $12 NFC writer from AliExpress, copy your digital house key, and erase your NFC chip. I'd then be able to write your access code to a card or keychain and steal your bank account credentials, and you'd be stuck with a blank chip. Seems like it could be a huge security problem.  

 

IMO, implanted NFC is a great idea for medical ID because you can't lose it. Already done with pets, could be useful for first responders if implanted in humans. Could contain a list of medical conditions, home address, emergency contacts etc...

I can scan my dog with my Flipper Zero and the NFC chip lists "ANIMAL:Y" - useful for if I ever need to prove he's not a person in a costume I suppose. I'm sure the ROM can hold a longer list of useful data.

[Bananasplit_00]

Unless the cryptographic keys on these devices can be updated i would probably not be interested. There is a good reason you get a new credit/debit card every few years.

 

 

[PacketAuditor]

1 hour ago, da na said:

Can you read/write these while they are inside you

Absolutely! With a smart phone or computer.

 

1 hour ago, da na said:

It sure would be really easy for me to walk up with my $12 NFC writer from AliExpress, copy your digital house key, and erase your NFC chip. I'd then be able to write your access code to a card or keychain and steal your bank account credentials, and you'd be stuck with a blank chip. Seems like it could be a huge security problem.  

Not exactly. You would have to be a high level and targeted individual, and they would have to get within a couple centimeters of your implant, know the location and proper orientation for scanning, without you noticing. They would also have to know the frequency to scan and protocol and know what to do with the data. Much easier and much more likely for someone to come up to you with a knife/gun and demand you wallet, keys, and phone. And you'd have less recourse in that situation.

All FIDO2 CTAP interactions also require a 4 digit pin when prompted, so nobody could login with your account credentials much less steal them. I don't believe there is any way to copy a credential either.

But overall, any alternative or traditional method of carrying keys/credentials is worse off security wise. And again, security by obscurity is also not to be underestimated.

 

1 hour ago, da na said:

IMO, implanted NFC is a great idea for medical ID because you can't lose it.

Absolutely, there is already some work being done with this. I know some countries have digital IDs and Passports and I believe the FlexSecure has applets to store those.

 

1 hour ago, da na said:

I can scan my dog with my Flipper Zero

Flippers are loved in the implant community and can interact with a lot of the implants used in humans as well.

[PacketAuditor]

1 hour ago, Bananasplit_00 said:

Unless the cryptographic keys on these devices can be updated i would probably not be interested. There is a good reason you get a new credit/debit card every few years.

The UIDs and keys can all be updated! And if EMV gets approved, any payment cards will be tokenized much like Google/Apple pay, and are objectively better than a traditional card with just static data.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Can you hear the radio, like people with metal implants?
 

Spoiler

 

 

[Erioch]

1.  Why?

[PacketAuditor]

5 minutes ago, Forbidden Wafer said:

Can you hear the radio, like people with metal implants?
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Haha, there actually are some people who install magnets in their tragus, the little flap in front of the ear. While they can't hear the radio you can hear power supplies, chargers, power stations, etc.

Personally I like fingertip sensing magnets and think they're a little more useful.

[PacketAuditor]

15 minutes ago, Erioch said:

1.  Why?

Reasons why I love mine are not limited to:

 

Convenience:
I don't carry a wallet or keys (house or car), and therefore can't forget/lose them or lock them in my car. I don't have to worry about losing my authenticator app. I can share my full contact with you and my website by tapping your phone. I can login to my computer and most of my accounts with a tap on a USB reader. If my phone fell in the ocean I wouldn't be nearly as inconvenienced as if I was using Google Authenticator for example. I can deploy implant based access control to virtually any door or compartment.

 

Security:
More secure than an authenticator app (and no need for cloud sync), I don't have to worry about SIM swap attacks using SMS TOTP, no physical wallet/keys to be stolen, my crypto wallet is in my hand (no need to use central exchanges or worry about hardware wallets).

 

6th Sense:
Soon I am getting a magnet in my fingertip which will effectively be a 6th sense. I can sense live wires with AC current running through them, feel power supplies, microwaves, EV chargers, air fryers, motors, tell between types of metals and gauge carbon content with just a touch, hold small screws, do cool magic tricks. Ultimate fidget toy in my eyes. You can even get switches that are sensitive to magnetic fields and hide them to be used as an invisible button or switch.

 

It's freaking cool as heck:
Come on bruh it's Cyberpunk, my hand glows! Just look at the videos in the OP, doors just open for me at a wave of my hand, you have to admit that's sick. Not to mention the possibility of applet upgrades in the future, or the ability to pay for things with my hand.

[Erioch]

10 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

I don't carry a wallet or keys (house or car), and therefore can't forget/lose them or lock them in my car.

Most modern cars won't let you lock the keys in the car.  Also, no one else can drive your car.  That's not a feature, imo.

11 minutes ago, PacketAuditor said:

Come on bruh it's Cyberpunk

Cyberpunk stories ALWAYS end badly.

[PacketAuditor]

6 minutes ago, Erioch said:

Most modern cars won't let you lock the keys in the car.  Also, no one else can drive your car.  That's not a feature, imo.

I enrolled a generic tag for my girlfriend to access my car. Could be a card or ring form factor as well. I enjoy my empty pockets, if you like carrying keys I won't judge. Most new cars also support using a phone as a key. The Tesla card applet is natively supported on one of my implants as well.

 

6 minutes ago, Erioch said:

Cyberpunk stories ALWAYS end badly.

Not sure what this means, is this a reference to the game lol. Ask Amal Graafstra, the founder of DangerousThings, he's been implanted with no issues since 2005. Or ask your dog.

Or anyone with a proven medical implant with a safe coating/encapsulation. Those have been around longer than you or I have.