This Review is Going to Make Me Very Unpopular

[HenrySalayne]

10 hours ago, hishnash said:

I expect google will just cancel that phone line (and create a new one) and drop os support for that one in 3 to 5 years.

Hello EU consumer rights. Google would most likely have to refund the phones partially. Seven years of updates equal a use period of around 8 years, which would entitle customers to a refund. Updates stop after 3 years? Hello 50% refund. I doubt Google would dare to do this.

[Senzelian]

11 hours ago, hishnash said:

I expect google will just cancel that phone line (and create a new one) and drop os support for that one in 3 to 5 years.

It's ridiculous to think that Google would get rid of their fastest-growing market.

 

25 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Hello EU consumer rights. Google would most likely have to refund the phones partially. Seven years of updates equal a use period of around 8 years, which would entitle customers to a refund. Updates stop after 3 years? Hello 50% refund. I doubt Google would dare to do this.

Unfortunately, our rights as consumers in the EU aren't as good as you describe.

[HenrySalayne]

24 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Unfortunately, our rights as consumers in the EU aren't as good as you describe.

Oh, I would take a bet on this. This obviously has to go through court. Nevertheless, retroactively changing guaranteed features of a product rendering it effectively useless way ahead of time is something clearly in violation of the law. On top of that Google could be liable for unfair competition and face a lawsuit from their competitors. Not honouring their advertised 7 years of updates would absolutely blow up in their face.

 

At this point maybe we can stop the fearmongering some very particular people with very particular backgrounds are trying to start and focus back on the topic at hand.

[hishnash]

11 hours ago, Senzelian said:

It's ridiculous to think that Google would get rid of their fastest-growing market.

 

Did not say they would get rid of android... just that they would cancel this phone line and group working on it.  Aka shut down the google pixel group and bring back Nexus (or some other brand line) with a different group working on it.     
 

 

11 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Hello EU consumer rights. Google would most likely have to refund the phones partially.

The wording google used was android updates and they had a load of *** as well to constrain it.

For all we know next year google will move to Fuchsia and put android on live support. Google is not compelled to release new versions of android or even sec updates, what they said is just that they would provide (some) new version updates and (some) sec updates for 7 years.  They did not say google will provide support for all future Google software on this HW nor did they say that they would continue to make the OS that this HW is running (a google pixel fork of android) so what happens when google stop making new versions of this fork... they stop shipping os updates right. 

[hishnash]

10 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Not honouring their advertised 7 years of updates would absolutely blow up in their face.

There is a lot of grey in what `updates` mean.   And there is nothing in the marketing promising regular updates, it does not say "google will ship regular updates every month for 7 years" nor does it say "all future android features will be back ported to this HW and will ship same day as the latest HW."  The marketing is be no means watertight, what google said does not even promise they will fix sec issues they find with the HW/OS/Firmware for 7 years just that if they have updates (that are compatible) that they will ship them..  it does not in any way compel them to create updates that are compatible. 

[Senzelian]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

Did not say they would get rid of android...

Did not say you said that...

 

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

just that they would cancel this phone line and group working on it.  Aka shut down the google pixel group and bring back Nexus (or some other brand line) with a different group working on it.    

That won't happen either

[Asschen-Sukar]

I remember from researching the FP5 that they claim they chose an SoC that was guaranteed to have sufficient support, so they could make it to that eight years. The problem was there is no "mainstream" smartphone chip that has that kind of support, so they had to go with a different, less powerful kind. These faster chips are simply not made or meant to last that long. And it shows: with the mainstream brands, it's always been a matter of wait and see what they'll do, usually disappointing on all the sustainability fronts. And now we're bickering about how it seems that they may be trying to do better, comparing it to the brand that is actually doing better? It just blows my mind.

I deeply resent the fallacious argument that the sustainability (and other) topics are just "virtue signalling". I take that personally, because I did not choose to buy this phone just to wave it in other people's faces. I put my money where my mouth is, and I am 100% committed to using it as long as possible. This company has been doing for ten years what literally no other company does. You call that virtue acting, and it should be applauded.

As for the overall performance of this phone: if you want the best, and you want it without delay, and you want x, and you want y, and you don't want to pay extra for the sustainability part... don't buy it. It's that simple. But please don't think to tell me that sustainability, repairability, fair wages, etc. mean nothing at all. That is utter nonsense, and it's exactly this attitude that has made the "big brands" ignore these topics for decades, and get away with it. Until - finally - laws force them to change. And even then it's a big struggle! And even then they're nowhere near anything you could call fair! I just wish there would be more options like Fairphone out there, also for America, so that a possible lack of performance would not exist. But there just isn't. And that's the real problem we face here.

As for the review: "The repairability, legitimately really cool but I feel they overshot the mark, and they create new problems." The actual fudge, Linus. What a way of supplying context: just flash Ifixit's and Fairphone's website - go look there - instead of doing it yourself.

I recommend watching JerryRigEverything's review if you want a better idea of where this phone sits in the repairability/durability hierarchy. This "a glued-in battery is basically the same as a snap-in" nonsense is just... nonsensical.

[powertoys]

hey, nothing wrong in calling out greenwashing BS

[DaGammla]

Honestly this video is a overall a complete trainwreck and I believe that is because Linus himself wrote it.

1. He compares the Fairphone with a Phone that is ~160€ more expensive and one that does not receive any security updates anymore and later even recommends to buy that phone. WHAT??
2. He does not really talk about important features of the phone. Like the fair product line, the ACTUAL repairability (more on that next), or even the bad features of it like how it is not water resistent (he could've even talked about how he dropped his phone in the pool for the millionth time). Instead he talks about bugs of a third party app that is notorious for its bad implementation, about stock android features/problems like like the active background apps, the back button or the default launcher behaviour, all of which are the same as on the other phone he compared it to (Pixel 8)
3. And now basically the worst part. The repairability. What did he think when he compared the repairability of the Fairphone to the one of the Note? Do you know what you need to repair a glued phone? Suction Cups, Heat Gun, The part to repair (from a donor of ifixit if lucky), and glue to close it all up again. At that point you're gonna save money on the fairphone, where you only need a screwdriver and the parts from the official website. How can one man talk so high about Framework and then forget everything 1 day later and be completely ignorant about repairability?
4. He then compares the performance on bad tests, and even says about the results of the first one that they are not representative.

To me it is incomprehensible how such a bad video can be posted after the entire GamersNexus debakle. To me it shows that little has changed on the quality control, even for videos on the main channel. Maybe this is because @LinusTech just likes to post videos written by him without a second pair of eyes. Also it seems that he just likes making hot takes. I would have rather appreciated a review from someone who knows something about repairability like Dan or from someone who has experience with stock android and could actually give constructive feedback on the Fairphones version, like Luke.

[LinusTech]

I wonder how many of the people who criticized this review are going to buy the Fairphone 5 and daily it for 7+ years.

 

The last part is the most critical. If you aren't actually reducing your consumption, then you've accomplished nothing. You're like a Prius driver who rides around on your gas-hog ride-on-mower on your water-guzzling lawn in California. 

 

It's easy to virtue signal. It's hard to actually daily drive a device that is 'fair' but kinda sucks in every other way - including some SERIOUS usability problems (like the ringtone and vibration one).

[GoStormPlays]

12 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

You're like a Prius driver who rides around on your gas-hog ride-on-mower on your water-guzzling lawn in California. 

That is the best sentence I have ever heard

[HenrySalayne]

37 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

I wonder how many of the people who criticized this review are going to buy the Fairphone 5 and daily it for 7+ years.

 

The last part is the most critical. If you aren't actually reducing your consumption, then you've accomplished nothing. You're like a Prius driver who rides around on your gas-hog ride-on-mower on your water-guzzling lawn in California. 

I somewhat disagree with this sentiment. The environmental impact of a long use period is only one facet of the Fairphone. The mission statement behind the very first Fairphone was social sustainability and fair working conditions for everyone involved in the supply chain. It was supposed to be similar to the fair trade label on coffee or other products.

Back then (and probably nowadays) this meant certain components - without a fully documented supply chain or problematic origins - could not be used, which naturally lead to some odd hardware choices.

Over the years environmental aspects like a more modular approach and long software support have been added to their mission statement. These in particular might honestly be a little bit overly present nowadays.

However, their original mission statement has culminated in national legislation in Germany (EU legislation pending):

Quote

The Act on Corporate Due Diligence Obligations in Supply Chains (Gesetz über die unternehmerischen Sorgfaltspflichten in Lieferketten) came into force on 1 January 2023. The law regulates the responsibility of German enterprises to respect human rights in global supply chains. This includes, for example, protection against child labour, the right to fair wages, as well as environmental protection. The people in the supply chains, enterprises and consumers benefit from this.

 

I do agree that it is rather hard to use a phone with issues for a very long time. And the issues you had with the Fairphone could be deal-breakers for some people and are (mostly) worth mentioning. But I cannot get behind the sentiment that "only people who are using it for 7+ years" accomplished something. That's not the essence of the Fairphone and that's not the only thing it accomplishes.

[Asschen-Sukar]

19 hours ago, LinusTech said:

I wonder how many of the people who criticized this review are going to buy the Fairphone 5 and daily it for 7+ years.

 

The last part is the most critical. If you aren't actually reducing your consumption, then you've accomplished nothing. You're like a Prius driver who rides around on your gas-hog ride-on-mower on your water-guzzling lawn in California. 

 

It's easy to virtue signal. It's hard to actually daily drive a device that is 'fair' but kinda sucks in every other way - including some SERIOUS usability problems (like the ringtone and vibration one).

I'm sorry, how is this relevant to the topic of this review? Do you want to perform a consumption analysis of my entire life? You didn't even bother to say much about the sustainability aspect of the device in your review, let alone provide context about consumer behavior. No, your question is rhetorical, at best, because you know there is no answer to it. At worst, it's an ad hominem, simply unconstructive. And yes, we all know people like that exist but does that say anything conclusive about the meaningfulness of this product? No.

 

As I've mentioned in my previous post, the fact that a company even tries at this level of sustainability in today's market is laudable. Instead of only talking about it, they actually *act* on it. That is not virtue signaling, that is virtue *acting*. And as HenrySalayne very astutely pointed out, there is much more to this product than just its potential lifespan.

 

None of this means that the technical, or even the personal, side of your review is meaningless; your efforts are, as always, appreciated. But, as is obvious when you even briefly look at their website, Fairphone's mission is at the core of their products. Given the fact that they're unique in that sense (in the smartphone industry), that mission deserves to be recognized, offered as, and placed within the relevant context. Also when they fall short. Once more, so we're clear: I just wish there would be more options like Fairphone out there, also for America, so that a possible lack of performance would not exist. But there just isn't. And that's the real problem we face here.

Sustainability and performance are both - I think - important factors of technology. They're not mutually exclusive, in our lives, or in reviews, and it's only human when their balance varies. But the lack of attention for one of them in this review was poignant, and the snarls I saw here about "virtue signaling" are repugnant. So much so that where I usually just leave a like to a video, I came here to offer my opinion. I hope it is appreciated.

[fritzmg]

Fairphone posted a reaction video to LTT's review:

 

[OhYou_]

I'm interested in seeing how this plays out.
it's fairly common knowledge that phones noticeably slow down with os version updates, but no one really explains why.
It's because the manufacturer doesn't give a crap. Like what is the motive to finely tweak and tune whatever garbage google spews out into the next android for a phone they dont even sell anymore? That is why phones revert to a potato as you continue to update them. Probably the worst example was android 7 to 8 where they changed how the cpu governor works and so you update and either your performance was garbage or your battery life was cut into a third because no one cared to tweak it, just ship patch and make the media happy.
Like will fairphone be different? One could argue they have a revenue stream from selling parts, but I doubt its enough to pay for any serious development time.
It doesnt seem like they are even doing that now.
 

Also, I strongly feel like this video should have used an older android phone that actually HAS Lineageos support. The note 5 does not have official support and it's pretty bad to recommend unofficial support as an option, no matter how bs the requirements are.
Something like the oneplus 5, it's almost as old, being from 2017. the oneplus 5 supports the latest lineageos 21 (android 14) and has official support.
 

[HenrySalayne]

31 minutes ago, fritzmg said:

Fairphone posted a reaction video to LTT's review:

 

A few additions:

• wireless charging: I agree with point made for efficiency, but a a removable back cover with wireless charging is possible and would only need a few pogo pins. Samsung did it on their Note 3 devices way back in 2013. That doesn't interfere with repairability. 
• Swapping SIM and SD cards: this should absolutely be doable on the fly. It might not be the most common usecase, but why should you impair how people use their phone. Maybe somebody wants to quickly write an album or two on an SD card to put it into a music player?
• bezels and antennas: despite the snarky undertone, that's something I didn't know and the insight into design decisions is quite cool.
• Battery endurance: I think that's a fair point from Linus, but if the Fairphone has only certain tasks (like video playback) when it doesn't perform as long as other phones, it's less of an issue. Probably needs more investigation.
• minimum ringtone volume and vibration: good that this has made it on the list. Should be an easy fix. BTW, making a custom ringtone with a lower volume on the actual audio file might solve this issue for the time being.

All in all I feel like their reaction video is a good addition to Linus' video, but I also appreciate Linus' review for mentioning a lot of issues and these issues being heard. Questions like "do you need to game?" and "do you need to watch more than 10 hours of Youtube?" have some truth in them, but quantifiable tests should always be quantified. Nobody wants the results of a Youtube playback test to be "long enough".

One weakness of Linus' review (which I already mentioned) and which was mentioned again in the reaction video is the lack of a clear separation between Fairphone and Android issues.

[MarkPol88]

2 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

Swapping SIM and SD cards: this should absolutely be doable on the fly. It might not be the most common usecase, but why should you impair how people use their phone. Maybe somebody wants to quickly write an album or two on an SD card to put it into a music player?

This very function saved my a** because I could, as you said, on the fly insert sd card from my dashboard cam to my phone and prove to the police that I did not jump the yellow-red light, as was stated by some questionable witness. My Sony doing it tool less is another plus.

 

2 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

One weakness of Linus' review (which I already mentioned) and which was mentioned again in the reaction video is the lack of a clear separation between Fairphone and Android issues.

The thing is - and believe me, I do not like playing devil's advocate - does it really matter? If I buy a phone with android I do not care if my problems are because of manufacturer or because of OS developer - I have problems with my phone.

Dumb take, I know, but dumb people use phones too, and they think like that (and not only them).

Linus could elaborate that some problems are on the OS side, but Fairphone shouldn't be able to "wash their hands" even a bit here, IMO.

[OhYou_]

1 hour ago, fritzmg said:

Fairphone posted a reaction video to LTT's review:

 

11:35 ok this dude can piss off. this isnt just haha linus thing. people use their phones every day of their life. why the hell should we change years of muscle memory because you dont want to write 5 lines of code or even have the consideration and understanding of how other people feel about your product design choices.
and I'm guessing the clock position is the same way too.
 

[Display Name is REQUIRED]

Catchy title for a video that I can't helping thinking is... meh.

While watching the video I got a feeling the author could not figure out what to say, so that person just started nit-picking.

[Asschen-Sukar]

The video from Fairphone seemed pretty fair - sorry. And the disappointment you see is very understandable. After watching it, Youtube recommended me a review - also from someone who used it for a month - that was the best I've seen, so far. I highly recommend it, especially if you want answers to a few of the questions that popped up in this thread.