Do regular Headphones have as good 3D audio as gaming Headphones do?

[Cazmorior]

Hello there,

my HyperX Headphones from 3 years ago don't work anymore, I can only hear audio from one side, but if I turn on the volume wheel at one specific point I can hear everything normal (from both sides), but to get to the point: I want new ones for Christmas, I looked at normal one, non-gaming like Sony wh1000mx5(and cheaper models) or Sennheisser Accentum wireless (and cheaper). But does it make sense to buy these, I mostly want good surround sound, I tried Sony wh1000mx3 but they didn't cover it as good as my HyperX. Does anyone know good Headphones from Audio quality but also surround sound for gaming.

Thx

[cmndr]

As a rule of thumb, any time you see something described as "gaming" replace the word with "gimmick"

Gaming LEDs... gimmick, gaming mice... gimmick, etc.
This doesn't mean that the product isn't good, just that the marketing is trying to take advantage of a certain kind of person that usually doesn't know much and tends to obsess over having "the best". 

In the world of headphones, the rule of thumb is that good headphones in general will work well when it comes to sound stage and imaging. Open back headphones generally do better here than closed back headphones. Some designs will opt for different trade offs.

Sony's XM4/XM3, etc. are closed back headphones with a design goal of good ANC. They're not great for sound stage and imaging. They're great for commuting, going on a plane, working out, zoning out the loud person next to you in the office, etc.

There's other good choices out there for sound stage and imaging (sennheiser, beyerdynamic, etc.)

[Cazmorior]

17 minutes ago, cmndr said:

As a rule of thumb, any time you see something described as "gaming" replace the word with "gimmick"

Gaming LEDs... gimmick, gaming mice... gimmick, etc.
This doesn't mean that the product isn't good, just that the marketing is trying to take advantage of a certain kind of person that usually doesn't know much and tends to obsess over having "the best". 

In the world of headphones, the rule of thumb is that good headphones in general will work well when it comes to sound stage and imaging. Open back headphones generally do better here than closed back headphones. Some designs will opt for different trade offs.

Sony's XM4/XM3, etc. are closed back headphones with a design goal of good ANC. They're not great for sound stage and imaging. They're great for commuting, going on a plane, working out, zoning out the loud person next to you in the office, etc.

There's other good choices out there for sound stage and imaging (sennheiser, beyerdynamic, etc.)

Yeah, that’s why I asked if the „gaming“ maybe does make a difference. But does that mean that the other headphones also have this surround sound? Because the wh1000mx4 didn’t work for me, that what gave me the insecurity from the start. I will only use them for gaming and like hearing on planes and so, so I think I’ll pick the closed back ones then. Do you maybe have a recommendation in the price range of 250€ up and down a bit. Many said that the Sennheiser Accentum wireless sound great but no one ever said something about the surround sound. 

[Tigerleon]

56 minutes ago, Cazmorior said:

But does that mean that the other headphones also have this surround sound?

Surround sound isn't possible in headphones or "gaming" headsets. There is only good stereo imaging. Open-back headphones tend to have a wider soundstage with more "depth".

[cmndr]

I haven't researched mid-range headphones in ages. I kind of went straight to end game (Sennheiser HD800) 10 years ago and I'm still using them, without obsessing over new headphones. The XM4s that I am wearing right now are definitely worse than the HD800s in terms of sound quality but I can still enjoy them. There's a certain value to not judging how good something is and just enjoying your music. 


As far as headphones are concerned, don't worry too much about "surround sound" or Dolby or any of that. You have 2 ears, headphones have 2 drivers, it all pretty much just works out. More speakers/drivers matters for speaker set ups in a physical room (but even then two GOOD speakers can get you pretty far). 

As far as gaming is concerned, I'd try to avoid wireless. The models I was looking at ~10 years ago were things like Sennheiser HD598, BeyerDynamic DT770 (closed back but still alright), and DT990.

You might also want to look into things like the HD600, HD650 or their massdrop equivalents (something like HD6XX). Going off memory I think the two are similar with the 650 being tuned for more bass while the 600 emphasizes accuracy (personal preference thing)

I want to emphasize, I'm around 10 years out of date. I think the general concepts still hold up though. I still see these devices recommended somewhat often (but that could just be intertia). I do think the rest of the market has "caught up" to some degree. 

[Rodinski]

Anything tuned to the harman curve will give you the greatest accuracy in positional audio.

[Cocococo]

7 hours ago, Cazmorior said:

. Do you maybe have a recommendation in the price range of 250€ up and down a bit. Many said that the Sennheiser Accentum wireless sound great but no one ever said something about the surround sound. 

Wireless headphones pretty much always have really bad "surround" sound (the term in headphones is soundstage/ staging and imaging soundstage is how wide what you're listening to sounds (like in a game you could hear someone moving on the same floor on your left) then imaging is how accurately the sound is located, anything can do left and right but great imaging will tell you (using a game example again) that they're on the far left corner and moving slowly. Open back headphones pretty much universally have better imaging and soundstage than closed counterparts (open you can hear the entire world going on around you, closed backs muffle the world out) as for recommendations for good soundstage and imaging your best options at this approximate budget ( i'm rounding up to 300, easier to find a deal) the best option bar none is the FiiO FT3 (open backs, best soundstage and imaging all the way up until 400-500usd, a pretty close second place is the Audio Technica R70X (open backs) that are much easier to find discounted or even bought new at around 250 the headband looks weird but is pretty comfortable, as for a 3rd option it will be VERY hard to get quickly but the Moondrop Para (open back) are great headphones, i would be wary of QC, they're very new and moondrop's headphones have had a few more failures than they should have. Then Sennheiser HD600/ 650/ 6xx/ 580 are all very good, obiously of these recommendations they image/ have the narrowest soundstage (still leagues above closed and especially wireless closed headphones) but they are very reliable, the design has been made since 1993 and are still the gold standard alll the way up until like 500usd.

 

Hope this has been helpful, if you really want wireless then there's one good option and it's the Audeze Maxwell, but they're pretty unlikely to get in your budget soon (Maxwell are VERY good though, best sounding closed backs all the way up to like 900usd and beat out even the mass market wireless headphones for features) 

[Psittac]

What you are looking for is soundstage, imaging and stereo separation.  Going for a wired solution will greatly increase your options over wireless.

 

I will say that it is very easy for even a closed back audiophile like headphone to beat a gamer headset.

 

I would suggest separating your two needs, desktop gaming and listening on an airplane, this will make thing's far easier.  By this I mean some good fitting IEM's (in ear monitors)  Which can be had for $20 from something like linsoul audio.  Then get a pair of open backs for your gaming needs.  For that I would recommend the Phillips Fidelio X2HR or X3, they sound great with your onboard audio and you'll have room to pick up an affordable dac/amp if you really want to max your budget.

 

I would say that given the criteria of being better than gaming headphones, you would walk away happy with the Rode NTH-100, Meze 99 Noir or Neo, or AKG K361 (has a BT option).  I guess I need to get a pair of hyperX to really understand if they are good or not, but my time with headsets has not been excellent.

 

3 hours ago, Rodinski said:

Anything tuned to the harman curve will give you the greatest accuracy in positional audio.

I never figured that a headphones audio signature had anything to do with positional audio accuracy.  In my mind it's just the "color" or lack of in the sound.  I will say that it took a while for me to hear actual "3D sound" in the focal elex and dt1990pro but that helped train my brain.  Now even on my T50rp a semi-open headphone I'm getting great soundstage and imaging.  I will say that I don't think the harmon curve affects imaging but I can't say for sure.

 

 

[Cocococo]

5 minutes ago, Psittac said:

I never figured that a headphones audio signature had anything to do with positional audio accuracy.  In my mind it's just the "color" or lack of in the sound.  I will say that it took a while for me to hear actual "3D sound" in the focal elex and dt1990pro but that helped train my brain.  Now even on my T50rp a semi-open headphone I'm getting great soundstage and imaging.  I will say that I don't think the harmon curve affects imaging but I can't say for sure.

 

 

Brighter tilted tuning is easier to notice wider soundstages and smaller drivers can move quicker to help out more with the separation, my AKG K702's are brighter than my Sennheiser HD600's and upon initial testing i thought they were wider than said 600's. Upon further listening (a bunch of live orchestra albums) i noticed that K702 couldn't give me the kind of accuracy for lower pitched instruments that the 600's can. I'm not an audio engineer but higher pitched sounds are easier for (relatively) small drivers to separate violins and trumpets, or even a higher pitched key pianos vs something like grand organs where sounds are so low that you straight up need a larger speaker to adequately separate (it's why the FiiO FT3 are the widest headphones in the 300usd price bracket, those 70mm drivers do some serious work) 

[Tigerleon]

6 hours ago, Cocococo said:

those 70mm drivers do some serious work) 

They are 60mm right?

[Cocococo]

3 minutes ago, Tigerleon said:

They are 60mm right?

Oh man i didn't catch that, yeah they're 60mm's

[Cazmorior]

I really appreciate this much help! I will need time to understand everything 100%, but I myself can adapt pretty easy because I love "normal" speakers so I already have a connection. I will look up the every Headphone that you listed me and then maybe will ask more questions or I might find the perfect one. Thank you so much!

[cmndr]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:54 PM, Psittac said:

I will say that I don't think the harmon curve affects imaging but I can't say for sure.

I'm going to speculate. The following is quasi-scientific and based off intuition developed from bookshelf speaker measurements with respect to things like group delay. 
I don't think it would have a large, direct impact. 

For some drivers and some frequency ranges more power/signal can make the drivers a bit more responsive. The flip of that is past a certain point, distortion and being a bit overdriven can have negative effects. 

The impact would be pretty modest and would vary with the sounds being played. 

All in all the big thing applying a harman-curve would do is make the sound more enjoyable if you like bass (or you're bass neutral but prefer listening at softer overall levels).
 

[Cazmorior]

So as I promised, I am going to tell you what I have now... My Father bought the "bowers and wilkins px7 s2", I am not sure, cause I never really heard anything from them. The Ratings I found online were good, but said if you hear rock, sounds get lost, I personally can only trust the few reviews that I found online, and if it were true that rock and a few high pitches in classical music get lost, then it won't be my pick. The dumbest part right now is, that I am not allowed to were them because it's a Christmas present.

 

I am also struggling to choose from open and closed backs. I think you convinced me to take open backs, but they don't have drivers that I can download. And of course don't have noise canceling, which isn't such a big deal for me now.

 

At best I have the simplicity to connect between from PC and Phone, cause I like to take photos but also want to hear the surroundings in the nature. And now this is the part where both sides collide. On the one hand side, open backs give me the wanted sound, while also letting me hear the nature, but are probably a pain to switch from PC and Phone, because they have a cable. Also they will drain my phone battery like nothing.

 

On the other side, the bluetooth headphones (=closed back for me) are super easy to disconnect, as they don't have a cable and most have transparency mode which will let me hear the nature, but aren't that good and will certainly decrease the quality. The only other upside is that if I would go into public, is that I have noise canceling.

 

One question, can open back headphones have drivers, to adjust EQ and more? I have also heard much about external AMPs and more, which will cost more, but I am not really ready to pay even more for already expensive headphones. Are they a must when buying open backs?

 

I really don't know what I should choose, I am tending to open backs but I think closed backs are better for my needs. I am looking at the beyerdynamics dt series often, do they qualify for my needs, or what do your recommend?

 

I am so sorry, I know it hard to help me with so many extras and stuff. Of course I would be thrilled to see replies. Thanks!

[Cocococo]

2 hours ago, Cazmorior said:

So as I promised, I am going to tell you what I have now... My Father bought the "bowers and wilkins px7 s2", I am not sure, cause I never really heard anything from them. The Ratings I found online were good, but said if you hear rock, sounds get lost, I personally can only trust the few reviews that I found online, and if it were true that rock and a few high pitches in classical music get lost, then it won't be my pick. The dumbest part right now is, that I am not allowed to were them because it's a Christmas present.

 

I am also struggling to choose from open and closed backs. I think you convinced me to take open backs, but they don't have drivers that I can download. And of course don't have noise canceling, which isn't such a big deal for me now.

 

At best I have the simplicity to connect between from PC and Phone, cause I like to take photos but also want to hear the surroundings in the nature. And now this is the part where both sides collide. On the one hand side, open backs give me the wanted sound, while also letting me hear the nature, but are probably a pain to switch from PC and Phone, because they have a cable. Also they will drain my phone battery like nothing.

 

On the other side, the bluetooth headphones (=closed back for me) are super easy to disconnect, as they don't have a cable and most have transparency mode which will let me hear the nature, but aren't that good and will certainly decrease the quality. The only other upside is that if I would go into public, is that I have noise canceling.

 

One question, can open back headphones have drivers, to adjust EQ and more? I have also heard much about external AMPs and more, which will cost more, but I am not really ready to pay even more for already expensive headphones. Are they a must when buying open backs?

 

I really don't know what I should choose, I am tending to open backs but I think closed backs are better for my needs. I am looking at the beyerdynamics dt series often, do they qualify for my needs, or what do your recommend?

 

I am so sorry, I know it hard to help me with so many extras and stuff. Of course I would be thrilled to see replies. Thanks!

Open back headphones are always going to have wider and more detailed soundstages because the air the drivers (the little speakers inside headphones and IEM's) move can dissipate out the back of the earcups rather than increasing in pressure and picking up reverberation inside closed earcups (its why good closed headphones are so hard to find, controlling the pressurising air is REALLY hard) 

 

The Bowers and Wilkins headphones your father picked up have decent ANC but are going to be limited in sound quality due to the active noise cancelling (quick and dirty explanation ANC picks up sound, calculates an opposite frequency and plays the opposite frequency while mixing said opposite frequency into your music) and the little speakers (called drivers in headphones and IEM's) inside the headphones can only move so fast before they max out and physically can't play the great sounding music you want to hear while also cancelling the outside noise you don't want to hear.

 

An open headphone will sound a lot better with the drawback of no noise cancelled at all, as for your questions about EQ I'm of the opinion that EQ is a bit like sprinkles on ice cream, it can improve the experience slightly but no bad ice cream can be saved by dumping kilos of sprinkles on top. EQ will not make a bad sounding headphone suddenly become good, it can compliment a good sounding pair but overdoing does kinda spoil the sound (it also tends to limit the soundstage because the drivers are being moved very differently to how they were designed, wear isn't a problem but you do give up staging) 

 

As for DAC's and AMP'S frankly they are bordering on snake oil at times, all you really need 90% of the time is an Apple USB-C dongle. There are Bluetooth dac/ amps out there that have a lot of EQ adjustability, the best of the bunch is the Qudelix 5k, you can even plug it into your PC as an external sound card and it doesn't wear out the battery (FiiO and iFi products are notorious for this, Qudelix has better EQ adjustment than anything anyway) 

 

Finally for the kinds of headphones you are looking at and thinking about frankly Beyerdynamic are one of the worst headphone makers for wide soundstages and imaging, their best product is the DT880 and in all honesty there are plenty of headphones that image better for less money with better quality of life features. Idk what budget you're looking at now so I'll play it safe and go up to around 300usd.

 

Sub 50 usd: Koss KSC-75 and Koss Porta Pro (nothing else here is worth considering)

 

Sub 100 usd: AKG K612, AKG K702, Sennheiser HD560S (you may have to look for used/ refurbished pairs, K612 are the best imaging of these options, but the quality of life features are the worst and have had issues with driver wires remaining connected) 

 

Sub 150usd: Sennheiser HD560S, Beyerdynamic dt880 (HD560S are better in every single way, DT880 are just what I'd settle on, honestly I'd take KSC-75 over the DT880) 

 

Sub 200usd: Sennheiser HD6XX (if you can get HD6XX for sub 200 usd then I'd take them over everything on this list) 

 

Sub 250usd: same as 200 (unless you can find a pair of Audio Technica R70X in this price, not super common though) 

 

Sub 300usd: FiiO FT3, Moondrop Para, Audio Technica R70X, Sennheiser HD600, Harmondyne Zeus (Zeus of the weakest of these picks imo, FT3 and Para are essentially equal for soundstage, FT3 has better low instrument separation but Para are a comfy 2nd in this price range) 

[Koolholio]

A speaker on your earlob is a speaker… “if it sounds good on NS10s” is actually a studio joke

whether the circuit is of decent quality and whether there’s limitations of particular setups…

 

id say the ones your looking at focus on a nice crispy hi end more than say Bose or JBL or Dolby specially handle bass frequencies