How to justify 70 hours work weeks for $10k a year(pre tax)?

[Avocado Diaboli]

31 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Where did i "complain" about my working conditions? I merely gave an example of them. Did i say i hate my job because of the working conditions? Did i say I'm underpaid due to my working conditions? 

I would much rather endure my working conditions than being couped up in cubicle. 

Your "woe is me" sure sounds like complaining when you have to use it as a cudgel to downplay the working conditions of others. Typical human behavior, everything is a contest, either who has it the best or who has it the worst.

 

Also, I don't have a cubicle, I have my own office. The perks of being management.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Oh, okay. McDonald's air conditioners the whole entire building except for the kitchen?

I’ve worked at BK. The air conditioning doesn’t make a difference in the kitchen. I’ve also worked when the air conditioner was broken and it was the hottest august on record. You clearly never worked food service and it shows in your ignorance. 

[Rocketdog2112]

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Your "woe is me" sure sounds like complaining when you have to use it as a cudgel to downplay the working conditions of others. Typical human behavior, everything is a contest, either who has it the best or who has it the worst.

 

Also, I don't have a cubicle, I have my own office. The perks of being management.

Nope... Never complained about my working conditions. My only complaint was you felt the need to associate the working conditions of flipping hamburgers with the real world conditions of actual physical work. 

 

So you're a manager in a big office enjoying the perks of participating in the higher paid, higher class corporate greed. 

Interesting.... 

[Rocketdog2112]

45 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

I’ve worked at BK. The air conditioning doesn’t make a difference in the kitchen. I’ve also worked when the air conditioner was broken and it was the hottest august on record. You clearly never worked food service and it shows in your ignorance. 

Oh Boo Hoo. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

4 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Nope... Never complained about my working conditions. My only complaint was you felt the need to associate the working conditions of flipping hamburgers with the real world conditions of actual physical work. 

 

So you're a manager in a big office enjoying the perks of participating in the higher paid, higher class corporate greed. 

Interesting.... 

No, what you were doing is playing the argument of relative privation and no true Scotsman fallacies. To you, real world work only happens when you do it, not when a burger flipper does it. And whatever burger flippers have to endure on their job ain't that bad because hey, you have it worse and that invalidates all their issues.

 

Also, I work for the government, so no part of corporate greed.

[WildDagwood]

8 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Is this meant to imply that other people should damn well live in poverty just so you can have a cheap meal at McDonalds? Yeah, paying fair wages increases prices, but I'd wager making it fair for everybody is still a better outcome than just determining that a portion of the population get to live in abject poverty and work in slavish conditions just so you can live cheaper.

 

Besides, most global scale corporations could increase the salaries of their lowest earning employees by a factor of 3 and still cover all that with the bonuses they drop annually on their C-level executives, who don't work any harder than those on the front-lines but somehow still get paid thousands of times more.

 

You have to account for purchasing power. A raw number means nothing if we don't know what it costs to live there. But the bottom line is 70 hours is never an acceptable amount per week anywhere. There's a reason why most first-world countries have capped somewhere between 40 and 45 hours and many push for that to be lowered. For one, free time is just necessary. But more importantly, more hours do not result in more productivity, so it's essentially worthless to employers. Not to mention the health side-effects of overworking for employees.

The point is that raising the minimum wage doesn't actually get lower-earning people any further ahead (they stay right where they were), it only brings the middle class down. Unless you're going to regulate when/how/why businesses can increase the cost of their offerings, they inevitably just increase them to cover the additional costs. Small businesses can't afford not to, and big ones refuse to take a hit because they want to keep investors happy. CEO's probably want to maintain their bonus' as well, and missing metrics due to spikes in labour costs will directly impact that, regardless of whether it was foreseeable or not.

 

But yeah, this guy is a tool. No one should be working 70 hours a week unless they choose/want to.

[dcgreen2k]

I don't care whether someone works in skilled or unskilled labor, they deserve to get paid fairly and paid enough to support their family. And when I say "support their family", I mean being able to house, clothe, feed them, and live comfortably.

 

Right now I make $20 an hour working as a research assistant at my university, to help pay for tuition and rent. It's skilled labor. Would I be upset at some kid if they made $25 an hour working at a fast food place? Absolutely not, good for them.

 

Being upset at a burger flipper for making more than minimum wage is downright sociopathic behavior. If anything, the one to be upset at is your own employer for paying you less than them.

[IkeaGnome]

3 hours ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Why should skilled labor be payed more? Because most if not all skilled labor have invested time and money to further their education in their job field. Money spent on training and equipment to stay up to date.

 

Do you think a burger flipper deserves the same pay as my job as a certified diesel mechanic who has spent tens of thousands of dollars on tools and training throughout my career? 

 

If you don't like the pay (or working conditions), then don't apply for the job. 

Nothing worse than some who applies and takes a job knowing full well what it pays only to bitch about the pay when the receive their first paycheck. 

If you're only making $15 an hour as a diesel mechanic you're in the wrong shop. I got out of trade school in 2013 and started fresh out of school just over $20 an hour. 

Our new lube techs start at $25 an hour...

3 hours ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

You're insane. When's the last time a burger flipper had to work in an unairconditioned or unheated shop up to his elbows and grease and grime getting their knuckles skinned and pulling muscles? When's the last time a burger flipper had to go out in a blizzard or a hundred plus degree temperatures to do a roadside repair? 

Man... shop life really is rough.

/s

I know a lot of mechanics that would love those conditions compared to risk of rockfall, rounds going off, getting stuck in a fire etc. 

[WildDagwood]

6 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Again, that's not a truism. A musician doesn't get paid generously, but time invested in practice, money invested in instruments, tools and software also is in the thousands. Meanwhile, plenty of well-paid jobs require little to no further financial investment. 

 

At the end of the day, what matters is the amount of work that gets done. A burger flipper works just as hard as a diesel mechanic.

A musician (in this instance) is self-employed and not working for anyone. If they're signed to a label, they're likely compensated just fine, though, not as well as others if it's their first contract. It's also an industry where your success is subjectively decided by the masses and can turn on its head if pop culture goes another route.

 

Not really a good comparison overall, imo.

 

There needs to be value placed on the type of work being done, otherwise there's zero incentive for people to strive and contribute more to society. That said, I don't think it should be as imbalanced as it is now, as the gap in wealth is getting out of control.

[Avocado Diaboli]

20 minutes ago, WildDagwood said:

The point is that raising the minimum wage doesn't actually get lower-earning people any further ahead (they stay right where they were), it only brings the middle class down. Unless you're going to regulate when/how/why businesses can increase the cost of their offerings, they inevitably just increase them to cover the additional costs. Small businesses can't afford not to, and big ones refuse to take a hit because they want to keep investors happy.

I understand the point. But every time someone manages to realize this issue, they often shy way from naming the actual culprit, which is capitalism itself. We have the means of enabling everybody to have a decent life to not worry about finances. But we choose to have a system that inherently relies on an underclass to serve a middle or upper class. And that system pits everybody against each other.

 

If you're in the middle class, it's in your best interest to keep poor people poor. For one, you can comfort yourself for not being on the bottom rung of society. But more importantly, poor people earning less ensures the product and service sectors these poor people work in stay affordable to you. You can tell how important that is by how vehemently people try to justify the status quo.

 

I think it's an absolutely astounding view into the abyss of the human heart that @Rocketdog2112 displays here when he complains about burger flippers because fuck them, I want my cheap burgers, they got nothing to complain about. Their fault for being unskilled workers. Shut up, and yes, I would like some fries with that.

 

11 minutes ago, WildDagwood said:

A musician (in this instance) is self-employed and not working for anyone. If they're signed to a label, they're likely compensated just fine, though, not as well as others if it's their first contract. Not really a good comparison overall, imo.

 

There needs to value placed on the type of work being done, otherwise there's zero incentive for people to strive and contribute more to society. That said, I don't think it should be as imbalanced as it is now, as the gap in wealth is getting out of control.

Nope, ask any musician signed to a label if they're happy and they'll never stop complaining. What do you think why direct publishing through Spotify and Bandcamp was hailed as such a great thing initially when musicians could cut out the middle men? Little did they know back then that Spotify is just the vizier who murdered the king from the shadows to assume the crown themselves.

[Dillpickle23422]

16 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

If you're only making $15 an hour as a diesel mechanic you're in the wrong shop. I got out of trade school in 2013 and started fresh out of school just over $20 an hour. 

Our new lube techs start at $25 an hour...

Man... shop life really is rough.

/s

I know a lot of mechanics that would love those conditions compared to risk of rockfall, rounds going off, getting stuck in a fire etc. 

Yeah, 15$ an hour for a diesel mechanic is really bad. At the landscaping company I work for, the shop guy makes like 37 an hour. Shoot, I make more than 15 an hour doing part time odd jobs at a farm, and I make 16 an hour landscaping/mowing (which is on the lower end, since I'm still in HS, and 34$ an hour plowing and shoveling in the winter).

 

Edit: if you're making 15 an hour as a diesel mechanic you're being played, or you are incredibly bad at being a diesel mechanic at which point you probably should reconsider your line of work

[WildDagwood]

3 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

I understand the point. But every time someone manages to realize this issue, they often shy way from naming the actual culprit, which is capitalism itself. We have the means of enabling everybody to have a decent life to not worry about finances. But we choose to have a system that inherently relies on an underclass to serve a middle or upper class. And that system pits everybody against each other.

 

If you're in the middle class, it's in your best interest to keep poor people poor. For one, you can comfort yourself for not being on the bottom rung of society. But more importantly, poor people earning less ensures the product and service sectors these poor people work in stay affordable to you. You can tell how important that is by how vehemently people try to justify the status quo.

 

I think it's an absolutely astounding view into the abyss of the human heart that @Rocketdog2112 displays here when he complains about burger flippers because fuck them, I want my cheap burgers, they got nothing to complain about. Their fault for being unskilled workers. Shut up, and yes, I would like some fries with that.

 

Nope, ask any musician signed to a label if they're happy and they'll never stop complaining. What do you think why direct publishing through Spotify and Bandcamp was hailed as such a great thing initially when musicians could cut out the middle men? Little did they know back then that Spotify is just the Vizier who murdered the king from the shadows to assume the crown themselves.

Couple of edits you missed, but they're not overly important.

In the end, you won't find an argument from me that capitalism isn't broken, however, communism isn't the answer either, and the amount of moving parts that would inevitably happen when changing to any other economy is daunting to consider. Not to say that just because something is hard you shouldn't try, but there are so many logistics involved that there isn't a single person on this forum who is knowledgeable enough to iron them out.

[DANK_AS_gay]

4 minutes ago, WildDagwood said:

Couple of edits you missed, but they're not overly important.

In the end, you won't find an argument from me that capitalism is broken, however, communism isn't the answer either, and the amount of moving parts that would inevitably happen when changing to any other economy is daunting to consider. Not to say that just because something is hard you shouldn't try, but there are so many logistics involved that there isn't a single person on this forum who is knowledgeable enough to iron them out.

The best answer we have is socialism, but that won't work (to some degree it already isn't) due to the top heavy population pyramid. https://www.populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/2020/

With life expectancy increasing, and the number of new workers decreasing, we cannot afford our old people right now as it is, (mostly because we waste so much on military budget but good luck convincing anyone to cut that back at all), let alone if we pay for so much more. In 1940, there were 42 workers per retiree. Today the ratio is 3-to-1; by 2050 it will be 2-to-1.

[BrandonLatzig]

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

If you're in the middle class, it's in your best interest to keep poor people poor.

I dont like this :c

[Rocketdog2112]

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

If you're only making $15 an hour as a diesel mechanic you're in the wrong shop. I got out of trade school in 2013 and started fresh out of school just over $20 an hour. 

Our new lube techs start at $25 an hour...

Man... shop life really is rough.

/s

I know a lot of mechanics that would love those conditions compared to risk of rockfall, rounds going off, getting stuck in a fire etc. 

Where and when did i state i was making $15 hour? 

 

3 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

The best answer we have is socialism,

Oh God.... Not this. Not in a million years. 

 

3 hours ago, Dillpickle23422 said:

Yeah, 15$ an hour for a diesel mechanic is really bad. At the landscaping company I work for, the shop guy makes like 37 an hour. Shoot, I make more than 15 an hour doing part time odd jobs at a farm, and I make 16 an hour landscaping/mowing (which is on the lower end, since I'm still in HS, and 34$ an hour plowing and shoveling in the winter).

 

Edit: if you're making 15 an hour as a diesel mechanic you're being played, or you are incredibly bad at being a diesel mechanic at which point you probably should reconsider your line of work

Who said anything about making $15 an hour as a diesel mechanic? 

 

4 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Also, I work for the government, so no part of corporate greed.

Well, there you have it. It may not be corporate, but it's a greedy sector non the less. 

[IkeaGnome]

8 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Where and when did i state i was making $15 hour? 

That's the implied part if someone making $15 an hour makes you feel insecure about your certs. If you're not at $15 an hour, you're close to it. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

11 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Well, there you have it. It may not be corporate, but it's a greedy sector non the less. 

Oh no, what a gotcha. It seems obvious to me that there's no point to discuss this with you any further. You have no clue what you're talking about, you're judgmental while at the same time being irrationally defensive of your post in life. I hope you can grow up to the point where you can see that people not living in poverty is more important than you stuffing your face with cheap Bic Macs.

[LogicalDrm]

*** Thread locked ***

 

Heading towards politics. And not very nice and Community Standards worth ways to discuss either.

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