Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[LinusTechLies]

5 minutes ago, Glorthiar said:

The amount of pathetic bull-shit in this thread.
Its like watching a group of 8 year olds argue about batman and superman.
A bunch of whiny babies engaging in the worst faith argument possible and sticking staunchly to their side regardless of evidence.

Treating this shit like a fucking war

Acting like none of them have ever fucked up

This is the most pathetic horseshit I have ever seen

You mean pathetic like lying about the timeline not talking responsibility for your own actions and that OF THE COMPANY YOU CREATED? And straight up lying to your own community and making yourself out to be the victim.

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

1 hour ago, atxcyclist said:

But that’s the nature of having multiple platforms. I daily a MacBook Pro, developers using Metal API in games makes them better when I’m on my laptop. It only makes sense that a reviewer would use the most efficient means on a platform. As both a Windows and Mac gamer, I definitely want results with the most efficient API on a given platform.

That might be, but it makes direct comparisons ridiculous and pointless unless if you start comparing assets and image quality, because the base premise of benchmarking is that you compare the systems while attempting to achieve the same result. Otherwise any figure you come up with is quite meaningless, that's why I brought up the PS2 vs PS3 example as well. If you just go by a single metric and don't compare the output quality, the PS2 was often the better system, but it just looked horrible in comparison.

  

59 minutes ago, Wolta said:

Just for the sake of perspective: I work for a company pretty much exactly the size of LMG. We design and sell interior design products, and have outwards facing content and commercials produced in house and ship worldwide.

 

Communication fuck-ups are not common. If they happen, they are investigated between parties affected and immediately resolved with an action plan to avoid future issues. Each of us at times return from a couple weeks of vacation with over a hundred emails to go through, and we aren’t dealing with another company’s darling one-of-a-kind intellectual property. 
 

This is not to say that your words don’t hold water; slip-ups still happen, and issues can occur as a result of communication not reaching the other end as intended. However, these should be a rarity at this size and there should always be extra attention paid to projects including particularly valuable designs. This is purely evidence towards a lack of attention to mistakes and action plans to correct them in LMG.

I've seen fuck ups happen in both five people start-ups and multi-billion dollar corporations with a hundred thousand employees, though I suspect I'm more exposed to them because my role typically involves project coordination and management combined with external contractors. It's really easy for e-mails to go lost, people to forget to set out-of-office replies, the contact person leaving the company and not providing a clear follow-up contact, etc. And you try, but if it's a chain with multiple people in it, things go lost. So my general attitude towards these sort of screw ups is more "how do you intend to fix it" instead of raising the pitchforks.

[E-Waster]

Whether I stick around entirely depends on Linus’ next moves

[Wintyr]

this response brings to mind the Star Lord from Artisan Builds lvl of insanity at this point i am not 100% sure what to think

[sgsrrhreneat]

3 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I made a post 80 pages ago, several in fact, talking about how Steve's claims are not without merit. I'm commenting on Steve's self-imposed process, and nothing else related to it.

i wasn't talking about the merits of steves claims, i was merely pointing out the fact u called out steve to be a hypocrite  while overlooking the hypocrisy on the part of the organization you are defending.

 

 

 

[__Dreamer__]

Just now, Legitsu said:

years of research?

you gn guys sure like pulling numbers out of your ass

might want to link the accual reddit thread and not some youtube reacts video

 

well, you definitely not coming with a new CPU cooler in a day
the point is that Linus throw in the garbage the work of 2 guys without even feeling bad

[Thepyrodex]

Just now, AlienALX said:

 

Because I am not 100% sure it is true. Like many things in life, you may never have all of the facts or, critically, BOTH sides of the story. However, that doesn't mean you should avoid it.

 

I don't want to stick my neck out and start saying what I think in other words. I know how the law works for the most part too, so just being careful is all. 

Again, YOU are not liable in any way for posting a link to a YouTube video.

 

the people who could be:

the creator

youtube for posting it

 

people who can’t be:

everyone else who didn’t actually say the words or write them and PUBLISH them as truth.

 

[harls]

3 minutes ago, WillHeard said:

He vetted the claims billet made. that means Billet gave GN access to the email that was used to communicate with LMG. The timeline is a factual claim, it would be a massive deal if Billet had hid something from Steve intentionally or otherwise. There is no evidence, other than Linus' words in that post he made before he got a response from Billet, that it is anything but the whole truth. 

Linus never said LMG and Billet agreed to a price.  He very well could have been talking that LMG internally agreed to pay and would need to discuss the price.   The fact that Steve feels LMG is bad so he does not have to see if there is a different answer doesn't mean there isn't.  Or it could be that Linus was trying to pull a fast one.  Steve is wrong in his "journalistic" approach.  Linus is wrong in his handling of Billet, we just do not know how wrong.

[Thyri]

So one thing I was getting from Linus' "explanation" of this was that because the monoblock was ungodly expensive then it was not in consumers' best interest and noone should purchase it.   

Ok explain then why you also review multiple processor mega builds and review them at benchmark.  But those are different how?   Noone in their right mind will be making those kinds of builds either, but maybe its because its Billet Labs is a small startup, and Intel is a sponsor and has deep enough pockets for you.

 

I've been following LTT since some of the early days of youtube.  I've seen the channel go from a guy building PCs and reviewing with an unbiased eye to make decisions on pieces I wanted to build with, to seeing sponsors and receiving tech left right and center for free and then reviewing those free items favorably.  I'm willing to accept a fair bit of advertising on channels.  I understand that everyone making videos deserves the opportunity to make a good living at it.  But when every video is a very poorly veiled advertisement and sponsors receive favorable reviews while when you spend your own money on a product or its an "unknown" company or they dont sponsor you, suddenly they're not worth it, suddenly they receive poor reviews against sponsor products (Noctua anyone?)

 

I've already slowed my consumption of LTT, and really, for a channel and organization of this size, my lost subscription and lost views mean nothing.  My views on a forum arent going to impact the executive structure of LMG.  I'm just another voice in the crowd, and that voice clearly doesnt matter to a large organization who is worth millions of dollars.   But I will be finding another source for tech content.  One that does not give favorable reviews to their sponsors' products, who actually test products properly, and who dont steal from startups to SELL/AUCTION prototypes and then claim that they didnt read the room properly.

 

Do better.

[ImpliedSilence]

15 minutes ago, Glorthiar said:

1. The follow up seem particularly more hostile and just straight up fucking rude compared to the previous video
2. What in the fuck do you want linus to say/do? it seems like when people are criticized they are not allowed to stand up for themselves or explaiun any actions? what in the actual fuck do you want linus to do, fall to his fucking knees and beg forgiveness while flagellating himself? To give his fucking channel to GN and live in the mountain like a hermit?
No fucking matter what Linus did or said it was not going to be enough for people who are just fucking gung ho to ride the fucking hate train.

Not lying would be a good start.....

[VisibleXela]

5 minutes ago, swimtome said:

If I watched Steve's video without any other context, I would think Linus was selling the block for his own monetary gains. 

The GN video specifically says the block was sold at LTX through an auction for Extra Life (probably paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact way the sentence was structured). If you don't know what Extra Life is I can understand the confusion, but speaking for myself I understood perfectly fine what happened.

 

EDIT: straight from the subtitles:

Spoiler

894
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,100
send it back was June 30th at LTX Linus

895
00:33:45,538 --> 00:33:49,079
media through put the one-of-a-kind

896
00:33:47,099 --> 00:33:50,879
water block up for auction at its extra

897
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:52,980
life auction event without the

898
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,960
permission of Billet Labs Billet did not

It's phrased weird, but they did say it was auctioned for charity.

Edited August 15, 2023 by VisibleXela

[dragoonx007]

this just seems to be wasted of time talking about until linus makes a video on this i think this theard should be locked at this point these covo's are going no where

[TheEugeneKam]

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed myself in the response, I guess ill see after the WAN show if he does clarify his stance, kind of a last-ditch attempt to see if LTT is really going to take a stance the same way they call out others on literally the post they made. Was around from NCIX days and was a fan but this is the kind of thing that really makes me stop respecting companies/people who don't practice what they preach.

 

This was a big inflection point and could have either brought the fanbase up or down, and this was straight down in my eyes. A lot of people will still stick around due to parasocial relationships but even if that was the case, that response is not a positive one for anyone in the guise of that kind of relationship with LTT. 

[WillHeard]

Just now, Thepyrodex said:

Again, YOU are not liable in any way for posting a link to a YouTube video.

 

the people who could be:

the creator

youtube for posting it

 

people who can’t be:

everyone else who didn’t actually say the words or write them and PUBLISH them as truth.

 

this is as basic as it gets know your rights please people

[jooroth18]

3 minutes ago, smilingjackkk said:

Yeah how about those Floatplane numbers, eh? They're tumbling down like your credibility @LinusTech

Ok comments like this are just rude and not helpful.

 

In the end i think we should push him to do better with affermative action, but insulting remarks are just gonna cause @LinusTech to double down with emotions.

[Pailloran]

20 hours ago, LinusTech said:

we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype

I don't see anything in that statement that indicates a timeline.  He's stating that (presumably in response to the criticism for the issue occurring) they made the decision to do so and sent something out, but no claims that they did it before the GN video.  But in any case, it's an effort to start to fix the error, no?

I honestly find the entire situation ridiculous and barely worth attention.  Steve had a bad return experience with NewEgg once and acted like he uncovered some massive conspiracy (umm, to lose their customers?).  I will admit that I watched the NewEgg videos, all 172 hours of them, but seemed a tad overblown.  

 

Now he's saying "You made mistakes sometimes!" in a hit-piece presumably made after being unhappy about a differentiation comment in a labs video.  Linus admits in his response that yes, they make mistakes, but probably should have taken more time with his response.  So, Steve says that his wording was 'carefully chosen' and he's gaslighting... Ugh, nothing about that quoted text looks 'carefully chosen' and that's what is really wrong with it, but implying that it's intentionally deceptive also seems like gaslighting.  Internet drama, yay...

 

Edited for crimes against grammar...

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Pailloran

[fohatadri]

4 minutes ago, LinusCatTips-is-Dead said:

They are just trying to make a point. You don't have to be snarky because you feel the need to defend a centi-milionare who most likely does not care about you.

Except that the guy made an account to specifically post this like Linus or anyone else actually cares about his opinion on the issue.

[QuantumQuill]

I don't understand how GN didn't go through proper journalistic practices for this conflict. Like all of the points presented in the original 44-minute video had corroborating evidence. As someone who loves LTT content the response made yesterday was difficult to read.

And ya, splitting hairs around selling versus auctioning was completely ridiculous. If a brand Linus was reviewing made the same semantic argument about a warranty claim that wasn't accepted, he would have ripped them to shreds, and rightfully so.

[Thepyrodex]

4 minutes ago, TimedPing said:

Stove top popcorn is overrated, I'll prepare the BBQ grill real quick

Doesn’t Linus have a terrible propane cooled pc we could use?

[Major_Hylton]

At 119+ pages I think now is a good time to post this...

 

I think we can all agree that there are issues that need to be addressed here however I think we all need to remember that @LinusTech is a human being who will, either directly or indirectly, will see / hear about what is said here today.

 

Just take a moment and think about how you'd feel if all of these comments were directed at you.

 

 

[ImaginTK421]

I know Linus has said he won't bring this up in the WAN show but I'm pretty sure if he doesn't Dan is going to really struggle to curate the merch messages this week. The chats across all platforms is going to be a mess. Every chat will be about this and I can just see Linus digging a bigger whole if he just starts reading the chat and then gets emotionally set off.

 

The thing is, Linus has always prided himself on doing the best work possible. Someone showed him that he is currently failing at that. I know what it feels like to fail and the one thing that you felt like you can't afford to fail at. You go into fight or flight mode and that seems to be what's happening. The test of integrity is to take a moment, get past that instinct, admit that you failed, and then do something about it. This isn't the end of the world, there is a path forward. That is why he actually needs to address this. It seems like he is banking on the idea that it'll go away and that isn't what I would personally do. I would do what I've done in the past, own up to it and tell the truth. If you shoot straight instead of making excuses people will accept your apology. Please, learn from every company ever and fix this.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

3 minutes ago, AlienALX said:

 

I know a lot about business. An awful lot. I know that it is hard. I know that for the first five years you will not be able to spend one penny, as it is all make or break for five years. I have worked with corporations, and I know a lot of inside info about the dirty business of sales, sales techniques and so on.

 

Linus lost his character years ago. As soon as the business started making bank and he started buying big houses? you lose that hunger. That dedication. This has been easy to see with the content. Rushed, cynical cash cow videos. He even did a video explaining which videos make him the most money. He said it was live streams, and then what do you know? lots of live streams happened.

 

The problem is? when it becomes all about money many things are sacrificed. It no longer becomes about learning, it becomes about posts like the OP - AKA damage limitation.

 

Let's face it. LMG is a well oiled, capitalist corporation. And for making money? it totally works. People didn't even stop watching when the videos started becoming laden with "claymores". IE, sales claymores. Injecting as many shout outs to his products as possible. Hell, people even joked about it and thought it was funny. But it wasn't. It was about him making MORE AND MORE AND MORE money. And that? is what it now is. the ENTIRE structure of the channel. Look at the comments from his own staff. "I wish we could slow down and you know, make proper videos" and so on. But no. Even Linus admits this himself. But that is against the terms of being a corporation and that is? to make money at every single opportunity.

 

I stopped watching because of the endless self promotion. Like, the meme side of it was funny for a couple of weeks but then it just totally got on my tits. Couple that with Youtube ramping up ad insertion and etc? Youtube itself to me became just a big meme and a big joke.

 

I do watch content now BUT ONLY with Smart Tube Next. Which blocks all ads, sponsor claymores and god knows what else traps people have stuck in their videos. And it is the only way I can watch it. Like watching an episode of South Park on TV which is like 19 mins long and plumped up to a round 45 minutes with the ads in - UGH.

I think you are mssing the responsibility to staff and paying people in a way that they can make a living and have a career.   Linus isnt a hollow corporate boss, he values personal relationships, he would feel a weight on his shoulders, to well, provide.

 

They switched to merch and created floatplane to secure their revenue pipeline.  It came as a lesson from Vessel.   Ad revenue and sponsor spots simply isnt enough to pay the bills.

 

Considering how media companies are valued, I would make an educated guess that the money makes around $15m revenue a year, then he has 100 mouths to feed $4m, then long term liabilities.  Let say $5m profit, that isnt alot when you factor in level of productivity.

 

I fully agree they need to take the foot of the gas, and the quality of videos arent good enough but the intentions come from the right place. 

[masiton]

I’m some random software development PM in eastern Europe and the LTT response is just wtf. 
 

the GN video can be split into two major points:

 

• Billet labs cooler being incorrectly tested/reported on and then sold without owner’s approval
• Issues with product reviews, be it data from Labs or videos from other LMG channels.

Apologize for the first outright, there is no good way around it. Be transparent about reimbursing Billet. The focus here is not the dollar amount but the attitude towards them.

 

as for the criticism of data and review procedure, take time to analyze this, report back only when you have a report that confirms which errors came back as true and why, and then explain how you adjust SOPs moving forward.

 

It literally doesn’t matter if this is or isn’t hit piece, or if they were or were not supposed to consult you first. If it wasn’t GN today it would be someone else tomorrow. The response and process should be the same either way. 

[Nick980]

Linus's response was at best a rant, he didn't mention any reflection on the issues raised. The errors in the videos have been getting worse and worse for best part of a year now and the Labs was advertised as being the answer to everything but so far, the info from the Labs seems even more error prone and "we're still developing our testing methodology" isn't an excuse, if you've not locked down the testing don't put the information out there.

Short circuit channel shouldn't exist, they can claim it isn't a review but if you're saying giving you a buy or not to buy opinion then it's a review. If it's unboxing then unbox it and give facts about the product, the instant you give your opinions or preferences you're reviewing it. 

[harls]

5 minutes ago, coopa said:

Without a doubt, but do you know what precipitated this? A video tour of LTT Labs, a public Youtube video, monetized and shared widely, where an LTT employee says this:
 

 

Which disparaged both GN and HU and was inaccurate (Steve shows proof that benchmarks are reused by LMG in his video, but said that was fine and ignored it at the time). Then, discussing that Hardware Unboxed replied on the WAN Show, Linus said this:

 

 

 

 

Linus in the above quote basIcally expresses that he's hurt by any criticism, and that the criticism "ignore personal relationships" would be furthering LMG's interests by ignoring criticism. So it's fair for LMG employees (who, by virtue of working for Linus and being a public face in his video content, represent the views of his company) to disparage other hardware review/benchmarking outlets with completely inaccurate statements?

 

Billet asked for the prototype back TWICE before LMG sold it (charity auction), and only offered reimbursement for doing so AFTER Steve published the above video, yet Linus used weasel words in his statement to imply that LMG/Billet had already amicably agreed to a compensation offer to make them whole for the loss of their prototype.
 

And Linus' employee statements are A VIDEO THEY PUBLISHED AND MONETIZED ON LMG'S OWN CHANNEL! If Linus did not want those employee statements, however frankly good or bad they are, he could have simply not had the video made, edited out comments he didn't like, or if the end result was not satisfactory - just don't publish the video.

LMG can't have it both ways. You can't put out statements and video to influence your community and attract views, and then be upset if someone uses those statements as a potential reason why there are many objective errors being made in LTT videos.

You also ignored where Linus said that the engineer should not have said that and that they were wrong for doing so.