Confused about external soundcards

[SephiRock]

Hello,

 

I have been using a Sennheiser G4ME Zero paired with an external soundcard for several years, a Xonar U7 from Asus. I've always wanted to have a good audio experience when it comes to gaming and casual music listening, but i would by no mean qualify myself as an audiophile, i just enjoy having a "not-too-crappy' audio setup, if that makes sense.
My Xonar U7 is starting to become old and because of several problems, i decided to change it. I've always heard that a Xonar U7 was overkill for my personal usage and setup, and i don't know much about how soundcards work, unlike other computers parts.

The reason i'm here is because i don't really know what to buy, i would like an external soundcard that is not too expensive and that has a surround virtualizer available (i know it's part from the driver but that's all).
With the Xonar U7, i was able to use Dolby Home Theater v4, which had a surround virtualizer that i really enjoyed with my headphones.
Can you guys help me figure out what to buy with those criterias ?

 

Thank you very much

[rice guru]

There is the sounblaster g6. It's a pretty Greta product  that has virtual surround sound.only problem with it is creative has garbage support so if you do run into a problem you may be shit out of luck.

but I generally don't ever reccomend stuff that does virtual surround sound but if you really need it you can buy a schiit fulla for a $109 and just use software like boom 3d or razer surround sound to get a similar effect

[SephiRock]

thank you for your answer
i see, it's kinda expensive tho, mmh... From my understanding, being able to use something like dolby home theater v4 comes from the driver of your soundcard, right ? Because i kinda would buy my Xonar U7 again since it's "comfy", but it's apparently known to have poor componants quality, which causes it to run into issues overtime (my issue is that i have to warm up some quartz components at each pc boot in order for it to initialize, kinda lame)

don't hesitate to correct me if i'm getting anything wrong, and i'm open to other suggestions !

[cmndr]

Rule of thumb, spend around 2-10x on your headphones as you do on your DAC/AMP unless you have a compelling reason otherwise. I'm running $1600 headphones on a $100ish DAC and a $100ish amp right now and if I had to do it over again I'd probably skip buying the DAC. 
 

For context, the $10ish lightning to aux DAC used with iphones is "good enough" for most use cases. It's not 1980, pretty good is now pretty cheap for DACs. 

If your external soundcard is giving you issues, see if the onboard one is adequate. It might be and it costs $0. 

[SephiRock]

29 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Rule of thumb, spend around 2-10x on your headphones as you do on your DAC/AMP unless you have a compelling reason otherwise. I'm running $1600 headphones on a $100ish DAC and a $100ish amp right now and if I had to do it over again I'd probably skip buying the DAC. 
 

For context, the $10ish lightning to aux DAC used with iphones is "good enough" for most use cases. It's not 1980, pretty good is now pretty cheap for DACs. 

If your external soundcard is giving you issues, see if the onboard one is adequate. It might be and it costs $0. 

Hey, thank you for your answer !

 

Just to be perfectly sure, would anyone be able to explain to me what is a DAC and its role ? (same for an AMP)

 

And yeah, i tried using the onboard realtek chipset but the sound just feels "off", less "alive" because i miss that surrround virtualization that i'm used to and enjoy having.

[cmndr]

2 hours ago, SephiRock said:

Hey, thank you for your answer !

 

Just to be perfectly sure, would anyone be able to explain to me what is a DAC and its role ? (same for an AMP)

 

And yeah, i tried using the onboard realtek chipset but the sound just feels "off", less "alive" because i miss that surrround virtualization that i'm used to and enjoy having.

There might be a few options you can enable with realtek/windows. 

See if there's an option for heightening the amplification from the onboard audio, it might default to just being a signal out with the assumption that it'll be plugged into powered speakers instead of headphones. Also see if you can use dolby atmos virtualization.

https://www.headphonesty.com/2021/03/windows-sonic-vs-dolby-atmos-vs-dts/

https://appuals.com/how-to-set-up-dolby-atmos-spatial-sound-on-windows-10/

 

 

DACs convert 1s and 0s into an analog sound signal. There are cases where post-processing effects can be "nice" or useful. e.g. applying an eq (this can be done for free in software though). 

Amplifiers take an analog signal and multiply it. In practice amplifiers tend to matter more. 

 

Generally speaking the thing that's "bad" about onboard audio is that the amp is "meh" and there's usually not a huge amount of QA put into it so you run the risk of electrical interference messing with the sound a bit. If you have expensive or otherwise hard to drive headphones, a better amp can help. A bad amp might not be as responsive or it might otherwise struggle if your headphones are high resistance (measured in Ohms). A 600 Ohm headphone with low efficiency will usually be harder to drive than a 32Ohm headphone that's very efficient. More Ohms doesn't necessarily mean better but there are cases where it's worth taking the hit to efficiency/easiness to drive for SOME headphone designs. 


It's probably "fine" for most people though. Most people ought to focus on the headphones/speakers/room treatments more since those are the things directing sound to your ears. 

[Omon_Ra]

2 hours ago, cmndr said:

Rule of thumb, spend around 2-10x on your headphones as you do on your DAC/AMP unless you have a compelling reason otherwise. I'm running $1600 headphones on a $100ish DAC and a $100ish amp right now and if I had to do it over again I'd probably skip buying the DAC. 

A solid set of headphones and even stereo sound (with proper source material) can give you all the soundstaging you would want, without any of the software trickery. 

 

1 hour ago, cmndr said:

Generally speaking the thing that's "bad" about onboard audio is that the amp is "meh" and there's usually not a huge amount of QA put into it so you run the risk of electrical interference messing with the sound a bit. 

 

It's probably "fine" for most people though. Most people ought to focus on the headphones/speakers/room treatments more since those are the things directing sound to your ears. 

My biggest gripe with onboard audio is unplugging/plugging in headphones/speakers with the good ol' reach-around. And the breakouts/extensions for front panel connectors are even cheaper than onboard audio, leading to static-y signals or just an overall bad experience. What I like most about a DAC/amp/external sound device is the tactile ability to turn up/down volume.

[cmndr]

15 minutes ago, Omon_Ra said:

A solid set of headphones and even stereo sound (with proper source material) can give you all the soundstaging you would want, without any of the software trickery. 

 

My biggest gripe with onboard audio is unplugging/plugging in headphones/speakers with the good ol' reach-around. And the breakouts/extensions for front panel connectors are even cheaper than onboard audio, leading to static-y signals or just an overall bad experience. What I like most about a DAC/amp/external sound device is the tactile ability to turn up/down volume.

I'll mostly agree with that. There's definitely SOME nuance when it comes to multi-driver set ups though. I definitely feel something more with 12 speakers in an atmos surround sound set up than I do with a high end headphone set. It's a lot easier and cheaper to do stereo with good headphones though, and you get much of the benefit. Not everyone has a large, well treated and otherwise ammenable room and not everyone is willing/able to restrict where they sit. Some of the DSP magic that goes on in more sophisticated multi-channel set ups is non-trivial. 2 channel stereo to 1 or 2 drivers is "trivial" though and has been for a long time. 

A lot of the software/DAC based remixing is gimmicky. Some people do like it though. I try to avoid it. I try to not judge, especially if there's a free way to get it. 

 

My amp is further away from me, I'm usual clicking on the windows sound button and using the scroll wheel to shift. 

It's also possible (at least in linux land) to program keys to do it. I want to say I did F3 + F4 back in the day. 

[SephiRock]

20 hours ago, cmndr said:

There might be a few options you can enable with realtek/windows. 

See if there's an option for heightening the amplification from the onboard audio, it might default to just being a signal out with the assumption that it'll be plugged into powered speakers instead of headphones. Also see if you can use dolby atmos virtualization.

https://www.headphonesty.com/2021/03/windows-sonic-vs-dolby-atmos-vs-dts/

https://appuals.com/how-to-set-up-dolby-atmos-spatial-sound-on-windows-10/

So i tried Dolby Atmos for Headphones free trial with my headphones connected to my chipset and meh, it's not really comparable to dolby home theater v4 with my xonar u7 + i get a big static noise with the chipset.

All of this is still very confusing to me, i think i might just buy the soundblaster g6x because it appears to have a dolby surround virtualization feature for headphones, and since it's external i shouldn't get any static noise.
But i remain open to other suggestions / explanations !! I think i just need to accept that whatever i'm buying, it will be quite different from what i have at the moment because i can't find any information on how dolby home theater v4 support works.

[cmndr]

3 minutes ago, SephiRock said:

So i tried Dolby Atmos for Headphones free trial with my headphones connected to my chipset and meh, it's not really comparable to dolby home theater v4 with my xonar u7 + i get a big static noise with the chipset.

All of this is still very confusing to me, i think i might just buy the soundblaster g6x because it appears to have a dolby surround virtualization feature for headphones, and since it's external i shouldn't get any static noise.
But i remain open to other suggestions / explanations !! I think i just need to accept that whatever i'm buying, it will be quite different from what i have at the moment because i can't find any information on how dolby home theater v4 support works.

 

If that works for you, it works for you. There's a relatively strong element of subjectivity at play when it comes to certain effects. 

 

 

This is what I got from ChatGPT, not sure if it helps. 
 

Quote

Dolby Home Theater v4 is a suite of audio technologies that are designed to improve the audio quality of your computer's audio output. It works by enhancing and optimizing audio signals to deliver a more immersive and engaging audio experience.

Here are some of the key features of Dolby Home Theater v4:

1. Dolby Digital Plus: This is an advanced audio technology that delivers high-quality audio for a more immersive listening experience. It provides support for up to 7.1 surround sound and enhances audio playback for a more cinematic experience.

2. Volume Leveling: Dolby Home Theater v4 includes a feature that helps to even out the volume levels of different audio tracks. This ensures that you don't have to constantly adjust the volume when switching between different songs or videos.

3. Surround Virtualizer: This feature creates a virtual surround sound effect by simulating the experience of a multi-speaker setup. This is particularly useful for users who don't have access to a dedicated surround sound system.

4. Dialogue Enhancer: This feature is designed to make speech more intelligible and clear, even when there is background noise or music playing.

5. Dynamic Range Control: This feature helps to balance the volume levels of different parts of a video or audio track. It ensures that quiet parts are audible while loud parts are not too overwhelming.

Overall, Dolby Home Theater v4 is a powerful suite of audio technologies that can enhance the audio quality of your computer and deliver a more immersive and engaging listening experience.

 

 

 

[Omon_Ra]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:47 PM, cmndr said:

I'll mostly agree with that. There's definitely SOME nuance when it comes to multi-driver set ups though. I definitely feel something more with 12 speakers in an atmos surround sound set up than I do with a high end headphone set. It's a lot easier and cheaper to do stereo with good headphones though, and you get much of the benefit. Not everyone has a large, well treated and otherwise ammenable room and not everyone is willing/able to restrict where they sit. Some of the DSP magic that goes on in more sophisticated multi-channel set ups is non-trivial. 2 channel stereo to 1 or 2 drivers is "trivial" though and has been for a long time. 

A lot of the software/DAC based remixing is gimmicky. Some people do like it though. I try to avoid it. I try to not judge, especially if there's a free way to get it. 

Oh yeah, I'd always prefer a proper surround sound setup, but OP was talking about their headphones, so that's mostly where I was going with that. I generally avoid any software tweaking to audio paths as well, but I realize I'm a bit more of a 'purist' when it comes to audio things. If it sounds good for someone else's setup, go for it.

[cmndr]

30 minutes ago, Omon_Ra said:

Oh yeah, I'd always prefer a proper surround sound setup, but OP was talking about their headphones, so that's mostly where I was going with that. I generally avoid any software tweaking to audio paths as well, but I realize I'm a bit more of a 'purist' when it comes to audio things. If it sounds good for someone else's setup, go for it.

The software tweaking (and I'm going to include hardware accelerated algorithms) can work VERY VERY well for extracting spatial information from a relatively small channel count. Good 5 channel mixes with DTS-X generally work VERY well when upmixed. Some 2 channel content even scales VERY well to atmos. 

Similar story for doing room correction via EQ and channel delays.

Downmixing is usually kind of "gimmicky" though. It's easier to do more harm than good, though it usually depends on the source content. 

[Omon_Ra]

12 minutes ago, cmndr said:

The software tweaking (and I'm going to include hardware accelerated algorithms) can work VERY VERY well for extracting spatial information from a relatively small channel count. Good 5 channel mixes with DTS-X generally work VERY well when upmixed. Some 2 channel content even scales VERY well to atmos. 

I wasn't counting Dolby/DTS hardware encoders/decoders...but yes, you are correct.

[pas008]

check out hesuvi with your onboard

you can choose from many virtual surround sound algorithms

game sound is made with algorithms same with everything else til it becomes analog pretty much

 

some games do sound great some have horrible sound and it only enhances

and can be easily turned off for the things that do it right

[SephiRock]

Okay so i bought the soundblasterx g6 and i quite like it. I ended up disabling all the effects because i ended up not liking it, even the surround virtualization.
I'm just wondering about a thing : sometimes i get a weird "cracking" sound, it's just kinda "sparky", very brief, but it seems to occur quite randomly. Maybe i set some options wrong, but i'm a bit clueless.
Do you think it could be a problem with the product ? It seems to only occur when discord and / or ff xiv is on, i can't remember having it when i was just watching a youtube video or something like that (maybe i was just lucky).
Does any of you have an idea ? I know my description is a bit vague, don't hesitate to ask me specific ones if you want !!

thank you for your answers

[SephiRock]

Okay it seems to be a driver related issue. I've tried reinstalling them a few different ways but no luck so far. Apparently, creative does have garbage software. I found a reddit post where people said they fixed the issue by switching to usb audio 2.0 drivers. From my understanding, those are basic drivers that come with windows. I might try that before returning the product, but i don't know how to force windows to install those drivers. When i uninstall everything, it gives me another driver, not the usb 2.0 one.

Anyone has an idea ?

[rice guru]

5 hours ago, SephiRock said:

Okay it seems to be a driver related issue. I've tried reinstalling them a few different ways but no luck so far. Apparently, creative does have garbage software. I found a reddit post where people said they fixed the issue by switching to usb audio 2.0 drivers. From my understanding, those are basic drivers that come with windows. I might try that before returning the product, but i don't know how to force windows to install those drivers. When i uninstall everything, it gives me another driver, not the usb 2.0 one.

Anyone has an idea ?

are you using windows 10 or 11?

[SephiRock]

3 hours ago, rice guru said:

are you using windows 10 or 11?

I'm using windows 10, but i'll upgrade my pc soon so if you know how to do it on both, it'd help a lot ty

[rice guru]

13 hours ago, SephiRock said:

Okay it seems to be a driver related issue. I've tried reinstalling them a few different ways but no luck so far. Apparently, creative does have garbage software. I found a reddit post where people said they fixed the issue by switching to usb audio 2.0 drivers. From my understanding, those are basic drivers that come with windows. I might try that before returning the product, but i don't know how to force windows to install those drivers. When i uninstall everything, it gives me another driver, not the usb 2.0 one.

Anyone has an idea ?

Are you plugging them in to a USB 2.0 port? 

[SephiRock]

2 hours ago, rice guru said:

Are you plugging them in to a USB 2.0 port? 

I didn't, it's plugged in a USB 3.0 port, but i managed to find how to force it to install. I went in the devices manager, found my soundcard, clicked "update driver" and asked windows to show me a list of all the driver that were locally stored on my PC. It showed me a driver for me soundblasterx g6, but also the USB 2.0 audio driver, so i was able to install it this way. I also disabled the driver auto-update that is enabled by default.
 

Now i'll test it in everyday use to see if i hear the popping sound again. I still have a question about all this : does the driver affect sound quality ? I'm not talking about all the signal treatment effect like surround and all, i mean just pure and simple sound quality ? I've read online that it isn't the case, that only the hardware matters, but i wanted to ask you folks your opinion anyway.

[rice guru]

3 hours ago, SephiRock said:

I didn't, it's plugged in a USB 3.0 port, but i managed to find how to force it to install. I went in the devices manager, found my soundcard, clicked "update driver" and asked windows to show me a list of all the driver that were locally stored on my PC. It showed me a driver for me soundblasterx g6, but also the USB 2.0 audio driver, so i was able to install it this way. I also disabled the driver auto-update that is enabled by default.
 

Now i'll test it in everyday use to see if i hear the popping sound again. I still have a question about all this : does the driver affect sound quality ? I'm not talking about all the signal treatment effect like surround and all, i mean just pure and simple sound quality ? I've read online that it isn't the case, that only the hardware matters, but i wanted to ask you folks your opinion anyway.

Drivers really shouldn't affect sound quality. The driver of the DAC maybe. But for the most part no. Drivers shouldn't affect sound quality. If all else fails you should maybe try toove it to a USB 2.0 USB port on your motherboard a sim sure it still has that and try that out to see if you hear any crackling. I have read the g6 having som software issues lately. But I didn't know it was this bad really. If you still have issues with this return it and  consider the schiit fulla as a replacement. It doesn't have anything fancy it's just a plain old dac/amp with a mic in no surround settings just plain old volume control. It sounds great. 

[SephiRock]

1 hour ago, rice guru said:

Drivers really shouldn't affect sound quality. The driver of the DAC maybe. But for the most part no. Drivers shouldn't affect sound quality. If all else fails you should maybe try toove it to a USB 2.0 USB port on your motherboard a sim sure it still has that and try that out to see if you hear any crackling. I have read the g6 having som software issues lately. But I didn't know it was this bad really. If you still have issues with this return it and  consider the schiit fulla as a replacement. It doesn't have anything fancy it's just a plain old dac/amp with a mic in no surround settings just plain old volume control. It sounds great. 

Thanks a lot for your answer !

I might consider the schiit fulla, even tho it's not shipped via amazon (i live in France). Because this experience helped me figure out one thing : i'm totally okay with a simple thing that doesn't have anything fancy and all like surround virtualization or whatever.
Stereo is perfectly fine for my headset, i just want a "bug free" experience. ^^
If anyone has other suggestion about a simple DAC/Amp that's fairly okay for a Sennheiser G4ME Zero, i'm open to anything !

[rice guru]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:44 PM, SephiRock said:

Thanks a lot for your answer !

I might consider the schiit fulla, even tho it's not shipped via amazon (i live in France). Because this experience helped me figure out one thing : i'm totally okay with a simple thing that doesn't have anything fancy and all like surround virtualization or whatever.
Stereo is perfectly fine for my headset, i just want a "bug free" experience. ^^
If anyone has other suggestion about a simple DAC/Amp that's fairly okay for a Sennheiser G4ME Zero, i'm open to anything !

Alternatives that should work ok. They both don't sound as good as the current iteration fo the fulla is the mayflower arc and the syba sonic

[Harry Voyager]

I've gotten good use out of my Mayflower Arc Mk2, however it's probably overkill for your headset.

[SephiRock]

Okay so i can confirm that i have an annoying popping sound with the soundblaster, that seems to occur only when using discord.

The on board audio chip has a terrible electrical interference noise when my graphics card is under load so i can't use that either. This is very very frustrating, it seems that whatever product i'll buy will be a complete gamble on wether it has messy drivers or not.

I'm out of option and it just sucks.