How come no one ever talks about just how egregiously bad the SSD situation is on M1/M2?

[Brian McKee]

I have been under the impression that like in the past you could boot mac devices off an external SSD circumventing a dead soldered drive on the motherboard. Not an elegant solution obviously but it would allow an otherwise bricked machine to keep chugging along. However doing my research as I (was) planning on purchasing an M1 device leads me to find out that this is no longer a feature with their ARM based systems.

 

This means that when your SSD dies which is inherently a consumable product (it WILL die some day, sooner or later) the device is just completely bricked. How wonderful. Thanks Apple I almost bought my first mac computer but you just have a way with sucking massive ass. Inexcusable to solder the drives to begin with, but this is just plain insulting. Surprised that no tech channels covered this huge fault in the design. This is of course not even including the heavily worn units near launch when the lower spec'd units were getting over 3 terabytes of wear on their ssds per day making buying a used unit just an absolute time bomb.

[NinJake]

I'd wager 90-95% (or even closer to 99%) of mac users will end up buying a new device before this becomes a problem, or will simply never encounter a failing ssd throughout the lifespan of the device.

 

Only time will tell, but I've deployed numerous machines with the cheapest ssd's money can buy that get used heavily, and written, re-written every restart as there's a "master OS state" that gets loaded back after each reboot and have not had any of the ssd's fail. These machines are at a business that's open 6 days a week ~12 hours a day, so quite a lot of use. This was back in 2016 and they are still going flawlessly, and only 128gb total capacity. The 512gb-1tb or higher models I'd assume would last even longer with more space to reallocate to.

[Obioban]

Edit: you can boot ARM Macs from external drives still:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/01/03/how-to-boot-an-apple-silicon-mac-from-an-external-drive

 

The SSD wear issue at the beginning was a reporting glitch-- not actual use. That glitch has since been corrected, and no premature wear occurred as a result of it.

For giggles, my M1 Air's drive stats. I bought the computer in November, 2020.

 

 

So, in 20 months, I have used 2% of the drive health. At that rate, the drive will be used up in 83 years. I don't think it'll be the limiting factor in the computer's useful life. My M1 has a 256gb HD, so it is aging out at the fastest possible rate of all laptops they sell (less bits to spread the writes over). 

 

Extrapolating from my drive wear, the 256gb model can absorb 1.5 petabytes (1,500,000 gigabytes!) of data before it is cycled out. This should scale linearly with storage space, so the 512 model can absorb 3 petabytes (~1,000,000 4K movies), the 1tb model can absorb 6 petabytes, and the 2tb model can absorb 12 petabytes (12,000,000 gigabytes). The quantity of MacBooks that are going to ever encounter drive wear based failure that is a tiny percent of a tiny percent of a tiny percent.

 

TLDR: people aren't talking about drive wear because it won't be the lifespan limiting failure in 99.9999% of the computers they sell.

[Brian McKee]

Just now, NinJake said:

I'd wager 90-95% (or even closer to 99%) of mac users will end up buying a new device before this becomes a problem, or will simply never encounter a failing ssd throughout the lifespan of the device.

 

Only time will tell, but I've deployed numerous machines with the cheapest ssd's money can buy that get used heavily, and written, re-written every restart as there's a "master OS state" that gets loaded back after each reboot and have not had any of the ssd's fail. These machines are at a business that's open 6 days a week ~12 hours a day, so quite a lot of use.

Yah but your average SSD deployed to a windows or linux machine won't undergo the same level of wear as these base model macs will. Even if we ignore the absolutely ABSURD levels of wear these machines were seeing at launch they're still being hit at above average rates that you would be used to. Worse is for any base m1 machine with 8 gigs of ram and 256gb of storage.

 

And I'm unsure what you're talking about. Most mac users use their machines longer than any other users I know. Most people I know who bought their macbooks new used them or continue to use them for many years. This will become a big issue because there are just no solutions to fix these devices. They will be literal bricks.

[Brian McKee]

2 minutes ago, Obioban said:

The SSD wear issue at the beginning was a reporting glitch-- not actual use.

 

[Obioban]

Also, you can boot ARM Macs from external drives still:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/01/03/how-to-boot-an-apple-silicon-mac-from-an-external-drive

[Obioban]

2 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

 

Well, if it's in a tweet, it must be true, amirite?

 

Edit: I bought my M1 air on launch day. If that bug was real (it wasn't but for fun we'll pretend it was) then my 2% disk life used includes that massive disk writing period-- so the 83 years of life remaining is a vast underestimate -- much more than 83 years of SSD life ahead of me before drive wear becomes an issue!

[NinJake]

We'll have to see how they hold up over time. I ended up picking up my first mac device ever last year. (2020 m1 mac with 16gb memory and 1tb storage) Use it as my portable computer and for the adobe suite. (Premiere, photoshop, lightroom) and some light audio work. It definitely gets hit with the most data of me offloading videos/pictures to over and over, but once again, I'm doubting the ssd will end up failing before I trade it in or have something else fail on the laptop.

 

If I get 5+ years on any device I'm happy and that's what I normally "account" for whether it's personal use or business (if business I actually say 3+ years for mobile devices like laptops, but they have been lasting a lot longer these days compared to 10 years ago)

 

I haven't looked into your particular idea of booting from external devices, but even in the event that a ssd fails... I would assume I could just have it replaced at a shop, no?

[Brian McKee]

4 minutes ago, Obioban said:

Also, you can boot ARM Macs from external drives still:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/01/03/how-to-boot-an-apple-silicon-mac-from-an-external-drive

I'm almost positive the main SSD needs to be functional to boot. Though obviously this is useful for a device like the mac mini to prevent the main nand chips from ever receiving wear.

[Brian McKee]

1 minute ago, NinJake said:

I haven't looked into your particular idea of booting from external devices, but even in the event that a ssd fails... I would assume I could just have it replaced at a shop, no?

The nand flash is soldered straight to the board so no you can't just replace it. I mean unless apple makes the nand available which of course they won't.

[NinJake]

1 minute ago, Brian McKee said:

The nand flash is soldered straight to the board so no you can't just replace it. I mean unless apple makes the nand available which of course they won't.

But in the event my ssd fails (which I still doubt I'd encounter), couldn't I just take it to an apple store and have them fix it?

 

Sure, it doesn't have the same "fix it yourself" deal that most machines have, but I'd assume it'd still be possible to get fixed, even if you're not the one fixing it.

[Brian McKee]

5 minutes ago, NinJake said:

But in the event my ssd fails (which I still doubt I'd encounter), couldn't I just take it to an apple store and have them fix it?

 

Sure, it doesn't have the same "fix it yourself" deal that most machines have, but I'd assume it'd still be possible to get fixed, even if you're not the one fixing it.

They'll quote you for a logic board repair which in all likelyhood will cost more than the value of your device. They do not perform board level repairs for customers, that is refurb only. Also never say never, nand flash can die for more reasons than just wear. Look at the 2016 macbook pros.

[NinJake]

1 minute ago, Brian McKee said:

They'll quote you for a logic board repair which in all likelyhood will cost more than the value of your device. They do not perform board level repairs for customers, that is refurb only.

Meh, as I've stated... first mac device for myself and I got it with my stimulus check. It has been solid and the battery life it outstanding. For my use it's been a fun learning experience as I've never dealt with the MacOS before.

 

At the end of the day, I understand your woes, but I still don't think that's something to be concerned about as much as you're making it out to seem. However if that point alone has swayed you away from trying a m1 (or m2) system out, that's totally valid.

[jaslion]

18 hours ago, NinJake said:

But in the event my ssd fails (which I still doubt I'd encounter), couldn't I just take it to an apple store and have them fix it?

 

Sure, it doesn't have the same "fix it yourself" deal that most machines have, but I'd assume it'd still be possible to get fixed, even if you're not the one fixing it.

They replace the entire motherboard which is basically the price of a new device

 

Their model is break it dispose it replace it

[Commodus]

This really isn't a gigantic issue. There is a concern (particularly if you need a working system in a hurry), but not to a level demanding outrage.

 

On top of what others have said about longevity and real-world data writes... anyone who truly cares about preserving local data has a backup no matter how easily replaceable their system drive may be. Buy a decently-sized external drive or pay for a cloud backup service. The only real hassle here is that you'll have to talk to Apple or a certified repair shop if the SSD dies, and you might be in trouble if you keep a system for so long that it's deemed completely obsolete (that is, it won't be repaired no matter how much you're willing to spend). But I'd note that many other buyers are in the same boat — most people talk to the vendor rather than prying open their laptops. They don't have the know-how, don't have the time, or just don't want to void their warranties.

[Brian McKee]

10 minutes ago, Commodus said:

This really isn't a gigantic issue. There is a concern (particularly if you need a working system in a hurry), but not to a level demanding outrage.

 

On top of what others have said about longevity and real-world data writes... anyone who truly cares about preserving local data has a backup no matter how easily replaceable their system drive may be. Buy a decently-sized external drive or pay for a cloud backup service. The only real hassle here is that you'll have to talk to Apple or a certified repair shop if the SSD dies, and you might be in trouble if you keep a system for so long that it's deemed completely obsolete (that is, it won't be repaired no matter how much you're willing to spend). But I'd note that many other buyers are in the same boat — most people talk to the vendor rather than prying open their laptops. They don't have the know-how, don't have the time, or just don't want to void their warranties.

This is about a system that would be in working order outside of the drive failing. A computer should not become a brick because of that, it's just anti consumer. All in the name of "security" I'm sure.

[Commodus]

10 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

This is about a system that would be in working order outside of the drive failing. A computer should not become a brick because of that, it's just anti consumer. All in the name of "security" I'm sure.

If your system drive fails, your system is hosed regardless of how that drive is physically installed... and like others have said, you can still boot from an external drive.

 

Apple has a few reasons: security, reduced dimensions (and thus thinner designs/larger batteries), ease of manufacturing. There are elements of it that are anti-consumer or more for the company's sake than yours, but I wouldn't characterize Apple as a dastardly villain that removes expandability purely out of greed or spite.

[Brian McKee]

4 minutes ago, Commodus said:

If your system drive fails, your system is hosed regardless of how that drive is physically installed... and like others have said, you can still boot from an external drive.

If the drive is hosed you can not, I'm 99% sure the computer will be unbootable if the main drive is dead even if you attempt to boot off an external.

[hishnash]

On 7/29/2022 at 4:53 AM, Brian McKee said:

If the drive is hosed you can not, I'm 99% sure the computer will be unbootable if the main drive is dead even if you attempt to boot off an external.

Current if you fully kill then yes you need to replace the NAND dies and re-flash the firmware. (apple provides the software to do this).

However the only readable way your going to fully kill the drive is if it has an electrical short since ware and tear on the drive will not happen int he sectors being used to store the firmware as these sectors are only ever written to during firmware upgrades (so almost never). 

You can were and tear down the rest o the drive but the firmware *and read only recovery partitions (there are 2 levels of these)* will still load without issue and thus you can then boot any other drive you like. 

It is worth noting even with a regular NVMe drive if that fails due to a short you almost certainly will also have killed either you mother board chipset or cpu and the data lines from the drive run (unprotected) directly to one of these chips depending on the boards configuration.  So the situation were these NAND dies die out right and thus mean your system cant boot at all will also apply to any system using regular NVMe drives as the other parts of your board will be dead. 

[hishnash]

On 7/28/2022 at 8:15 AM, Brian McKee said:

The nand flash is soldered straight to the board so no you can't just replace it. I mean unless apple makes the nand available which of course they won't.

The NAND apple uses is of the shelf from third party vendors it is not designed by apple or made bespoke for apple they use regular NAND dies from all the major vendors.  Apple do provide the need to software tools to re-progream the ssd controllers so when you do replace the NAND you can re-init the system (unlike almost any other SSD controller vendor) 

[hishnash]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:46 AM, Brian McKee said:

This is of course not even including the heavily worn units near launch when the lower spec'd units were getting over 3 terabytes of wear on their ssds per day making buying a used unit just an absolute time bomb.

The were reporting was a bug in the software that reads the data, turns out there is not public standard that you must comply with when providing SMART data, it is upto the tool that reads that data to correctly figure out what units the raw bits you stream back refuse to. If a bit of software is reading SMART data and it does not know the SSD controle vendor it will make a guess as what the number 42 means (and will always be wrong). 

In fact good tools that read SMART data provide the raw number turned from the drive typically as `Data Units Written` and then after that provide a best guess as to what that means, that unit it reports is a best guess and you will find for un-known SSD controls (such as apples) different applications will make different guesses as to what the `units` of the `Data Units` means (is it bits? its it bytes? is it pages?... is it something completely different ...).  

for example Kingston SEDC1000H considers 1 Data Units to be 512 Bytes.. if I use that number against the smart data I get from the SSD on my M1 Max then it would have only written 13 GB. (hint that is a little low)..!  

In summary unless the tool you are using and be configured to support your SSD controller then the bytes written and bytes read numbers are just utter garbage.  And surprise surprise non of the existing SMART tools were configured of the M1 SSD controller when the M1 shipped. 

[Brian McKee]

3 hours ago, hishnash said:

However the only readable way your going to fully kill the drive is if it has an electrical short since ware and tear on the drive will not happen int he sectors being used to store the firmware as these sectors are only ever written to during firmware upgrades (so almost never).

Not so sure about this with apple's track record. Has happened before.

[Brian McKee]

3 hours ago, hishnash said:

The NAND apple uses is of the shelf from third party vendors it is not designed by apple or made bespoke for apple they use regular NAND dies from all the major vendors.  Apple do provide the need to software tools to re-progream the ssd controllers so when you do replace the NAND you can re-init the system (unlike almost any other SSD controller vendor) 

Ok I'll wait for where you source that part to fix it.

[SprinkledDount]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:46 PM, Brian McKee said:

However doing my research as I (was) planning on purchasing an M1 device leads me to find out that this is no longer a feature with their ARM based systems.

Where did you find this research? Through what you have posted in this thread it sounds as if you have first hand knowledge. Are you just running off of your own assumptions and denying people who tel you other wise?

[hishnash]

8 hours ago, Brian McKee said:

Ok I'll wait for where you source that part to fix it.

Any components parts vendor selling NAND stocks these parts. It is off the shelf NAND, as easy to buy as a capacitor (just more expensive). 
 

8 hours ago, Brian McKee said:

Not so sure about this with apple's track record. Has happened before.

No this is just how NAND works if you don't write to a sector much it does not were out there is nothing apple can do to make it were out without being written to and they are not writing to theses sceptres unless your doing a firmware upgrade.   
 

From your comments you seem to have already decided everything is bad without considering what is really going on. 

 

4 hours ago, SprinkledDount said:

Where did you find this research? Through what you have posted in this thread it sounds as if you have first hand knowledge. Are you just running off of your own assumptions and denying people who tel you other wise?

He is correct if the NAND is fully dead (not worn out) the system will not boot since the firmware is loaded on the NAND. However that is fully dead NAND does not happen through usage fully dead NAND happens if you have an electrical short and if you have an electrical short other parts of your board will also be dead. Even if apple used seperate NAND for storing the firmware that NAND would be just as likly to suffer an electrical short killing the NAND.  The regions of the NAND used to store the pre-boot firmware and recovery partitions is not exactly written to often so will not suffer the wear damage even if the OS partitions do so you will always be able to load this firmware and recovery images even if the rest of the SSD is toast (as this data is read only).