You're setting up a distro for someone who's never owned a computer

[Ultraforce]

On 1/16/2022 at 10:28 AM, mamamia88 said:

What desktop do you start them with and what distro? I'm thinking of doing a side hustle for fun where I buy old computer gizmos and sell them to kids or people who can't afford the absolute greatest. Thinking like old dells with 4th gen i5s or higher 8-16gb of ram, and a 250gb ssd under $150. KDE is too convoluted,cinnamon is pretty good, gnome i'm not sure i would give a new user or maybe i would?  

If it's for people who have never touched a computer before I don't know if KDE would be too convoluted since they would have no real frame of reference. If they've used a phone before something with Gnome might be good but if there's no experience at all whatsoever I feel like Fedora or another one that's known for security and stability would be a good idea and if you are making a business out of it you should just on your end have stuff customized so there's a web browser you think people will have an easy time using and maybe even try and create a read me or tutorial. I bet that I wouldn't have had such a bad feeling about fedora if it wasn't for it being my first time using something other then Windows and the class instructions were for using a terminal based text editor while not actually knowing anything other than some IDEs and never using something designed solely to be interacted with through keyboard.

 

If you expect though them to be trying out all sorts of stuff I imagine either KDE or gnome desktop environment with something debian based that has a good GUI package manager. Just since sudo apt is the most likely thing they will find if they google how to do x in linux.

[Giganthrax]

I'm guessing your target audience is mostly going to be interested in browsing the web, listening to music on spotify/youtube, watching netflix, etc.

 

In that case, I'd just install Neverware Cloudready on the PCs. This is an open source version of ChromeOS, with all the same limitations and the same simplistic and modern-looking design. You can't find a simpler OS for a beginner than that, and it's really fast too. 

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:28 AM, mamamia88 said:

What desktop do you start them with and what distro? I'm thinking of doing a side hustle for fun where I buy old computer gizmos and sell them to kids or people who can't afford the absolute greatest. Thinking like old dells with 4th gen i5s or higher 8-16gb of ram, and a 250gb ssd under $150. KDE is too convoluted,cinnamon is pretty good, gnome i'm not sure i would give a new user or maybe i would?  

KDE is the best option but if you insist go for linux mint and later use bedrocklinux to integrate arch or just migrate to manjaro cinnamon or start with it in the first. It is really pleasnt to use manjaro a blance between hardcore and entry. So Linux Mint or Manjaro

[TorC]

As @Giganthraxstated, that Neverware is probably the easiest answer.  Since it is now owned by g00gle, it may not be the best, privacy-wise.
Perhaps take a look at Gecko linux for an alternative that may be easily customized -- -- as another suggestion.  Many Static and Rolling releases are available.  I am impressed with its ease of usage.

[BasicWombat]

On 1/17/2022 at 2:28 AM, mamamia88 said:

What desktop do you start them with and what distro?

Windows. In this world, if you setup someone up, don't setup them up to fail.

If they need help and you're not around, who do they turn to? The local computer shop is going to tell them to install Windows.

If they go to work, they're likely to have Windows there. 

Why make their lives harder for just using Linux? It's not worth it for their sake.

 

Speaking from someone who has done this already.

[Ultraforce]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:39 AM, fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead said:

KDE is the best option but if you insist go for linux mint and later use bedrocklinux to integrate arch or just migrate to manjaro cinnamon or start with it in the first. It is really pleasnt to use manjaro a blance between hardcore and entry. So Linux Mint or Manjaro

 

On 1/27/2022 at 11:55 AM, TorC said:

As @Giganthraxstated, that Neverware is probably the easiest answer.  Since it is now owned by g00gle, it may not be the best, privacy-wise.
Perhaps take a look at Gecko linux for an alternative that may be easily customized -- -- as another suggestion.  Many Static and Rolling releases are available.  I am impressed with its ease of usage.

I wonder would maybe Fedora SOAS which uses the Sugar Learning Platform or just pure Sugar maybe be a good option.

 

On 2/9/2022 at 4:37 AM, BasicWombat said:

Windows. In this world, if you setup someone up, don't setup them up to fail.

If they need help and you're not around, who do they turn to? The local computer shop is going to tell them to install Windows.

If they go to work, they're likely to have Windows there. 

Why make their lives harder for just using Linux? It's not worth it for their sake.

 

Speaking from someone who has done this already.

I will say possibly I was a weirdo but even though I was familiar with windows from the computer in kindergarten I found the Sugar desktop environment that was used by the one laptop per child program as really easy and personally think while there were issues with it on that platform like just being quite slow and feeling weird when one is familiar with folders and the concept of seeing multiple instances of the program that it is inherently really simple specifically designed for kids and really isn't setting up for failure at all other than potentially making it be harder to transition to Windows or Mac then some other options might be. Here's an example of what Sugar UI's home view is.

[BasicWombat]

Just now, Ultraforce said:

[Ultraforce]

Just now, BasicWombat said:

Oh it's definitely in many ways weird and ugly but it's very simple and has been developed for 15 years that was initially set up for an operating system and graphical user interface for a device meant to be for people who had never used a computer or phone before.

[RollyShed]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:37 PM, BasicWombat said:

Windows. In this world, if you setup someone up, don't setup them up to fail.

Windows? No.

 

I've set up someone who hadn't used computers before. It was about 3 years ago. He drops round occasionally but not with a computer problem. His computer just keeps going.

 

One early thing he did do was set up a spreadsheet for his CD collection, which draw was what in. Yes, an office suite comes by default, no need to buy one. Yes, some suggestions about how columns should be widened if long names are entered but that's the same if you were using Windows and had bought Office.

 

Another user used to computers simply moved across from Windows one day, Linux the next and carried on, financial reports, emails etc., etc. with no problems.

 

I'd recommend Linux Mint Cinnamon. Easy to set up and it has everything included, web browser, office suite, plays everything, reads everything. No virus problems.

[BasicWombat]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:16 PM, RollyShed said:

Windows? No.

 

I've set up someone who hadn't used computers before. It was about 3 years ago. He drops round occasionally but not with a computer problem. His computer just keeps going.

 

One early thing he did do was set up a spreadsheet for his CD collection, which draw was what in. Yes, an office suite comes by default, no need to buy one. Yes, some suggestions about how columns should be widened if long names are entered but that's the same if you were using Windows and had bought Office.

 

Another user used to computers simply moved across from Windows one day, Linux the next and carried on, financial reports, emails etc., etc. with no problems.

 

I'd recommend Linux Mint Cinnamon. Easy to set up and it has everything included, web browser, office suite, plays everything, reads everything. No virus problems.

Windows? Yes.

Everyone uses Windows and I think if you're starting someone out with a computer then start them with something that will be familiar to others as well. In your case sure you were around to help, but this isn't the case for everyone.

 

Windows comes with the Web version of Office for free which will often be enough for people.

I'm not against Linux and I think it's a solid OS in the right use cases, but it's not for everyone and definitely not ready for mainstream.

[RollyShed]

10 hours ago, BasicWombat said:

Everyone uses Windows and I think if you're starting someone out with a computer then start them with something that will be familiar to others as well. In your case sure you were around to help, but this isn't the case for everyone.

 

Windows comes with the Web version of Office for free which will often be enough for people.

I'm not against Linux and I think it's a solid OS in the right use cases, but it's not for everyone and definitely not ready for mainstream.

The thread is about someone knowledgeable setting up a computer for someone who hasn't used one. The first sentence above "start them with something that will be familiar" does not apply.

 

Not everyone uses Windows. At our Shed, probably 1/4 use Linux and a few using Apple and most of the rest using Android (phones).

 

Windows web Office, can you edit PDFs with it? No? OK load LibreOffice as it runs on Everything.

 

Though you say you are not against Linux, what experience have you had with it? None? A Little?

 

Last night we were visiting a friend. She has Windows and spends money regularly for antivirus etc. and a technician to do it. She listens to Youtube videos a lot. Did she have "ublock origin" on her browser? No. Could she down load any Youtubes? No. And if downloaded where is the Music folder? OK lets put one into C drive and a link on the desktop. I gave up wasting time as nothing was logical. Yes I've sorted out Windows at times but this was the ultimate of a bad setup.

 

If she had Linux setup by someone who knows could she do what she wants? Yes and easily as everything would be obvious even with a standard installation.

 

Basically it does come down to the person setting things up knowing what to teach someone who knows nothing PLUS setting things up so it is obvious what to do.

[Ultraforce]

3 hours ago, RollyShed said:

The thread is about someone knowledgeable setting up a computer for someone who hasn't used one. The first sentence above "start them with something that will be familiar" does not apply.

 

Not everyone uses Windows. At our Shed, probably 1/4 use Linux and a few using Apple and most of the rest using Android (phones).

 

Windows web Office, can you edit PDFs with it? No? OK load LibreOffice as it runs on Everything.

 

Though you say you are not against Linux, what experience have you had with it? None? A Little?

 

Last night we were visiting a friend. She has Windows and spends money regularly for antivirus etc. and a technician to do it. She listens to Youtube videos a lot. Did she have "ublock origin" on her browser? No. Could she down load any Youtubes? No. And if downloaded where is the Music folder? OK lets put one into C drive and a link on the desktop. I gave up wasting time as nothing was logical. Yes I've sorted out Windows at times but this was the ultimate of a bad setup.

 

If she had Linux setup by someone who knows could she do what she wants? Yes and easily as everything would be obvious even with a standard installation.

 

Basically it does come down to the person setting things up knowing what to teach someone who knows nothing PLUS setting things up so it is obvious what to do.

I definitely agree that linux mint cinammon is probably a good choice though I do wonder if there are other Linux Distros/Desktop environments that do a good job at being simple and user friendly that come prepackaged with the stuff someone with no experience would probably need of text editor, powerpoint, web browser, pictures, music/video player, and maybe spreadsheets.

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, Ultraforce said:

I definitely agree that linux mint cinammon is probably a good choice though I do wonder if there are other Linux Distros/Desktop environments that do a good job at being simple and user friendly that come prepackaged with the stuff someone with no experience would probably need of text editor, powerpoint, web browser, pictures, music/video player, and maybe spreadsheets.

There is a limit to how simple anything can be. There must be an OFF/ON switch somewhere, and a keyboard, and usually a mouse with a couple of buttons.

 

Just what could be simpler than Linux Mint Cinnamon if set up the right way and it is very much there already by default. I do some simple mods to the desktop, add links to Documents, Pictures, Videos. Point out that Firefox, Write, Calc and Text Editor are in the Panel (Task Bar). I can't see how anything could be simpler.

 

Those items, text editor, powerpoint, web browser (Firefox), pictures, music/video player (Celluloid), and spreadsheets are exactly what comes by default.

 

It is then easy to add an audio editor (Audacity) if wanted, another web browser or two (Chromium, Brave, Vivaldi), and lots of other things if they would have a use for them.

 

LibreOffice has Powerpoint, spreadsheets (Calc), documents (Write, it will open everything), database, Draw (which can edit PDFs), etc.

 

I always have the Text Editor on the Panel (Task Bar) ready to use. If a password is ever needed (banking?), type it in and then, when it is correct, you can see it is correct and not just a row of dots, copy & paste. Quite often, when doing a reply to an email, I'll type one up, edit when more ideas come and finally copy & paste into an email to send.

 

Maybe you need to burn a USB stick and bootup on it to see just what is being suggested.

[Ultraforce]

28 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

There is a limit to how simple anything can be. There must be an OFF/ON switch somewhere, and a keyboard, and usually a mouse with a couple of buttons.

 

Just what could be simpler than Linux Mint Cinnamon if set up the right way and it is very much there already by default. I do some simple mods to the desktop, add links to Documents, Pictures, Videos. Point out that Firefox, Write, Calc and Text Editor are in the Panel (Task Bar). I can't see how anything could be simpler.

 

Those items, text editor, powerpoint, web browser (Firefox), pictures, music/video player (Celluloid), and spreadsheets are exactly what comes by default.

 

It is then easy to add an audio editor (Audacity) if wanted, another web browser or two (Chromium, Brave, Vivaldi), and lots of other things if they would have a use for them.

 

LibreOffice has Powerpoint, spreadsheets (Calc), documents (Write, it will open everything), database, Draw (which can edit PDFs), etc.

 

I always have the Text Editor on the Panel (Task Bar) ready to use. If a password is ever needed (banking?), type it in and then, when it is correct, you can see it is correct and not just a row of dots, copy & paste. Quite often, when doing a reply to an email, I'll type one up, edit when more ideas come and finally copy & paste into an email to send.

 

Maybe you need to burn a USB stick and bootup on it to see just what is being suggested.

Maybe I should since my experience with linux has been Seedlabs 2.0 Ubuntu , some fedora where I don't know whisch desktop environment they went with for an operating systems class, Pop!_OS, Manjaro KDE and Kubuntu with the experience when I was a little kid with OLPC which is where the simplest kind of desktop I can think of comes from as it has all of that in a very simplistic home view making it almost a windows manager but still having some of the options you need for a desktop environment such as changing volume and similar settings.

[Ultraforce]

Just now, Ultraforce said:

Maybe I should since my experience with linux has been Seedlabs 2.0 Ubuntu , some fedora where I don't know whisch desktop environment they went with for an operating systems class, Pop!_OS, Manjaro KDE and Kubuntu with the experience when I was a little kid with OLPC which is where the simplest kind of desktop I can think of comes from as it has all of that in a very simplistic home view making it almost a windows manager but still having some of the options you need for a desktop environment such as changing volume and similar settings.

Sugar is the desktop environment I was talking about for the thing where as a kid I used OLPC. the Distro that was used isn't really active any more but the desktop environment is still actively used and the organization that develops it participates in events.

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, Ultraforce said:

Sugar is the desktop environment I was talking about for the thing where as a kid I used OLPC. the Distro that was used isn't really active any more but the desktop environment is still actively used and the organization that develops it participates in events.

I can't quite see where "One Laptop per Child (OLPC)" comes into it.

 

There is simple such as a blank screen and there is simple such as everything needed is obvious. The "bits behind the screen", as they say, can be complex to get the simple to use finished product.

This is where Mint Cinnamon wins. It is already well set up for options and can be set up easily for additional functions.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:37 AM, BasicWombat said:

Windows. In this world, if you setup someone up, don't setup them up to fail.

If they need help and you're not around, who do they turn to? The local computer shop is going to tell them to install Windows.

If they go to work, they're likely to have Windows there. 

Why make their lives harder for just using Linux? It's not worth it for their sake.

 

Speaking from someone who has done this already.

If you were right, Chromebooks would have been a commercial failure. Yet here we are. Even a castrated version of Linux where you basically cannot do anything outside the browser without dancing with a tambourine is perfectly good for everything that the vast majority of people need to use their computers for. And you get an acceptable performance even on $200 machines which would be just unusable on Windows.

[RollyShed]

As Alexeygridnev1993 says, Chromebooks are not Windows. Here a lot of schools insist on their pupils using Chromebooks and they use a variant of Linux.

 

Knowing computers reasonably well, I could not get something sensible out of a friend's Windows computer the other day. An hour or two maybe but we're talking easy and logical which it definitely wasn't.

[Giganthrax]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:37 AM, BasicWombat said:

Windows. In this world, if you setup someone up, don't setup them up to fail.

If they need help and you're not around, who do they turn to? The local computer shop is going to tell them to install Windows.

If they go to work, they're likely to have Windows there. 

Why make their lives harder for just using Linux? It's not worth it for their sake.

 

Speaking from someone who has done this already.

Unfortunately, Windows is way too prone to viruses and malware when used by someone who doesn't know what they're doign.

 

Unless you specifically strip administrator privileges from the account they will be using (in which case you're mildly-to-severly gimping their ability to use the computer you set up for them), it's almost inevitable that they will install some malicious or virus-like program that will cause all sorts of problems.

 

If you want to give your hypothetical tech noob friend a mainstream, yet foolproof OS, I'd say steer clear of Windows and just give them a Mac or even a Chromebook. 

[Dat Guy]

1 hour ago, Giganthrax said:

Windows is way too prone to viruses and malware when used by someone who doesn't know what they're doign.

 

All systems are way too prone to viruses and malware when used by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

[Giganthrax]

16 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

 

All systems are way too prone to viruses and malware when used by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

I beg to differ. There's a reason why people don't get nearly as many viruses on their phones, Macs, or Chromebooks as they do on Windows.

 

In addition to there being fewer viruses/malware made for these systems, the locked-down nature of these OSes significantly reduces the risk. 

[Dat Guy]

11 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

There's a reason why people don't get nearly as many viruses on their phones, Macs, or Chromebooks as they do on Windows.

 

You mean the fact that Windows is the only system in your list that lets its users install any software on their computer?

Because if you either restrict Windows to the official software repositories (Microsoft Store and winget) or disable macOS's security checks, the overall malware situation is pretty similar.

 

11 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

In addition to there being fewer viruses/malware made for these system

 

One is enough. Apple itself acknowledges that.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/19/craig-federighi-mac-malware-problem/

 

So if locking down a system is good for your security, why is there such a small amount of OpenBSD malware?

[Alexeygridnev1993]

3 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

You mean the fact that Windows is the only system in your list that lets its users install any software on their computer?

No one stops you from installing whatever obscure pieces of software on your Linux or Mac. It's just that Linux and Mac users don't have a habit of doing so, as for both the natural instinct is to look the software in the trusted sources rather than random executables.

[Dat Guy]

So the problem is not that "Windows is insecure", the problem is that "there are dumb users". Thank you for agreeing with the point I was trying to make.

[RollyShed]

4 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

 

All systems are way too prone to viruses and malware when used by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

No.

 

What instances do you know of of a Linux system suffering from a virus?

Scams via email are a different thing.

To get things to install on Linux you have to know how. A new user of the type described is unlikely to know there are things that can be installed and not know where to get them.