Apple vs Epic lawsuit stayed by higher Appeals court

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

No, from a legal standpoint, a PC and a game console are both computers, and are closer to each other than a Mobile phone is.

 

Citation?

 

 

Because I can assure you a damn site more people moved to smartphones from PC's for their personal computational needs than they did from consoles.

 

EDIT:  I mean to try and claim computers and consoles are closer than computers and smart phones as far as consumer end use goes requires you ignore what they are used for and concentrate solely on who makes the hardware and what architecture it specifically is.    No consumer cares if their phone is running x86 or arm, they want to be able to install apps and surf the web.  Funnily enough just like they did with a desktop.

[Kisai]

43 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Citation?

 

 

Because I can assure you a damn site more people moved to smartphones from PC's for their personal computational needs than they did from consoles.

 

EDIT:  I mean to try and claim computers and consoles are closer than computers and smart phones as far as consumer end use goes requires you ignore what they are used for and concentrate solely on who makes the hardware and what architecture it specifically is.    No consumer cares if their phone is running x86 or arm, they want to be able to install apps and surf the web.  Funnily enough just like they did with a desktop.

Okay, using very simple terminology:

 

A computer has a monitor/television, and an input controller (keyboard/mouse/joystick).

 

Literately every game console out there has a keyboard peripheral, including things you didn't think had one like the Famicom and Gameboy. There is nothing that makes a game console legally different from PC computer, because legally they are defined as computers, and "games" are defined as software.

[Kronoton]

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

My point is that it would be very disingenuous for a court to take that position when it is clearly more like a PC than a game console. 

Remmeber this ?

 

I stand by my opinion that anyone arguing that a console is NOT a computer (in a legal sense) is either clueless about tech or dishonest and hoping for a clueless judge.

[Fasterthannothing]

2 hours ago, hishnash said:

Not for games that are distributed through the play store (and not epic is sueing google since they themselves don't think side loading is good after so many hacked versions of fortnight with malware were shared online leading to many users be scared of downloading fortnight from any source)

 

Incorrect Google actually now allows third party payments in the Google play store 

 

https://www.engadget.com/google-play-store-alternate-payment-south-korea-134255092.html?guccounter=1

 

 

 

[pas008]

58 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Okay, using very simple terminology:

 

A computer has a monitor/television, and an input controller (keyboard/mouse/joystick).

 

Literately every game console out there has a keyboard peripheral, including things you didn't think had one like the Famicom and Gameboy. There is nothing that makes a game console legally different from PC computer, because legally they are defined as computers, and "games" are defined as software.

not sure on newer consoles but can I install autocad or solidworks or powerpoint or wordprocessing or excel or really anything work related software on a console because I can technically do all those on a phone or computer

[Kronoton]

Just now, pas008 said:

but can I install autocad

 

You could if Sony/MS/Nintendo (well that is ARM so might be a bit harder regardless) hadn't crippled the consoles to make it near impossible.

Which is the same as Apple restricting the iPhone to whatever they allow into the App store.

[pas008]

8 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

 

You could if Sony/MS/Nintendo (well that is ARM so might be a bit harder regardless) hadn't crippled the consoles to make it near impossible.

Which is the same as Apple restricting the iPhone to whatever they allow into the App store.

but the point is I can install work related software or pretty much work or manage work/books on a phone right?

[Kronoton]

The point is that someone tries to argue that those 2 things are completely different just because the manufactors apply the same method of restriction with different filters.

[HRD]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

??

 

Windows RT not supporting and not allowing are not the same thing, the enterprise version allowed it through sideloading.  The product didn't last long enough for proper support to be a thing (from either MS or developers) for any other version.  I think you are conflating why RT failed with a separate issue not yet realized in a court.

 

EDIT: also I have to point out the inconsistency when you claim RT failed because people don't like that you could only get apps from the windows store, however you are happy to claim it is the reason many buy iphones?  It seems you have highlighted again how apple users enjoy being shit on by apple but detest said same behavior from other companies.    Is their marketing really that good?

 

Also, what legalities are you referring to?   At what point has it been decreed in a court that mac OS can limit software to store only, or what about MS or even android? 

 

Again,  my point was addressing a claim made by the OP, not a claim made by lawyers.

And it's shit.  I don't care if the average user doesn't understand the implications much less if they even care, but the wider industry and consumer will lose out from such practices (as they already are) and only apple benefits.

 

 

 

 

 

You did not challenge the fact that Microsoft shipped devices running a version of Windows that does not allow side-loading. people are used to side-loading on windows and mac it is hard to change that now that is why windows rt and windows 10s failed. Craig Federighi said "today, we have a level of malware on the Mac that we don’t find acceptable and is much worse than iOS." but yet apple did not bing the ios lockdown nature to mac because mac customers will not accept it. However, ios is a locked-down OS from day one all the apps are available on the store which is not the case for mac or windows app stores, and people got used to that and accepted it. 

 

in epic vs apple, the judge said to epic "Your formulation seems to ignore the reality that customers choose an ecosystem, right? If you buy the Xbox or you buy into a variety of these particular walled-off gardens, you know that that’s what you’re buying into, and you choose to make that decision." 
also, she said "centralized app distribution and the “walled garden” approach differentiates Apple from Google. That distinction ultimately increases consumer choice by allowing users who value open distribution to purchase Android devices, while those who value security and the protection of a “walled garden” to purchase iOS devices. This, too, is a legitimate procompetitive justification."

 

 

you might argue that some average users do not know/care about side-loading and that might benefit them by lowering prices for example but for that to work consumers have to see a difference in price between buying it on android and ios. the prices are all the same. in fact, most developers who offer purchasing options on their websites do not pass down the saving to consumers. you can buy from the candy crush app or website the price is the same in fact on the website you have to pay separate tax so the price is actually higher. we can see a similar thing comparing steam and epic games store for the games that are on both stores we do not see a difference in price.

[pas008]

20 minutes ago, HRD said:

You did not challenge the fact that Microsoft shipped devices running a version of Windows that does not allow side-loading. people are used to side-loading on windows and mac it is hard to change that now that is why windows rt and windows 10s failed. Craig Federighi said "today, we have a level of malware on the Mac that we don’t find acceptable and is much worse than iOS." but yet apple did not bing the ios lockdown nature to mac because mac customers will not accept it. However, ios is a locked-down OS from day one all the apps are available on the store which is not the case for mac or windows app stores, and people got used to that and accepted it. 

 

in epic vs apple, the judge said to epic "Your formulation seems to ignore the reality that customers choose an ecosystem, right? If you buy the Xbox or you buy into a variety of these particular walled-off gardens, you know that that’s what you’re buying into, and you choose to make that decision." 
also, she said "centralized app distribution and the “walled garden” approach differentiates Apple from Google. That distinction ultimately increases consumer choice by allowing users who value open distribution to purchase Android devices, while those who value security and the protection of a “walled garden” to purchase iOS devices. This, too, is a legitimate procompetitive justification."

 

 

you might argue that some average users do not know/care about side-loading and that might benefit them by lowering prices for example but for that to work consumers have to see a difference in price between buying it on android and ios. the prices are all the same. in fact, most developers who offer purchasing options on their websites do not pass down the saving to consumers. you can buy from the candy crush app or website the price is the same in fact on the website you have to pay separate tax so the price is actually higher. we can see a similar thing comparing steam and epic games store for the games that are on both stores we do not see a difference in price.

yes we do

competitive sales and freebies

 

console is for entertainment

personal computer is versatile, many purposes especially work

which a phone does

[HRD]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

yes we do

competitive sales and freebies

 

console is for entertainment

personal computer is versatile, many purposes especially work

which a phone does

Consoles are capable at the hardware level of much more than just gaming an Xbox is capable of running windows I believe Linus did make a video on that.
 

 

even without that, you can use a console right now to call your friend or chat with him, browse the web, send emails, and more. I remember at the beginning of the pandemic people used their PlayStations to attend their online school classes in my country. So consoles are not specific hardware that can only do one thing. And even if they are specific that doesn’t change the fact that their business model is the same as the iPhone. Sony is already being sued on the same grounds as epic v apple with a lot of citations from epics’  argument.
 

A lot of people argued that the iPhone is a computer but even if we say that consoles are not computers but the phones are. There is no law saying a computer must use windows or mac business model. You can make a computer that is locked down and sell it as long as you make it clear and people know what they are getting there is no issue here.

[Kisai]

10 hours ago, pas008 said:

not sure on newer consoles but can I install autocad or solidworks or powerpoint or wordprocessing or excel or really anything work related software on a console because I can technically do all those on a phone or computer

I think you missed the obvious point.

 

You're not installing "games" you're installing "software", and "software" is what runs on phones, consoles and PC's. Given that you can use a keyboard on all of them, and use a tv/monitor on all of them, makes all three categories pretty much indistinguishable.

 

The specific software is irrelevant.

 

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, Kisai said:

Okay, using very simple terminology:

 

A computer has a monitor/television, and an input controller (keyboard/mouse/joystick).

 

Literately every game console out there has a keyboard peripheral, including things you didn't think had one like the Famicom and Gameboy. There is nothing that makes a game console legally different from PC computer, because legally they are defined as computers, and "games" are defined as software.

Still no citation and you have gone back to trying to define a personal computer by the hardware structure and not the fact it is a personal computational device for a specific end use.

 

8 hours ago, HRD said:

You did not challenge the fact that Microsoft shipped devices running a version of Windows that does not allow side-loading. people are used to side-loading on windows and mac it is hard to change that now that is why windows rt and windows 10s failed. Craig Federighi said "today, we have a level of malware on the Mac that we don’t find acceptable and is much worse than iOS." but yet apple did not bing the ios lockdown nature to mac because mac customers will not accept it. However, ios is a locked-down OS from day one all the apps are available on the store which is not the case for mac or windows app stores, and people got used to that and accepted it. 

 

in epic vs apple, the judge said to epic "Your formulation seems to ignore the reality that customers choose an ecosystem, right? If you buy the Xbox or you buy into a variety of these particular walled-off gardens, you know that that’s what you’re buying into, and you choose to make that decision." 
also, she said "centralized app distribution and the “walled garden” approach differentiates Apple from Google. That distinction ultimately increases consumer choice by allowing users who value open distribution to purchase Android devices, while those who value security and the protection of a “walled garden” to purchase iOS devices. This, too, is a legitimate procompetitive justification."

 

 

you might argue that some average users do not know/care about side-loading and that might benefit them by lowering prices for example but for that to work consumers have to see a difference in price between buying it on android and ios. the prices are all the same. in fact, most developers who offer purchasing options on their websites do not pass down the saving to consumers. you can buy from the candy crush app or website the price is the same in fact on the website you have to pay separate tax so the price is actually higher. we can see a similar thing comparing steam and epic games store for the games that are on both stores we do not see a difference in price.

I pointed out that you can sideload on windows RT and that as a product it wasn't around long enough to actually have any software ported to it.  Not supported != banned.

 

You seem to be stuck on an ideology that you can personally define a device as anything you want to make a point.  the fact still remains that A, you can only do that by ignoring many facets of smart phone use and B,  phones today are desktop replacements for many people and as such should be treated the same.

 

You are also stuck on the concept that apple appstore concerns only effect users directly,  it does not, there is a reason 67,000 developers sued apple over their appstore policies.   When developers are effected then so are consumers, whether they know it or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, Kronoton said:

Remmeber this ?

 

I stand by my opinion that anyone arguing that a console is NOT a computer (in a legal sense) is either clueless about tech or dishonest and hoping for a clueless judge.

What about it?   Artificial limitations on devices does not define what the device is.   You can call a console a personal computer and be technically correct, but if you want to use it as a legal term that governs consumer options then you are going to have to argue that point in a court and have a judge make a declaration one way or the other.

[Kisai]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Still no citation and you have gone back to trying to define a personal computer by the hardware structure and not the fact it is a personal computational device for a specific end use.

 

https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/computer/

Quote

A computer is a device that computes, often a programmable machine, which can perform a programmed list of instructions and respond to new instructions given to it. An electronic computer accepts data, manipulates data, produces results, and stores results.

 

The term is most often used to refer to the desktop and laptop computers that many people use. When referring to a desktop model, the term "computer" technically only refers to the the box that holds the computer and not the monitor, keyboard, and mouse. However, everything together may be referred to as the computer.

Legally A Computer is anything that can be programmed to run software. Your Game console, SmartTV, SmartPhone, Desktop and Laptop computer, all count.

 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Kisai said:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/computer/

Legally A Computer is anything that can be programmed to run software. Your Game console, SmartTV, SmartPhone, Desktop and Laptop computer, all count.

 

The definition you provided describes a smart phone. 

 

It is programmable, accepts data, manipulates data, produces results and stores results.

 

Thank you for proving my position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

13 minutes ago, Kisai said:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/computer/

Legally A Computer is anything that can be programmed to run software. Your Game console, SmartTV, SmartPhone, Desktop and Laptop computer, all count.

 

So when are you going to provide a citation for this:

13 hours ago, Kisai said:

 

No, from a legal standpoint, a PC and a game console are both computers, and are closer to each other than a Mobile phone is.

 

 

All I've said is the end user uses a smart phone in the same realm as a desktop more than they do a console which means they should be treated like a desktop legally, But you have outright tried to claim the opposite by using some sort of technical condition (which does not exist by your very own reference).

 

Post Edited several times for grammar

[hishnash]

12 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Incorrect Google actually now allows third party payments in the Google play store 

 

They do but not for games, google have differs rules for games. The do permit third party payments (for games) but only if you still pay google thier % cut (just the same as with Sony if you sell the game through a store Sony still take the % cut from you and how epic take the % cut if you use thier Unreal engine..) most rev share agreements work in this way not in the way apple do it. 

[Kisai]

47 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So when are you going to provide a citation for this:

 

All I've said is the end user uses a smart phone in the same realm as a desktop more than they do a console which means they should be treated like a desktop legally, But you have outright tried to claim the opposite by using some sort of technical condition (which does not exist by your very own reference).

 

Post Edited several times for grammar

No you claim was that it matters what the device is. I'm telling you that is has NEVER mattered what the device is if it has a means of being programmed and displaying the output.

 

An App store on a console and an app store on a mobile phone being locked down are no different from an app store on a pc being locked down or not. They're only software.

 

Where this legal vs technical definition matters is if the software can be changed on it, which is true for PC's, Smartphones and consoles, but is not for arcade machines, microwaves and cars.

 

No matter what I do to a microwave, it's not going to let me play Crysis on it without significantly changing how it works.

[mr moose]

21 minutes ago, Kisai said:

No you claim was that it matters what the device is. I'm telling you that is has NEVER mattered what the device is if it has a means of being programmed and displaying the output.

 

Wrong, my claim was that it is disingenuous to use the argument a phone and console are the same to defend an artificial restriction when the phone more closely resembles a desktop computer that doesn't have said restriction to the end user.

 

21 minutes ago, Kisai said:

An App store on a console and an app store on a mobile phone being locked down are no different from an app store on a pc being locked down or not. They're only software.

That argument doesn't even resolve itself.  If that was the case then there would be no issue with MS locking all windows software to the MS store.  If you can't see the issue with that then you are not looking.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Where this legal vs technical definition matters is if the software can be changed on it, which is true for PC's, Smartphones and consoles, but is not for arcade machines, microwaves and cars.

You buy an arcade machine or microwave you are knowingly buying a single use product,  you know you are not going to install software on either.    That point is irrelevant.  You are simply ignoring the fact that smart phones are bought with the intention to use them as desktops were once used. 

 

21 minutes ago, Kisai said:

No matter what I do to a microwave, it's not going to let me play Crysis on it without significantly changing how it works.

And more pointless sentences.   This has nothing to do with your claims about consoles and smart phones.

 

[Kronoton]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

Wrong, my claim was that it is disingenuous to use the argument a phone and console are the same to defend an artificial restriction when the phone more closely resembles a desktop computer that doesn't have said restriction to the end user.

 

Erm.... XBOX/Ps4/5 are just AMD based PCs with a locked down custom firmware. Find a way to "root" these and nothing is stopping you from running pretty much any x86 SW on it.

 

Smartphones are a completely different kind of device and while it may be possible to use some of them as desktop replacements it will always be cumbersome.

 

-> that whole line of argument is pure nonsense 

-> -> epic going after Apple but not SONY/MS/Nintendo is another strike in showing how dishonest they are about their motivations/goals in this case

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

 

Erm.... XBOX/Ps4/5 are just AMD based PCs with a locked down custom firmware. Find a way to "root" these and nothing is stopping you from running pretty much any x86 SW on it.

 

Smartphones are a completely different kind of device and while it may be possible to use some of them as desktop replacements it will always be cumbersome.

 

-> that whole line of argument is pure nonsense 

-> -> epic going after Apple but not SONY/MS/Nintendo is another strike in showing how dishonest they are about their motivations/goals in this case

see here:

23 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Citation?

 

 

Because I can assure you a damn site more people moved to smartphones from PC's for their personal computational needs than they did from consoles.

 

EDIT:  I mean to try and claim computers and consoles are closer than computers and smart phones as far as consumer end use goes requires you ignore what they are used for and concentrate solely on who makes the hardware and what architecture it specifically is.    No consumer cares if their phone is running x86 or arm, they want to be able to install apps and surf the web.  Funnily enough just like they did with a desktop.

 

 

A computer is not defined as a computer by what the processor architecture is.  In fact trying to pretend phones are not computers because they use ARM processors and that consoles are more like computers because they typically run similar x86 hardware doesn't mean anything, are we to assume now apple runs the M! arm that they are not computers?.    Even Kisai realized after posting his definition of what a computer legally is that smart phones are just as much computers as desktops, laptops or consoles. 

 

But in end use, advertising and what majority of end users buy a smart phone for is not to play games like on a console but to replace their desktop.   It doesn't mater if that is little more than ebay/amazon and facebook, that is why they are bought and how they are used.    Do you see the problem with the argument now?

[Kronoton]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

  Do you see the problem with the argument now?

What argument exactly?

 

They are all computers, they are all sold and bought not rented out so the rightful owner should be the only one deciding what SW to run on them.

Epic going after only one kind of looked down devices while ignoring the other shows that they are dishonest about the whole thing.

 

Enter people trying to nitpick how smartphones are "more computers" than consoles.

[mr moose]

45 minutes ago, Kronoton said:

What argument exactly?

 

They are all computers, they are all sold and bought not rented out so the rightful owner should be the only one deciding what SW to run on them.

Epic going after only one kind of looked down devices while ignoring the other shows that they are dishonest about the whole thing.

 

Enter people trying to nitpick how smartphones are "more computers" than consoles.

I don't think you have been following the thread.

 

On two occasions people have tried to claim that smart phones more closely resemble consoles both legally and in end use than they do traditional PC's.   I have merely pointed out that neither are true,  smart phones are just as much computers like PC's and they are more like computers as far as the typical end use goes.

 

It's not my fault you think the definition of a computer rests on the type of processor nor is it my fault you can't understand the importance of the market replacing desktops with smart phones. 

 

The fact that you think pointing out the largest end use of smart phones is "nitpicking" tells me you have no desire to understand.

[Kronoton]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

it my fault you can't understand the importance of the market replacing desktops with smart phones. 

 

Why would (or should) that matter?

 

Its almost the same in terms of HW, it is the same business model with very similar results.

And they clearly should be viewed as the same in the context of the original topic of this thread.

 

So sure more people are doing non game stuff on phones compared to consoles, but that just isn't argument why it would be  o.k. to treat them differently.