This is NOT going Well… Linux Gaming Challenge Pt.2

[Bramimond]

1 hour ago, Kilrah said:

They're trying to answer the question "is linux suitable as an OS for the random gamer"

Not random. They're trying to see if it works for Windows gamers.

If you can come in with a fresh mind and picking games based on compatibility a random gamer can have a better time with Linux than one trying to make games they have played on Windows work.

 

Kinda like you cannot keep playing all your games when switching to PS5 from PC or the other way around. It's just that it isn't clear cut which games will even work, since making games work is an ongoing effort in the LinuxCommunity™. (There is no such thing, just like Atheism isn't a religion.)

 

 

I also doubt anyone is advertising Linux as ready for Windows games. It's not. Gaming is an   afterthought on Linux. But Linux users are like the vegans of operating system users. They found something they find superior to what everyone else does and try to advertise that at any given chance.

[mamamia88]

59 minutes ago, sap said:

Related to Linus' weird complaint about Arch not having apt-get, apparently Garuda Linux (based on Arch) this whole time has already had an alias for apt-get that brings you to the man page for pacman

 

https://gitlab.com/garuda-linux/themes-and-settings/settings/garuda-bash-config/-/blob/main/bashrc#L41

Yeah they have one for yay too. Even though yay doesn't appear installed by default. Garuda actually seems like it would be perfect for new gamers seeing how the entire games settings are all in one place. but, I ditched it for generic arch after awhile cause the updates seemed slow and was bored

[atericparker]

1 hour ago, mamamia88 said:

Yeah they have one for yay too. Even though yay doesn't appear installed by default. Garuda actually seems like it would be perfect for new gamers seeing how the entire games settings are all in one place. but, I ditched it for generic arch after awhile cause the updates seemed slow and was bored

On the same subject, I think I figured out what the error Linus had was. I typed apt into my Mac out of curiosity and it actually throws a java error because the command goes to https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/apt/GettingStarted.html. 

[Nayr438]

15 minutes ago, atericparker said:

On the same subject, I think I figured out what the error Linus had was. I typed apt into my Mac out of curiosity and it actually throws a java error because the command goes to https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/apt/GettingStarted.html. 

Depending on what is setup and how its setup, he may be getting package suggestions for unknown commands. In my Personal Setup, if you try to use apt in the terminal it will spit out something along the lines of "apt not found but available in package openjdk". Where you could install openjdk and it continues to spit out the same message resulting in a loop. I believe its provided by "pkgfile" on Arch. All it knows though is that there is something named apt in that package, pkgfile itself has no idea what your trying to do or what that file does.

 

This something he could of installed if not already a default on manjaro when installing something else from pamac. Could of been in a list of optional dependencies and he selected it not knowing what it was.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Nayr438

[Guest willies leg]

On 11/25/2021 at 1:52 PM, finest feck fips said:

Android doesn't have GNU libc, which the heart of every GNU system. It doesn't have GNU coreutils or GNU bash, either, or GNU grep or GNU sed or GNU find. You will be hard pressed to find any GNU utilities on Android that a GNU/Linux user would recognize from their own system.

 

This is common knowledge, and RMS himself explained this clearly and concisely in an editorial for the Guardian ten years ago:

The current account in the GNU project's formal statement on the matter, from the official GNU website, is much the same:

The notion that Android is GNU/Linux in the way that Fedora is GNU/Linux is simply not credible.

 

In the famous words of Adam Savage

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"

I wish you well.

[imaginethat01]

Hi, everyone!

I have been watching LTT for 10 years now, and I am a huge fan of the channel and can credit it for helping me get into tech. 

I run a dual boot and primarily use Linux, and boot into Windows when I need to do so. 

I feel there were some things brought up in the second part of the series that need addressed. 

I also explain a little bit of GitHub to help explain the process to potential new users.

I do not have an active YouTube channel, nor do I plan to regularly submit content, so I'm not trying to piggyback here, but I took some time the other day to record my reactions and clarify a few points brought up in the second part of the series. 

If you're interested in hearing my perspective, check out the video below...

Thanks!
 

 

[Sandro Linux]

On 11/23/2021 at 7:03 PM, BaidDSB said:

volunteer nerds.

Most of linux kernel development is done by companies like Google and IBM 

[finest feck fips]

4 hours ago, willies leg said:

 

In the famous words of Adam Savage

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"

I wish you well.

That is such a weird way to write
> I got caught claiming Android is GNU/Linux in a purported explanation of what Android is, even though Android doesn't even include GNU utilities

I'll remind anyone still following this that you wrote:
> Android is a fork of the Linux kernel with GNU + other utilities on top

while trying to ‘explain’ Linux and forks to me, when Android does not, in fact, include GNU utilities.

 

The technical matter is very simple. The citations of the official statements of the GNU project on the matter were just for the benefit of non-technical people who might otherwise be misled by your erroneous characterization of what Android is.

I wish you well, too. I also wish you'd consider learning what Android and GNU are.

[finest feck fips]

57 minutes ago, Sandro Linux said:

Most of linux kernel development is done by companies like Google and IBM 

We shouldn't discount random volunteers, including people whose day jobs have nothing to do with computers, like this medical doctor. Or that random French guy who single-handedly contributed the drivers for hundreds of webcams. Or that volunteer who reverse-engineered drivers for every Roccat peripheral for seven years, whose drivers and tools were so good that Roccat used to host links to them on their official website (despite not supporting him financially).

When it comes to desktop peripherals, this kind of thing is much more common than you'd think looking at generic lines of code figures from the Linux Foundation or whatever.

[finest feck fips]

8 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

Even better a website where you enter your hardware and it tells you the compatibility with each distro and each version. Imagine if pop-os website had a compatibility checker. Something like Windows 11 compatibility checker. If the check is green, then the user knows they can try that particular distro and have a working OOB experience. Maybe such project already exists, I never heard of it.

This would be awesome. There are compatibility lists for various kinds of hardware, but they generally just tell you what versions of relevant components (the kernel or some particular kernel module, sometimes libraries) are required for various pieces of hardware of a certain class.

There's definitely nothing that will scan your hardware from Windows and point out what doesn't have Linux drivers.

[Sandro Linux]

12 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

We shouldn't discount random volunteers, including people whose day jobs have nothing to do with computers, like this medical doctor. Or that random French guy who single-handedly contributed the drivers for hundreds of webcams. Or that volunteer who reverse-engineered drivers for every Roccat peripheral for seven years, whose drivers and tools were so good that Roccat used to host links to them on their official website (despite not supporting him financially).

When it comes to desktop peripherals, this kind of thing is much more common than you'd think looking at generic lines of code figures from the Linux Foundation or whatever.

No I am not discounting them I was replying to someone who was saying that open source software is developed by "volunteer nerds" yet many open source projects are developed on by many different devs and companies who aren't just "nerds"

[finest feck fips]

2 hours ago, imaginethat01 said:

Hi, everyone!

I have been watching LTT for 10 years now, and I am a huge fan of the channel and can credit it for helping me get into tech. 

I run a dual boot and primarily use Linux, and boot into Windows when I need to do so. 

I feel there were some things brought up in the second part of the series that need addressed. 

I also explain a little bit of GitHub to help explain the process to potential new users.

I do not have an active YouTube channel, nor do I plan to regularly submit content, so I'm not trying to piggyback here, but I took some time the other day to record my reactions and clarify a few points brought up in the second part of the series. 

If you're interested in hearing my perspective, check out the video below...

Thanks!
 

 

You should consider separating out your explanation of how the GitHub UI works and why it works that way into a single clip, because I think some people seeing Linus' video might be curious about it and your explanation is good, but your video is long, so it would take them some time to get to it.

It's been about a year since I ran NVIDIA, but I think you can still update your NVIDIA drivers without a full reboot if you

 

1. Stop your display server in whatever way is appropriate to your system— probably

   sudo systemctl stop display-manager

   and switch to a TTY that you can log into (i.e., hit CTRL+ALT+F2)
2. Take stock of all your loaded NVIDIA kernel modules with

   lsmod | grep nv

   and note which depend on one another
3. Unload each of them with

   sudo modprobe -r <module>

   or

   sudo rmmod <module>

4. Reload the main NVIDIA kernel module (this will automatically load all its dependencies, so you don't need to load them manually) with

   sudo modprobe nvidia

5. Start your display server again, probably with

   sudo systemctl start display-manager

 

This is a good example of how the ‘no reboots’ promise of Linux isn't really something newbies can cash in on. Being able to manage updates without reboots comes from (a) the user not being forced to perform reboots and (b) the user knowing how to tell what individual components, if any, need to be restarted and how to do it without rebooting.

 

It is (unfortunately!!) not automatic or handed to you for free.

It's also a good example of how cashing in on the no-reboot promise simply may not be worth it on the desktop or on a laptop. The system where I last ran NVIDIA was a laptop with a fast SSD which took about 7 seconds following the UEFI/BIOS POST to boot the whole OS. It would literally be faster to reboot it than to do all that, even if it only took you like half a minute to shut down your display server and unload and reload the modules. And you'd lose any work you had open in the GUI either way, because shutting down your display server on Linux means closing all GUI applications.

(The above example also assumes that your updated NVIDIA drivers get linked and installed against every kernel installed on your system, which is usually the case. But on some distributions, depending on how they handle updates, if your kernel gets updated at the same time as your NVIDIA drivers, the new drivers may only be built/linked for the new kernel, in which case you have to either manually link the new drivers against your own kernel and install them first, or reboot to get the new kernel with the new NVIDIA kernel modules.)

 

Avoiding a reboot that way is great on a mainframe or some crazy enterprise hardware running in production that takes 15 minutes to POST because it runs a zillion hardware checks to make sure everything is running correctly before it even boots the operating system. On a personal computer with an NVMe SSD where all the important work is running under a GUI? Not so much!

[That One Seong]

3 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

That is such a weird way to write
> I got caught claiming Android is GNU/Linux in a purported explanation of what Android is, even though Android doesn't even include GNU utilities

I'll remind anyone still following this that you wrote:
> Android is a fork of the Linux kernel with GNU + other utilities on top

while trying to ‘explain’ Linux and forks to me, when Android does not, in fact, include GNU utilities.

 

The technical matter is very simple. The citations of the official statements of the GNU project on the matter were just for the benefit of non-technical people who might otherwise be misled by your erroneous characterization of what Android is.

I wish you well, too. I also wish you'd consider learning what Android and GNU are.

Now I'm starting to realize exactly what Luke was so afraid of...

[finest feck fips]

3 hours ago, That One Seong said:

Now I'm starting to realize exactly what Luke was so afraid of...

You're right, that was a catty attempt to embarrass someone in public for offending me.

I should take a break from these threads. I've been way over-active in them because lately I feel overwhelmed and frustrated at work and at home, and Linux desktop YouTube is a nostalgic escape for me. It requires very little effort for me to think and talk about and takes me back to being a kid, when I discovered desktop Linux.

But there's no need for me to be that intense, even when people are condescending or wrong or both at the same time. An escape should be relaxing, not something that riles me up or that involves me behaving in a way that others experience as insulting or intimidating or hostile. And there are other things in my life my time would be better spent on at the moment.

 

I'll take at least a few days' break from these forums.

Thanks for calling me out.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

8 minutes ago, finest feck fips said:

You're right, that was a catty attempt to embarrass someone in public for offending me.

I should take a break from these threads. I've been way over-active in them because lately I feel overwhelmed and frustrated at work and at home, and Linux desktop YouTube is a nostalgic escape for me. It requires very little effort for me to think and talk about and takes me back to being a kid, when I discovered desktop Linux.

But there's no need for me to be that intense, even when people are condescending or wrong or both at the same time. An escape should be relaxing, not something that riles me up or makes me behave in a way that's insulting or intimidating or whatever. And there are other things in my life my time would be better spent on at the moment. I'll take at least a few days' break from these forums.

Thanks for calling me out.

I realized over the past few years linux is too diverse thus the community can some times be toxic while not meaning to

[imaginethat01]

5 hours ago, finest feck fips said:

You should consider separating out your explanation of how the GitHub UI works and why it works that way into a single clip, because I think some people seeing Linus' video might be curious about it and your explanation is good, but your video is long, so it would take them some time to get to it.

It's been about a year since I ran NVIDIA, but I think you can still update your NVIDIA drivers without a full reboot if you

 

1. Stop your display server in whatever way is appropriate to your system— probably

   sudo systemctl stop display-manager

   and switch to a TTY that you can log into (i.e., hit CTRL+ALT+F2)
2. Take stock of all your loaded NVIDIA kernel modules with

   lsmod | grep nv

   and note which depend on one another
3. Unload each of them with

   sudo modprobe -r <module>

   or

   sudo rmmod <module>

4. Reload the main NVIDIA kernel module (this will automatically load all its dependencies, so you don't need to load them manually) with

   sudo modprobe nvidia

5. Start your display server again, probably with

   sudo systemctl start display-manager

 

This is a good example of how the ‘no reboots’ promise of Linux isn't really something newbies can cash in on. Being able to manage updates without reboots comes from (a) the user not being forced to perform reboots and (b) the user knowing how to tell what individual components, if any, need to be restarted and how to do it without rebooting.

 

It is (unfortunately!!) not automatic or handed to you for free.

It's also a good example of how cashing in on the no-reboot promise simply may not be worth it on the desktop or on a laptop. The system where I last ran NVIDIA was a laptop with a fast SSD which took about 7 seconds following the UEFI/BIOS POST to boot the whole OS. It would literally be faster to reboot it than to do all that, even if it only took you like half a minute to shut down your display server and unload and reload the modules. And you'd lose any work you had open in the GUI either way, because shutting down your display server on Linux means closing all GUI applications.

(The above example also assumes that your updated NVIDIA drivers get linked and installed against every kernel installed on your system, which is usually the case. But on some distributions, depending on how they handle updates, if your kernel gets updated at the same time as your NVIDIA drivers, the new drivers may only be built/linked for the new kernel, in which case you have to either manually link the new drivers against your own kernel and install them first, or reboot to get the new kernel with the new NVIDIA kernel modules.)

 

Avoiding a reboot that way is great on a mainframe or some crazy enterprise hardware running in production that takes 15 minutes to POST because it runs a zillion hardware checks to make sure everything is running correctly before it even boots the operating system. On a personal computer with an NVMe SSD where all the important work is running under a GUI? Not so much!

Thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback and attention to detail here, as well as providing some good information regarding the NVIDIA driver updates. 

I agree, my video is a little long! - I guess I got a bit over excited to speak on the subject. I'll consider breaking it up, or at the very least segmenting, or timestamping the video! 

[JHMW19]

And the same responses from last time across all the platforms. 

 

I am still amazed how Linus can read so many comments to his videos, the stress it is causing ME by reading them is literally keeping me up at night. Just want to say I am enjoying this series and that I am looking forward to Steam OS. It may be the only Linux OS I will try if I do make the jump again. The less of the Linux Community I have to interact with the better. 

[Gimmick21]

36 minutes ago, JHMW19 said:

The less of the Linux Community I have to interact with the better. 

The only thing that realy bothers me about this series, some of the comments and other related communication is the strict sorting of people into groups - as if that would contribute or explain something. There is not "the gamer", "the linux community", "the user" or "the programmer".

"the linux user" is not automatically part of "the community" and so isn't everyone that critisizes the videos.

 

I use Linux for over a decade now on different notebooks and PCs for office, web, simple server, watching videos,.. bascially everything except gaming and everytime I asked for help on some linux forum I got help.

 

Yes, every community has its idiots - but the idiots are not "the community".

[Bramimond]

1 hour ago, JHMW19 said:

The less of the Linux Community I have to interact with the better. 

There is no such thing as a Linux community, just like atheism isn't actually a religion.

What there is, is a bunch of people using Linux.

 

Since there is no community, a lot of the ideas people in this thread had, like unifying the experience by deciding on a single LinuxDesktop™ are impossible. And depending on which person that is using Linux you talk to, your experience will differ. It also depends on how you talk to them.

 

But most of the friction between Windows and Linux users stems from Windows users fundamentally misunderstanding Linux. And Linux users not wanting to spend time again and again to clear these misunderstandings up. It doesn't help that there are also a bunch of Linux users having these same misunderstandings. Calling it a misunderstanding may be too harsh of a word, too. In the sense that you can use a wrench as a hammer and it might solve your problem just fine. If it works for you, who am I telling you that you should really use a hammer instead? Sure, your experience is going to be sub-optimal, since you are technically doing it wrong, but on the other hand, it also kinda works. And if it works, is it really stupid?

 

The biggest misunderstanding in my opinion is trying to replicate Windows workflows in Linux. Which is fairly easy to do in Linux. It also works to some extent. My parents still use Linux that way and it works for them. So why not. It just tends to break down if you want to do more advanced things. And advanced isn't the best word to describe this. You can do programming stuff like that just fine. But if you use Linux like Windows, you're not really making use of all the advantages Linux has and if you compare that kind of experience with just using Windows directly, Linux will seem like an odd choice.

 

It reminds me of people asking me which anime to watch if they want to get into Fate, and I always have to tell them that they need to read the Visual Novel. They don't want to. Similarly, I always tell people asking me how to get into Linux that they should familiarize themselves with the CLI. They also don't want to.

 

So now you are a Linux user talking to Windows users giving Linux a shot, without really giving it a shot. You try to tell them that they should really use the CLI, since it is a better experience. You try to tell them that it will make their life easier, that you can do pretty much everything that can be done in the CLI faster than you'd be able to do it in a GUI and they still look at you like you were telling them to read a book instead of watching a movie. And they are really, really unwilling. And then you just give up. They don't really want to use Linux. They never wanted to. And that is fine. You can use Windows. Good for you.

 

But please, please, stop pretending that Windows is better than Linux. It's different. And you never gave Linux a honest try either way. You never even learned the CLI. You don't know how to use grep and vim and a myriad of other cool things. You never even tried to.

 

But that's just my 2¢. Ask another Linux user and they might tell you a different story.

[Mortons]

In all honesty, I have been watching Linus videos for a long time. Not a real fan of this series. I believe its only doing damage to the linux community. I also believe you cant say Linux is not for the average gamer when the system Linus is using for testing is high end. I myself use Windows and Linux. I see strength and weaknesses in both. My windows setup is used for gaming only as gaming is not at the same level as Windows. Once it is then I can move my desktop to 100% linux.

 

People comment about the linux community but in all honesty, there are toxic people on both sides. One should not label and entire community based off of a few toxic people. This is the reason I stay away from forums in the first place.

 

Also I would find this a more subjective series if the same amount of research was put into this Linux challenge as you would something a Windows challenge. Linus is a very smart person. I would think he would do some research so he doesn't go into a project expecting it to fail. 

[Nayr438]

16 minutes ago, Mortons said:

 I also believe you cant say Linux is not for the average gamer when the system Linus is using for testing is high end.

What does it matter? None of his problems have been caused by hardware but rather software. In terms of his CPU and Graphics card, they are both backed by commercial development in Linux in the Workstation Space. The only thing he could of done different that would have had any impact is using a AMD GPU, but I really don't think it would have made a major difference in his scenario. Once again though the whole NVIDIA thing is a software issue, not a hardware Issue. The idea that his hardware is at fault is pure nonsense.

 

19 minutes ago, Mortons said:

 I believe its only doing damage to the linux community.

How so? The only thing he has done is point out his frustrations going in as a non-linux user. The community might be arguing back and forth over nonsense, but the people who matter are watching and learning. If anything his Video series will aid in the future Development of the Desktop Space. One problem Linux has is that it's largely backed by corporations in the Server and Workspace space where a lot of his frustrations don't matter. In the Desktop space it's mostly contributed by people in there free time who primarily use Linux, many that have become disconnected from the Windows Experience. Videos like Linus's help us look at the View from a different perspective, which helps us try to reach a middle ground, even if the community as a whole doesn't agree.

[ezzep]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:09 PM, Radium_Angel said:

Until someone gets disgruntled and forks it, which resets the ball.

 

And here is the issue, right?

The notion that "anyone can make a distro" leads to massive fractioning of finite resources.

The top 3 distros and their respective package management (.rpm, .deb and whateverthehell arch uses) should be the only things concentrated on, instead of yet-another-distro-of-the-week-that-will-be-discontinued-inside-of-two-months.

 

But we all know that's not going to happen.

You do realize that's the power of linux--don't like someone else's work? You are free to do your own work. That's how linux is the way it is. If you haven't done so, do some history research on why some distros are what they are. Heck, OpenSuSE has a link on their page that lets you do your own spin of Suse. All you have to do is tell it what you want, and put a name on it, and they do the rest. Then you download, and install.

 

The top 3.....hahahaha don't make me die from laughing! A lot of these developers don't even live in the same country! That's how big the open source culture is. And you can't just up and end package management systems. RPM, DEB, PKG, SH, Snap, etc., they all have a purpose of their own, and their own weakeness. You forgot to mention the .TGZ files as well. Some of us actually use the original source files to install. Why? Because it's cool, and it works. And sometimes, you can't find a certain package you need for some obscure software that works, and it's the only known app that works.

[Radium_Angel]

1 minute ago, ezzep said:

You do realize that's the power of linux--don't like someone else's work? You are free to do your own work. That's how linux is the way it is. If you haven't done so, do some history research on why some distros are what they are. Heck, OpenSuSE has a link on their page that lets you do your own spin of Suse. All you have to do is tell it what you want, and put a name on it, and they do the rest. Then you download, and install.

 

The top 3.....hahahaha don't make me die from laughing! A lot of these developers don't even live in the same country! That's how big the open source culture is. And you can't just up and end package management systems. RPM, DEB, PKG, SH, Snap, etc., they all have a purpose of their own, and their own weakeness. You forgot to mention the .TGZ files as well. Some of us actually use the original source files to install. Why? Because it's cool, and it works. And sometimes, you can't find a certain package you need for some obscure software that works, and it's the only known app that works.

I've been involved with the *nix world since 1995, so I"m fairly aware of "the power of linux"

And that same power, as I had mentioned in my post, is what prevents it's wide-spread adoption on the desktop (the server world is not what we are discussing right now)

Fragmentation because of "flavour of the month" is the very thing holding it back.

 

Remember when Gentoo was what all the cool kids ran?

What is it now? #51 on Distro watch?

 

If you wanna roll your own distro, go right ahead, but you're not going to advance the linux-on-the-desktop cause, you're just adding more noise in the signal. 

[ezzep]

Who goes by numbers on distrowatch? I don't. Haven't for a very long time. If we are talking the desktop and not server, then right now things have stagnated. Instead of uniting, things are falling apart. You have the X.org crowd, you have the Wayland crowd. You have KDE, which used to be united. Now....they split up in so many directions. They do need to reunite. When they abandoned KDE3 for KDE4, and now for 5 and Plasma, I think the stability and customization took a hit. I could be wrong. But....

I think Gentoo could use a facelift. A GUI installer might help, or it might not. When you are dealing with flags.....my word. The time it takes to get them all in place...ugh. Nope. That's why my choice, if any, is Slackware these days. I know....they haven't made a release in forever. Pat's working on it.

 

But really, I think systemd did it in for a lot of folks. I hate it. It makes my favorite distro, suse, absolutely useless when trying to get things working. I learned on the old commands, not systemd. So it's confusing as heck when I try to troubleshoot. On the other hand, I can use MX and everything works great. I just know that in 2025, I say goodbye to MS. I'm done living by their rules and crappy programming. Telemetry has taught them nothing.

[Jaesop]

14 minutes ago, ezzep said:

You have the X.org crowd, you have the Wayland crowd.

I mean, that's not a tribalistic mindset. For some people Wayland isn't there with their hardware. Soon, it will be (and is for many nVidia cards).