October 18th Apple Event - Unleashed - Apple Silicon, MacBook Pro upgrades, HomePod mini, AirPods 3rd Generation

[hishnash]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

Just bring back Target Display Mode!

With monetary they sort of have (but you need to be coming from another mac)... you can use one mac running monetary as the display for another mac (over wifi or over a cable) with wired `AirPlay`, i have not had a chance to test how this works, what the latancy is like but if its like SideCar for the iPad the wired solution should be quite good. 

[hishnash]

4 hours ago, Obioban said:

Personally, I’d love a $1000-$2000 thunderbolt 4, 6k, 30-32”, 120hz variable refresh rate screen, with built in camera, speakers, and USB hub.

 

At 32" apple this would be 6k based on apples PPI. I somehow don't think apple would sell a miniLED display at 6K with 120hz variable refresh rate and make it cheaper thant he pro display given it would likely work better than the pro display in all aspects. 

(also 6k at 120 over TB4 ... maybe apple have spiced up their TB ports but this would be 100% only a device you can run from a M1 pro/max mac at those specs). 

[Obioban]

29 minutes ago, hishnash said:

At 32" apple this would be 6k based on apples PPI. I somehow don't think apple would sell a miniLED display at 6K with 120hz variable refresh rate and make it cheaper thant he pro display given it would likely work better than the pro display in all aspects. 

(also 6k at 120 over TB4 ... maybe apple have spiced up their TB ports but this would be 100% only a device you can run from a M1 pro/max mac at those specs). 

They’d have to run two TB4 cables, now that you mention it. That’s functionality how the first gen 5k iMac ran (two data lines, computer functionally handled it like two screens, but nothing bad about that from the user side.

…. That would be less clean docking, though.

[BondiBlue]

47 minutes ago, hishnash said:

With monetary they sort of have (but you need to be coming from another mac)... you can use one mac running monetary as the display for another mac (over wifi or over a cable) with wired `AirPlay`, i have not had a chance to test how this works, what the latancy is like but if its like SideCar for the iPad the wired solution should be quite good. 

That's still not a true replacement for TDM though. 

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

That's still not a true replacement for TDM though. 

Air Play while a really nice feature has a good amount of image compression so it's definitely not a replacement for TDM.

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, Obioban said:

They’d have to run two TB4 cables, now that you mention it. That’s functionality how the first gen 5k iMac ran (two data lines, computer functionally handled it like two screens, but nothing bad about that from the user side.

Within apples ecosystem i could see them managing (if you use the cable from) them to run these things possibly pushing a higher bandwidth over the wire or a higher level of compression than the standard display stream compression of DisplayPort (they have proRes encoders/decoders after all...). 

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Air Play while a really nice feature has a good amount of image compression so it's definitely not a replacement for TDM.

Given you can use it with a cable like sidecar i wander if (like sidecar) when doing this the compression level is lower/removed. At least with the iPad in sidecar this is absolutely the case both with latency and quality.  

But I agree having a regular display port mode that the boot loader enabled would be much better.  I would not be surprised if the community getting linux to run on the M1 figure out how to support this letting you install ultra lightweight os that uses the cpu/gpu to decode the display port signal to then pass it on to the display controller.  

[BondiBlue]

1 minute ago, hishnash said:

Given you can use it with a cable like sidecar i wander if (like sidecar) when doing this the compression level is lower/removed. At least with the iPad in sidecar this is absolutely the case both with latency and quality.  

But I agree having a regular display port mode that the boot loader enabled would be much better.  I would not be surprised if the community getting linux to run on the M1 figure out how to support this letting you install ultra lightweight os that uses the cpu/gpu to decode the display port signal to then pass it on to the display controller.  

Target Display Mode (especially on the 2009 and 2010 iMacs) didn't require any software at all. As long as the iMac was booted up it would switch over to TDM as soon as the cable was connected. It literally just functions as a standard DisplayPort monitor. That's what I'd love to see in a modern iMac, but I have no hope of that ever coming back.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, BondiBlue said:

As long as the iMac was booted up it would switch over to TDM as soon as the cable was connected.

There was software to do this, it just was not software you were able to interact with, at some level some os/firmware needed to handle the DisplayPort handshake and switch the display controller. 

 

[Paul Thexton]

14 hours ago, Obioban said:

I was really hoping apple would release a consumer focused screen to go with these laptops

That would be great but sadly I don't see it happening, and even if they did the likelyhood is they'd probably be a bit more expensive than they really ought to be (especially for people who stretched their budget to the max already to buy a $2k laptop)

 

I've been using this Samsung display for just shy of 2 years now. I've no complaints about it (actually I have one, it doesn't seem to support 4k 60hz over HDMI, only does that over DisplayPort) but I've never been in any doubt that there are probably better / crisper / faster displays out there for similar money, the problem I have is trying to wade through the marketing waffle for various models to identify a truly excellent panel.

 

 

[RedRound2]

On 10/24/2021 at 2:42 AM, RejZoR said:

It seems like Apple put bunch of ASIC's around multipurpose cores that are already without any compromises. So it really does everything super efficiently which is very important in such compact form factor with limited thermal profile.

Do you have any proof for this? They did add media engine decoders for ProRes to get the impressive ProRes performance but that seems to it apart from the usual NPU and X265/HEVC that’s pretty much standard across all CPUs these days.

 

if they did have ASICS then the M1 would’ve only been good in some tasks while being slow in others. That is just not the case

[saltycaramel]

Less than 4 hours before the review embargo is lifted. Youtube feeds are about to get filled with thicc boxy new MBPs, HDMI ports and notches. Oh and a bloom-gate, let’s not forget an healthy bloom-gate every time a miniLED display is introduced.

[Kisai]

8 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Less than 4 hours before the review embargo is lifted. Youtube feeds are about to get filled with thicc boxy new MBPs, HDMI ports and notches. Oh and a bloom-gate, let’s not forget an healthy bloom-gate every time a miniLED display is introduced.

What about Screen burn-in?

 

The reason people hate OLED's is because they can literately be destroyed in 8 hours of use, so their ideal target display is something that is primarily off, like a cell phone screen or a large-screen used as a home theater-only (not games, sports or news.)

 

Mini-LED is supposed to be the better compromise over OLED. offering a way to dim areas of the screen, but not at the precision of OLED.

 

That said, I'm more optimistic about the screens. HDR standard screens would be nice and make MBP's use for film editing/grading that much more useful.

[Lightwreather]

20 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Less than 4 hours before the review embargo is lifted. Youtube feeds are about to get filled with thicc boxy new MBPs, HDMI ports and notches. Oh and a bloom-gate, let’s not forget an healthy bloom-gate every time a miniLED display is introduced.

Too bad, mopre than half the tech channels I watch for reviews like this, don't get one from apple

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, RedRound2 said:

Do you have any proof for this? They did add media engine decoders for ProRes to get the impressive ProRes performance but that seems to it apart from the usual NPU and X265/HEVC that’s pretty much standard across all CPUs these days.

 

if they did have ASICS then the M1 would’ve only been good in some tasks while being slow in others. That is just not the case

All the "media engines" are literally ASIC's. They are physical transistors on a chip dedicated to a very specific task in which they are super efficient. And if you built in 90% of stuff done on Macs, you create hyper efficient SoC. Then there you have general purpose cores for everything else in between which are also very efficient by themselves. And as package it's very efficient thing then.

[LAwLz]

5 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

All the "media engines" are literally ASIC's. They are physical transistors on a chip dedicated to a very specific task in which they are super efficient. And if you built in 90% of stuff done on Macs, you create hyper efficient SoC. Then there you have general purpose cores for everything else in between which are also very efficient by themselves. And as package it's very efficient thing then.

I think RedRound2 interpreted your post as "the M1 is only fast because of ASICS".

The M1 has pretty much the same fixed-function hardware as most other processors on the market, such as basically any Intel chip. The M1 is fast because it's fast, not because of shortcuts like having a bunch of fixed-function hardware. That's what RedRound2 tried to say.

[saltycaramel]

43 minutes ago, Kisai said:

What about Screen burn-in?

 

The reason people hate OLED's is because they can literately be destroyed in 8 hours of use, so their ideal target display is something that is primarily off, like a cell phone screen or a large-screen used as a home theater-only (not games, sports or news.)

 

Mini-LED is supposed to be the better compromise over OLED. offering a way to dim areas of the screen, but not at the precision of OLED.

 

That said, I'm more optimistic about the screens. HDR standard screens would be nice and make MBP's use for film editing/grading that much more useful.

 

Yeah I meant people will just start taking pictures of the screens in unrealistic light/exposure conditions and make the inherent blooming more apparent. Then after a couple of days we’ll all mostly forget about it, like we did for the XDR display and the M1 iPad Pro 12.9”. 

 

Default miniLED and VRR 24Hz-120Hz sure is a big deal and will be a joy for the eyes. 

 

Default miniLED 60Hz on the 999$ M2 Macbook Air next year would be a huge deal. (although the price is rumored to get a slight increase)

 

OLEDs are not ready for Apple’s brightness requirements on Macs. Dual-layer OLEDs later this decade will be. LG is developing them. 

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, hishnash said:

Given you can use it with a cable like sidecar i wander if (like sidecar) when doing this the compression level is lower/removed. At least with the iPad in sidecar this is absolutely the case both with latency and quality.  

But I agree having a regular display port mode that the boot loader enabled would be much better.  I would not be surprised if the community getting linux to run on the M1 figure out how to support this letting you install ultra lightweight os that uses the cpu/gpu to decode the display port signal to then pass it on to the display controller.  

Regular AirPlay is really good, wired and wireless, but if you actually want/need very high image quality then it's basically a no go. Not that I personally have complaints with the image quality for text and presentations though, some content viewing as well. Apple TV's connected to projectors tucked up on the roof using wireless is very good for giving reliable wireless projector connectivity, far better than what any projectors natively come with if at all.

 

Think I put about 50 in one school. AirParrot on Windows to connect to them using AirPlay.

[Paul Thexton]

24 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Regular AirPlay is really good

My only complaint about AirPlay (or SideCar in my case) is that it's tied to the Apple ID only, meaning I can't use my iPad Mini as a tertiary display for my work MacBook Pro.  Or if I can, I can't figure out how to do it short of signing in to iCloud with my work managed apple ID rather than my personal one.

[Paul Thexton]

Just now, Paul Thexton said:

My only complaint about AirPlay (or SideCar in my case) is that it's tied to the Apple ID only, meaning I can't use my iPad Mini as a tertiary display for my work MacBook Pro.  Or if I can, I can't figure out how to do it short of signing in to iCloud with my work managed apple ID rather than my personal one.

Thinking about it. Maybe the actual issue here is the lack of "multi user" on iPads.

[RedRound2]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

All the "media engines" are literally ASIC's. They are physical transistors on a chip dedicated to a very specific task in which they are super efficient. And if you built in 90% of stuff done on Macs, you create hyper efficient SoC. Then there you have general purpose cores for everything else in between which are also very efficient by themselves. And as package it's very efficient thing then.

I specifically acknowledged that media engines are fixed function hardware. They even said that in their keynote. There's a dedicated section on the silicon that just does this.

But it is pretty standard in Intel and AMD CPUs as they also have the same ASICs as Apple apart from ProRes. 

 

And media encoding and decoding isn't 90% of what is done on a Mac. Maybe for some ProRes users, but that's it.

They don't have ASICs for 90% of the things you do on Mac. They just have a fast general CPU that does most things really well, with ProRes ASIC to boost ProRes workflow

3 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

 They did add media engine decoders for ProRes to get the impressive ProRes performance but that seems to it apart from the usual NPU and X265/HEVC that’s pretty much standard across all CPUs these days.

if they did have ASICS then the M1 would’ve only been good in some tasks while being slow in others. That is just not the case

So as long as you are not comparing ProRes performance between chips, you really are just comparing the raw strength of each CPU/GPU/NPU in all tests.

And even if you are comparing x265 between Intel and Apple chips, you are comparing the hardware ASICs on both those chips, so even those comparisons are valid, as it just speaks to who made a better and more efficient ASIC

[igormp]

5 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

But it is pretty standard in Intel and AMD CPUs as they also have the same ASICs as Apple apart from ProRes. 

A lil nitpicking here: those ASICs are found on the GPUs of most devices, not CPUs. Even when it's a SoC with an iGPU, it's usually related to the GPU itself.

And NPUs are not that common, but I guess you were only referring to the media [de|en]coders

[Spindel]

30 minutes ago, igormp said:

A lil nitpicking here: those ASICs are found on the GPUs of most devices, not CPUs. Even when it's a SoC with an iGPU, it's usually related to the GPU itself.

And NPUs are not that common, but I guess you were only referring to the media [de|en]coders

Quick quote from Wikipedia 

 

Quote

Quick Sync was introduced with the Sandy Bridge CPU microarchitecture on 9 January 2011 and has been found on the die of Intel CPUs ever since.

 

[Paul Thexton]

To be fair it's only us nerds who care whether the (de)(en)coders are on the CPU/SOC or a GPU and like to discuss the efficiencies behind it. Vast majority of people who rely on them only care about "this laptop encodes this video really quickly" / "this laptop isn't really as fast as the other one"

[LAwLz]

2 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Quick quote from Wikipedia

Well, he said he was nitpicking and technically he is right. QuickSync is part of the iGPU. That's why it's available on Intel's discrete graphics cards, and not on the CPUs that don't have the GPU.

It's not really worth mentioning though, because the same might be true for Apple's implementation. The media engine is probably considered part of the GPU as well.