2.1 output from PC, adjustable crossovers

[3VIL_G3NIUS]

Is it possible to get 2.1 output from every program using the realtek manager or some other program? It's possible to set 5.1 then turn off rear and center speakers, which would make it 2.1, but then it only outputs to the sub channel with content that has a dedicated LFE channel and doesn't for any naturally 2 channel content (itunes,youtube etc.)
There is a bass management selection but that is terrible, as it trying to remove some of the low frequencies from the front speakers by selecting the small speakers option.

I guess what I am after is something that will play 2.1 from downmixed 5.1 properly, allow me to select a high pass frequency for the fronts, and divert bass from 2 channel content to the sub channel with crossover frequencies of my choice.
If I can't do this with software, is there a sound card or DAC with this functionality?

[helping]

have you considered actual passive crossovers? or are you using them PC type noise makers?

[TheProfosist]

@3VIL_G3NIUS if anything you should do 3.1 and mix the rears into the front if you have that ability. Also 2.1 isnt really a thing, well it is but the PC isnt aware of it, just set it to 2.0 with full range speakers and the sub should act as a crossover.

[3VIL_G3NIUS]

have you considered actual passive crossovers? or are you using them PC type noise makers?

Currently I have the stereo output from my PC split to a 2 channel amp and an actively crossed sub amp. It's not too bad for music except I can't highpass the fronts at 40hz or 50hz. And for movies it's just kinda wrong, they have already mixed the audio as it should be, I don't want to be down mixing it to 2.0 then adding a sub. The LFE channel should be able to get straight to the sub.

 

 

@3VIL_G3NIUS if anything you should do 3.1 and mix the rears into the front if you have that ability. Also 2.1 isnt really a thing, well it is but the PC isnt aware of it, just set it to 2.0 with full range speakers and the sub should act as a crossover.

You mean with left, center and right? I don't like center speakers, properly set up stereo does better. Center speakers are for theaters where the left and right speakers are miles away from the center of the screen, and not everyone can sit in a sweet spot and get proper imaging. Also my amp is 2 channel, I don't have an identical 3rd speaker, and it'd have to go above or below the screens, which kinda defeats the purpose.

The sub is actively crossed. I want to cross the fronts above like 40-50hz, and not have to downmix movies to 2.0, then pull out a sub channel from that, because there is other bass on the front speakers that is there for a reason and isn't meant to be sent to a sub.

[mr moose]

I would just used a home theatre amp,  set your pc to 2 channel and use the cd in.  

[3VIL_G3NIUS]

I would just used a home theatre amp,  set your pc to 2 channel and use the cd in.  

The only home theater amp I have won't do that. It only takes pre decoded 5.1 input, and I don't think it outputs to the sub channel unless there is input from the sub channel input, plus it in use in the lounge with the tv. Otherwise it's a choice between 3 2 channel amps, of which I am using my favorite.

[TheProfosist]

Currently I have the stereo output from my PC split to a 2 channel amp and an actively crossed sub amp. It's not too bad for music except I can't highpass the fronts at 40hz or 50hz. And for movies it's just kinda wrong, they have already mixed the audio as it should be, I don't want to be down mixing it to 2.0 then adding a sub. The LFE channel should be able to get straight to the sub.

 

 

You mean with left, center and right? I don't like center speakers, properly set up stereo does better. Center speakers are for theaters where the left and right speakers are miles away from the center of the screen, and not everyone can sit in a sweet spot and get proper imaging. Also my amp is 2 channel, I don't have an identical 3rd speaker, and it'd have to go above or below the screens, which kinda defeats the purpose.

The sub is actively crossed. I want to cross the fronts above like 40-50hz, and not have to downmix movies to 2.0, then pull out a sub channel from that, because there is other bass on the front speakers that is there for a reason and isn't meant to be sent to a sub.

if your sub has a crossover you should be fine as it take what ever is below and the speakers what ever is above. This would only work if the audio passes though the sub first though. It will be far easier for downmix to 2.0 and have the cossover deal with it than trying to mix the 5 to 2 and keeping the LFE.

LFE is not directly the sub but contains non directional bass only information that is sub 120hz you can read more about it here http://goo.gl/GdKRqE which is a pdf direct from dolby. The most relevant bit is "Consumer Dolby Digital products that reproduce multichannel sound must combine the LFE channel in the proper acoustic mixing ratio with the bass from the other channels for proper reproduction." From that I get that the LFE is actually mixed into the other channels, mainly FR FL RR RL, and is then effected by the crossover setting. If the speakers a are full range none is sent to the sub unless you enable it but if you set the spears to small or not full range audio below the crossover frequency is sent to the sub and removed from the speakers. This is something that you encounter when setting up a home theater receiver.

Your choice of 40 or 50hz seems awfully low especially if your listening to anything done using Dolby. I say this because of this excerpt from my Adam Sub7 manual "with a 85 Hz high pass as recommended by Dolby® laboratories for use in surround setups". This is a professional unit so I assume they did their research and got it right as there is actually a dedicated switch for the filter and mark on the crossover knob. Adam how ever recommends 70-75hz for the Sub7 pair correctly with one of their speakers, I happen to have Adam A5X's.

Thats actually not true the center channel is primarily used for dialog and a proper center channel is optimized for that. I just suggested is because it would be pretty simple to mix in the rear channels into the front channels depending what your using and 3.1 is actually somewhat common if you look outside the US or home theater.

Hopefully this helped somewhat, reply back if you have anymore questions and what not.

[3VIL_G3NIUS]

if your sub has a crossover you should be fine as it take what ever is below and the speakers what ever is above. This would only work if the audio passes though the sub first though. It will be far easier for downmix to 2.0 and have the cossover deal with it than trying to mix the 5 to 2 and keeping the LFE.

LFE is not directly the sub but contains non directional bass only information that is sub 120hz you can read more about it here http://goo.gl/GdKRqE which is a pdf direct from dolby. The most relevant bit is "Consumer Dolby Digital products that reproduce multichannel sound must combine the LFE channel in the proper acoustic mixing ratio with the bass from the other channels for proper reproduction." From that I get that the LFE is actually mixed into the other channels, mainly FR FL RR RL, and is then effected by the crossover setting. If the speakers a are full range none is sent to the sub unless you enable it but if you set the spears to small or not full range audio below the crossover frequency is sent to the sub and removed from the speakers. This is something that you encounter when setting up a home theater receiver.

Your choice of 40 or 50hz seems awfully low especially if your listening to anything done using Dolby. I say this because of this excerpt from my Adam Sub7 manual "with a 85 Hz high pass as recommended by Dolby® laboratories for use in surround setups". This is a professional unit so I assume they did their research and got it right as there is actually a dedicated switch for the filter and mark on the crossover knob. Adam how ever recommends 70-75hz for the Sub7 pair correctly with one of their speakers, I happen to have Adam A5X's.

Thats actually not true the center channel is primarily used for dialog and a proper center channel is optimized for that. I just suggested is because it would be pretty simple to mix in the rear channels into the front channels depending what your using and 3.1 is actually somewhat common if you look outside the US or home theater.

Hopefully this helped somewhat, reply back if you have anymore questions and what not.

The sub amp LPF can be set between anything from 35-300hz. It's probably somewhere between 60 and 80hz. Speakers take full range since the input is just split between the amps with their volume levels set and the total volume adjusted from the PC.

120hz sounds a bit high to be considered non-directional, I thought it was supposed to be below 80hz.

 

I want to cross the fronts at 40-50hz simply so I'm not hammering on them with deep bass when there is a subwoofer for that, they are plenty capable of producing full range. 80hz is too high when they are capable.

 

I didn't know that they just mixed everything to the sub with the LFE. Since that seems to be how it's done, are there DACs/sound cards with active crossovers that can be adjusted? Surely that's a thing, it's been available in car audio for ages, and pro audio for longer. If sound cards don't have it then it just makes them even more of a gimmick

[TheProfosist]

The sub amp LPF can be set between anything from 35-300hz. It's probably somewhere between 60 and 80hz. Speakers take full range since the input is just split between the amps with their volume levels set and the total volume adjusted from the PC.

120hz sounds a bit high to be considered non-directional, I thought it was supposed to be below 80hz.

 

I want to cross the fronts at 40-50hz simply so I'm not hammering on them with deep bass when there is a subwoofer for that, they are plenty capable of producing full range. 80hz is too high when they are capable.

 

I didn't know that they just mixed everything to the sub with the LFE. Since that seems to be how it's done, are there DACs/sound cards with active crossovers that can be adjusted? Surely that's a thing, it's been available in car audio for ages, and pro audio for longer. If sound cards don't have it then it just makes them even more of a gimmick

Ahh ok so you dont want full range to go to the speakers but need it outputted to go to the sub?

their not saying 120hz in non direction just that no direction sounds 120hz and below are in the LFE. That would include sounds where the hz is inherently non directional but also stuff at say 100hz where it doesnt matter necessarily where the sound comes from. I hope my explanation makes sense otherwise the PDF I link goes into a further explanation.

I agree with you there but the 85hz recommended is by dolby so thats what it should be mixed to. I run it lower and with a slight crossover point between the speakers and the sub so you dont notice that gap that can occur. I really noticed it on my Corsair SP2500's you can definitely tell in the stock onfig if the range is coming from the sub or satellites. With a bit of tweaking you can get it out. Once way to get the PCs to get a crossover specifically for the speakers would be to use a passive crossover that only lets a certain frequency or above pas though to the speaker. I swear they have these for car audio but last I saw them was ages ago.

That is usually adjusted at the amp or speaker for PC's. Like in my case the crossover is in the Sub7 and the audio passes though it to the speakers. But your correct generally sound cards dont have a crossover. Some higher end ones do but that its with analog out to PC speaker 5.1 which is grenerally quite poor quality compared to onboard audio optical out to a home theatre receiver. Either way that is only with 5.1+ since by default speaker arrangements are 2ch, 4ch, 5.1ch, and 7.1ch when dealing with PC's. Some higher end ones likely creative and possibly ASUS might let you mute certain channels and mix them in to the others. Otherwise his would have to be done in the software and would still look to the PC as 5.1 but there would just be empty channels if that makes sense. lastly when looking at PC's most times a 2.1 system is actually output as 2.0 sent to the sub which has a crossover then the sound is passed to the speakers.

[3VIL_G3NIUS]

Ahh ok so you dont want full range to go to the speakers but need it outputted to go to the sub?

their not saying 120hz in non direction just that no direction sounds 120hz and below are in the LFE. That would include sounds where the hz is inherently non directional but also stuff at say 100hz where it doesnt matter necessarily where the sound comes from. I hope my explanation makes sense otherwise the PDF I link goes into a further explanation.

I agree with you there but the 85hz recommended is by dolby so thats what it should be mixed to. I run it lower and with a slight crossover point between the speakers and the sub so you dont notice that gap that can occur. I really noticed it on my Corsair SP2500's you can definitely tell in the stock onfig if the range is coming from the sub or satellites. With a bit of tweaking you can get it out. Once way to get the PCs to get a crossover specifically for the speakers would be to use a passive crossover that only lets a certain frequency or above pas though to the speaker. I swear they have these for car audio but last I saw them was ages ago.

That is usually adjusted at the amp or speaker for PC's. Like in my case the crossover is in the Sub7 and the audio passes though it to the speakers. But your correct generally sound cards dont have a crossover. Some higher end ones do but that its with analog out to PC speaker 5.1 which is grenerally quite poor quality compared to onboard audio optical out to a home theatre receiver. Either way that is only with 5.1+ since by default speaker arrangements are 2ch, 4ch, 5.1ch, and 7.1ch when dealing with PC's. Some higher end ones likely creative and possibly ASUS might let you mute certain channels and mix them in to the others. Otherwise his would have to be done in the software and would still look to the PC as 5.1 but there would just be empty channels if that makes sense. lastly when looking at PC's most times a 2.1 system is actually output as 2.0 sent to the sub which has a crossover then the sound is passed to the speakers.

 

Yeah, I just want to be able to play with crossover settings basically to tune it as I wish. 

I'm using a Technics SU-V450 for the speakers, so it's got no fancy digital processing or anything. It's purely analogue. The speakers I change between Wharfedale Dovedale 3's and Dynaco a25's depending on what I feel like. I'm using the a25's atm because since I got more monitors there hasn't been room on my desk for the doves. I'd need to build/buy some stands.

The sub is a an infinity beta 15" in a box that I can't remember the specs of, the design files will be on my pc somewhere but I can't be bothered searching. It's driven by an Atomic 3000.1D that's running off a 12v PSU that can do about 70A, so even though using a car amp inside isn't ideal, especially such a beefy one, it's no problem because with that PSU it can supply more than enough for the sub. The amp will go back in a car when I get around to doing another build, so I'll either finish building a 200W monoblock I started if I keep using the 15", otherwise I have 2 RE MT 18"s sitting around doing nothing so I'd use them and buy a crown amp. Though the box would be massive.

So that's the audio situation

I could use a passive crossover, but then I have to commit to a certain frequency, I'd prefer active. Car audio does have separate crossovers with decent component kits, otherwise it's just a capacitor hooked up to the tweeter. And of course any home audio speakers are going to have some nice, complex crossovers in them too.

 

I could do 4.1, but with the layout of the room there is no suitable place for rear speakers. I could rearrange the room, but I'd have to tidy it first

The audio options with PCs is just so much less customization when it shouldn't have to be, any cheap headunit for a car has at least some form of adjustable active crossover so why shouldn't an expensive PC? I guess it's because modern receivers have have so many features that it's unnecessary? 

[TheProfosist]

Yeah, I just want to be able to play with crossover settings basically to tune it as I wish. 

I'm using a Technics SU-V450 for the speakers, so it's got no fancy digital processing or anything. It's purely analogue. The speakers I change between Wharfedale Dovedale 3's and Dynaco a25's depending on what I feel like. I'm using the a25's atm because since I got more monitors there hasn't been room on my desk for the doves. I'd need to build/buy some stands.

The sub is a an infinity beta 15" in a box that I can't remember the specs of, the design files will be on my pc somewhere but I can't be bothered searching. It's driven by an Atomic 3000.1D that's running off a 12v PSU that can do about 70A, so even though using a car amp inside isn't ideal, especially such a beefy one, it's no problem because with that PSU it can supply more than enough for the sub. The amp will go back in a car when I get around to doing another build, so I'll either finish building a 200W monoblock I started if I keep using the 15", otherwise I have 2 RE MT 18"s sitting around doing nothing so I'd use them and buy a crown amp. Though the box would be massive.

So that's the audio situation

I could use a passive crossover, but then I have to commit to a certain frequency, I'd prefer active. Car audio does have separate crossovers with decent component kits, otherwise it's just a capacitor hooked up to the tweeter. And of course any home audio speakers are going to have some nice, complex crossovers in them too.

 

I could do 4.1, but with the layout of the room there is no suitable place for rear speakers. I could rearrange the room, but I'd have to tidy it first

The audio options with PCs is just so much less customization when it shouldn't have to be, any cheap headunit for a car has at least some form of adjustable active crossover so why shouldn't an expensive PC? I guess it's because modern receivers have have so many features that it's unnecessary?

So you kight just have to do more research but youll like be looking for parts from/for Home theatre speakers or stuff from car audio.

I wouldnt say that really since you can get into the pro stuff or as you said just output to a home theater receiver. Think of the PC as more of a source for the audio than anything else because once you start getting into the stuff mentioned above the hardware and software with them really handles everything rather than the PC or it hardware. Well a head unit for a car is a purpose build device. A PC built with audio in mind would likely end up with something nice but it would be a considerable departure from your basic included sound card.

Receivers are one of the reason since that has been the easiest and cleanest method to get the PC in the living room since optical audio has been available on both devices. Now with HDMI and audio out though HDMI on GPU's ist only easier.

here are some pics of available options in my Creative Sound Blaster ZxR's control pannel

I dont use surround but here are the available options. I should mention that analog out this card only does 2.0 and 5.1

here is what i usually run it in direct line out to my Corsair SP2500's

I also have a a pair of Beyerdynamic MMX300's I use with it headset wise.

[ShearMe]

If sound cards don't have it then it just makes them even more of a gimmick

 

Yuhp.

[TheProfosist]

Yuhp.

I dont think it is based on how pc sound works.

Edit: Sorry not how it works but like the general hardware the average person even gamer would use doesnt have a use for one, especially if your not doing surround.

[ShearMe]

I dont think it is based on how pc sound works.

 

What?

[TheProfosist]

What?

read above I was making the edit as you made that likely sorry. Right after I typed it I knew no on would understand what I meant.

[ShearMe]

read above I was making the edit as you made that likely sorry. Right after I typed it I knew no on would understand what I meant.

 

I still don't understand...

[TheProfosist]

I still don't understand...

How many things that are generally plugged into a sound card need a crossover?

[ShearMe]

How many things that are generally plugged into a sound card need a crossover?

 

How many things that are generally plugged into a sound card use more than one of the "features" of a soundcard at a time? 

[TheProfosist]

How many things that are generally plugged into a sound card use more than one of the "features" of a soundcard at a time?

Im not talking about the soundcard gimmicks. What im saying is that usually if something needs a crossover and is going to be plugged into the rear 3.5mm jack on a PC it already has one.

[ShearMe]

Im not talking about the soundcard gimmicks. What im saying is that usually if something needs a crossover and is going to be plugged into the rear 3.5mm jack on a PC it already has one.

 

I'm not talking about gimmicks either. I just think it'd be cool if digital crossovers were included with soundcards.

[TheProfosist]

I'm not talking about gimmicks either. I just think it'd be cool if digital crossovers were included with soundcards.

It is for surround on some look at my above screenshot of my Sound Blaster ZxR. but I believe its a feature very few would use for the reasons ive stated thus far.

[ShearMe]

It is for surround on some look at my above screenshot of my Sound Blaster ZxR. but I believe its a feature very few would use for the reasons ive stated thus far.

 

Even that is a limited form of control, however. The whole software side of computer output is very sparse with functionality, imo, whether it be crossovers or program-specific outputs or port switching. Maybe I'm just an audio junkie complaining about trivial matters, but we do get plenty of threads asking about virtual audio cables and such so I can't be alone.

[mr moose]

Even that is a limited form of control, however. The whole software side of computer output is very sparse with functionality, imo, whether it be crossovers or program-specific outputs or port switching. Maybe I'm just an audio junkie complaining about trivial matters, but we do get plenty of threads asking about virtual audio cables and such so I can't be alone.

your not alone,  software can easily be the answer to all the questions.  a good example is given that nearly all DAC's and processors are identical, there is no reason why surround processing has to be chip specific, it is like the mantle/gsync/physx debate of the audio world.   Just program the surround algorithm to utilise the DAC's processor properly and you can have near identical surround regardless of onboard/soundcard/usb.  

[TheProfosist]

Even that is a limited form of control, however. The whole software side of computer output is very sparse with functionality, imo, whether it be crossovers or program-specific outputs or port switching. Maybe I'm just an audio junkie complaining about trivial matters, but we do get plenty of threads asking about virtual audio cables and such so I can't be alone.

that depends what kind of hardware your running and what software your running with it the driver doesnt matter much. But that is when your looking beyond sound cards. Port switch beyond front pannel and rear actually has demand, like switching between audio card outputs, im surprised that no one has made something. I would like one where i could just ruin it and it would switch between 2ch and 5.1ch output. I ened this because of a weird issue in WMC on Vista/7 (possibly 8 havnt tested 8 WMC). The only reason I can think that this has been done is microsoft may not have a API that allows you to interface with that part of the OS.

What do you mean by virtual audio cables? The most common thing that I think might be close would people who want to output out of two ports simultaneously for some reason like you could do in WinXP.

your not alone,  software can easily be the answer to all the questions.  a good example is given that nearly all DAC's and processors are identical, there is no reason why surround processing has to be chip specific, it is like the mantle/gsync/physx debate of the audio world.   Just program the surround algorithm to utilise the DAC's processor properly and you can have near identical surround regardless of onboard/soundcard/usb.

do the chips ereally do much surround ones especially the realtek ones?. Its my understanding it would be the decoder or filer and the possible the speaker or amp once it gets out of the computer.

The path for audio though a PC is kinda like this:

file > decoder > windows api > driver > device > speakers

There are a few smaller things in between as well. Also yo can shorten it greatly by using something like ASIO where a program can interface directly with a device driver.

[mr moose]

that depends what kind of hardware your running and what software your running with it the driver doesnt matter much. But that is when your looking beyond sound cards. Port switch beyond front pannel and rear actually has demand, like switching between audio card outputs, im surprised that no one has made something. I would like one where i could just ruin it and it would switch between 2ch and 5.1ch output. I ened this because of a weird issue in WMC on Vista/7 (possibly 8 havnt tested 8 WMC). The only reason I can think that this has been done is microsoft may not have a API that allows you to interface with that part of the OS.

What do you mean by virtual audio cables? The most common thing that I think might be close would people who want to output out of two ports simultaneously for some reason like you could do in WinXP.

do the chips ereally do much surround ones especially the realtek ones?. Its my understanding it would be the decoder or filer and the possible the speaker or amp once it gets out of the computer.

The path for audio though a PC is kinda like this:

file > decoder > windows api > driver > device > speakers

There are a few smaller things in between as well. Also yo can shorten it greatly by using something like ASIO where a program can interface directly with a device driver.

 

It's my understanding that most of the processors in dacs now are very similar and the requirement to use asus or creative hardware with their respective binaural encoders seems to be an artificial one. 

 

I see no reason why the HRTF encoding has to be tied to hardware at all and as a such I suspect the surround software from soundcard manufactures is tied to their device drivers to force people to buy the card if they want the decoder.