The hell is tRFC vs tRC? (AMD vs Intel the 5th timing)

[Nena Trinity]

AMD:

*Bank Cycle Time (tRC)

 

Intel:
*Row Refresh Cycle Time (tRFC)

 

To my understanding the RIGHT setting should be tRP + tRAS = tRC as the correct setting right? But how come Intel have tRFC at 467?!! O_O

 

What is the correct way to calculate minimum safe tRFC? Going from 467 down to 50 sounds kinda extreme?

[.Apex.]

8 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

To my understanding the RIGHT setting should be tRP + tRAS = tRC as the correct setting right? But how come Intel have tRFC at 467?!! O_O

 

What is the correct way to calculate minimum safe tRFC? Going from 467 down to 50 sounds kinda extreme?

tRC and tRFC are completely different and both of the platforms utilize those values it's just CPU-Z not showing you for whatever reason, tRFC shouldn't be anywhere near 50 cycles, even Samsung B-Die can barely get below ~250 cycles

 

Otherwise everything seems fine to me for both platforms

[Nena Trinity]

Just now, .Apex. said:

tRC and tRFC are completely different and both of the platforms utilize those values it's just CPU-Z not showing you for whatever reason, tRFC shouldn't be anywhere near 50 cycles, even Samsung B-Die can barely get below ~250 cycles

So them being COMPLETELY DIFRENT, that means messing with it like in Ryzen case is a bad idea?

 

For Ryzen the math should be 19 + 39 = 58, so for Intel how does one calculate the optimal tRFC? Or is default preferable?

[.Apex.]

Just now, Nena Trinity said:

So them being COMPLETELY DIFRENT, that means messing with it like in Ryzen case is a bad idea?

 

For Ryzen the math should be 19 + 39 = 58, so for Intel how does one calculate the optimal tRFC? Or is default preferable?

I don't think you can calculate an optimal tRFC as each memory IC is different, as an example B-Die can go below 300 easily but Hynix MFR cannot even at the same timings and everything.

 

I'd say stick with the default even though it's a bit loose but I doubt you'd see considerable performance jumps since you're locked at 2666Mhz on Intel, messing with tRFC can affect your stability heavily, if you are up to testing and verifying that it's stable then I guess you could lower it.

 

I don't know much about tRC, I forgot how that is supposed to work but it's not the same as tRFC that's for sure, and again, this is part of the DDR4 standard, both platforms have those values you're just looking at different things, and CPU-Z is definitely not showing you all of the DDR4 timings.

[Nena Trinity]

2 minutes ago, .Apex. said:

I don't think you can calculate an optimal tRFC as each memory IC is different, as an example B-Die can go below 300 easily but Hynix MFR cannot even at the same timings and everything.

 

I'd say stick with the default even though it's a bit loose but I doubt you'd see considerable performance jumps since you're locked at 2666Mhz on Intel, messing with tRFC can affect your stability heavily, if you are up to testing and verifying that it's stable then I guess you could lower it.

 

I don't know much about tRC, I forgot how that is supposed to work but it's not the same as tRFC that's for sure, and again, this is part of the DDR4 standard, both platforms have those values you're just looking at different things, and CPU-Z is definitely not showing you all of the DDR4 timings.

I am not gonna aim for maximum performance that is for sure, the first kit of RAM is a SK Hynix, it was able to OC up to 3600MHz CL18-19-19-39 fine from 2666MHz CL16-18-18-39 just fine on my AMD system the other kit is probably a trash bin B-die since its Samsung 3200MHz CL16-18-18-38 I wont bet much on these so considering all that the weakest link is the Hynix or B-die? I guess I gotta settle with the weaker kits reccomended minimum right? X-X

[.Apex.]

1 minute ago, Nena Trinity said:

I am not gonna aim for maximum performance that is for sure, the first kit of RAM is a SK Hynix, it was able to OC up to 3600MHz CL18-19-19-39 fine from 2666MHz CL16-18-18-39 just fine on my AMD system the other kit is probably a trash bin B-die since its Samsung 3200MHz CL16-18-18-38 I wont bet much on these so considering all that the weakest link is the Hynix or B-die? I guess I gotta settle with the weaker kits reccomended minimum right? X-X

Is the B-Die in the Intel PC? because as far as I know you cannot go above 2666Mhz since you're on B460 and a locked chip which doesn't allow memory overclocking, I think it's not worth optimizing the timings on the Intel platform as you're mostly limited by frequency, but you can if you want to, since it's B-Die then you should be able to get very low CL at 2666Mhz.

[Nena Trinity]

1 minute ago, .Apex. said:

Is the B-Die in the Intel PC? because as far as I know you cannot go above 2666Mhz since you're on B460 and a locked chip which doesn't allow memory overclocking, I think it's not worth optimizing the timings on the Intel platform as you're mostly limited by frequency, but you can if you want to, since it's B-Die then you should be able to get very low CL at 2666Mhz.

Funny enough at 1.35v both kits were at best to hit 13-15-15 and that is not very impressive...

[.Apex.]

1 minute ago, Nena Trinity said:

Funny enough at 1.35v both kits were at best to hit 13-15-15 and that is not very impressive...

Hmm that's strange even for the shittiest B-Die, are you sure it is B-Die? you could try lowering the CL alone and leave everything else at auto and see how that behaves, at 1.35V.

[Nena Trinity]

Just now, .Apex. said:

Hmm that's strange even for the shittiest B-Die, are you sure it is B-Die? you could try lowering the CL alone and leave everything else at auto and see how that behaves, at 1.35V.

Its 100% a Samsung, a B-Die? Well Buildzoid said in a video 3200MHz CL16 Samsungs are very often reject or garbage tier B-Die so I assume it could be.

[.Apex.]

4 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

Funny enough at 1.35v both kits were at best to hit 13-15-15 and that is not very impressive...

and that is 2666Mhz? I would expect that behavior from the Hynix kit which is most likely Hynix CJR, but not B-Die

[.Apex.]

Just now, Nena Trinity said:

Its 100% a Samsung, a B-Die? Well Buildzoid said in a video 3200MHz CL16 Samsungs are very often reject or garbage tier B-Die so I assume it could be.

Then it is not B-Die from what I can tell, try using Thaiphoon Burner to confirm what the chip is.

 

http://www.softnology.biz/files.html

 

[Nena Trinity]

Just now, .Apex. said:

and that is 2666Mhz? I would expect that behavior from the Hynix kit which is most likely Hynix CJR, but not B-Die

At 2666MHz none of them would go any lower, the one I suspect is a CJR is only marked as Kingston DRAM by CPU-Z while the G.SKILL kit is marked Samsung, funny enough my other kit of HyperX 3699MH CL17-19-19-39 is clearly marked as SK Hynix in CPU-Z...

[.Apex.]

2 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

At 2666MHz none of them would go any lower, the one I suspect is a CJR is only marked as Kingston DRAM by CPU-Z while the G.SKILL kit is marked Samsung, funny enough my other kit of HyperX 3699MH CL17-19-19-39 is clearly marked as SK Hynix in CPU-Z...

as I remember Samsung E-Die performs similarly to Hynix CJR so that could be the case, but even a garbage tier B-Die does better than this at low frequency

[Nena Trinity]

7 minutes ago, .Apex. said:

as I remember Samsung E-Die performs similarly to Hynix CJR so that could be the case, but even a garbage tier B-Die does better than this at low frequency

[xg32]

40 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

So them being COMPLETELY DIFRENT, that means messing with it like in Ryzen case is a bad idea?

 

For Ryzen the math should be 19 + 39 = 58, so for Intel how does one calculate the optimal tRFC? Or is default preferable?

thats not an intel amd thing, they are 2 different timings, intel still has both a trc and trfc (240 280 320 usally depending on memory speed), ur right about trc just being the 3rd and 4th timing added together.

 

another thing is ryzen seems to get 1T easier than intel

17 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

Its 100% a Samsung, a B-Die? Well Buildzoid said in a video 3200MHz CL16 Samsungs are very often reject or garbage tier B-Die so I assume it could be.

TIL, i  initially thought the 16-19-19 were the rejects (or at th, wonder if they even do 14-14-14, cause the 14-14-14 b-dies always seem to do 16-16-16, but appearantly those are CJRs.

[.Apex.]

4 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

Is this from two different PCs or one PC with two sticks? either way, one of them Hynix CJR on the right, and it's not determined which Samsung chip it is.. I think it's B-Die from looking at the part number?

[Nena Trinity]

2 minutes ago, xg32 said:

thats not an intel amd thing, they are 2 different timings, intel still has both a trc and trfc (240 280 320 usally depending on memory speed), ur right about trc just being the 3rd and 4th timing added together.

 

another thing is ryzen seems to get 1T easier than intel

TIL, i  initially thought the 16-19-19 were the rejects (or at th, wonder if they even do 14-14-14, cause the 14-14-14 b-dies always seem to do 16-16-16, but appearantly those are CJRs.

Wait why does CPU-Z? and Thaipoon Burner say Samsung? I agree that performance and behavior seems more like a Hynix CJR or C-Die which also explain why they function so perfectly with my other CJR kit with no stability issues.

[Nena Trinity]

Just now, .Apex. said:

Is this from two different PCs or one PC with two sticks? either way, one of them Hynix CJR on the right, and it's not determined which Samsung chip it is.. I think it's B-Die from looking at the part number?

Yep same PC both in the Intel system, the system has a 4x8GB setup while my Ryzen has a 2x16GB since ASRock are asshats and makes a board that refuse to run sticks in slot 1 and 3 any higher than 3066MHz! XD ((So I bought a larger capacity version of CJR since I knew they could hit 3600MHz most likely))

[.Apex.]

Just now, Nena Trinity said:

Yep same PC both in the Intel system, the system has a 4x8GB setup while my Ryzen has a 2x16GB since ASRock are asshats and makes a board that refuse to run sticks in slot 1 and 3 any higher than 3066MHz! XD ((So I bought a larger capacity version of CJR since I knew they could hit 3600MHz most likely))

The reason you're not overclocking well is because you're mixing different chips together, the weakest chip will be the limitation, since one of them is CJR then that's why can't go below CL13 at 2666Mhz, since you have 4 sticks check what the rest of them are

[Nena Trinity]

1 minute ago, .Apex. said:

The reason you're not overclocking well is because you're mixing different chips together, the weakest chip will be the limitation, since one of them is CJR then that's why can't go below CL13 at 2666Mhz, since you have 4 sticks check what the rest of them are

Before they were apart, while the HyperX 2666 sticks @3600 were in the AMD system the G.SKILL still refused to do any better than 13-15-15...

[.Apex.]

Just now, Nena Trinity said:

Before they were apart, while the HyperX 2666 sticks @3600 were in the AMD system the G.SKILL still refused to do any better than 13-15-15...

One stick of GSkill or were you using other sticks with it? anyway it could not be B-Die since it's not explicitly determined, it's kind of unknown what the chip is

[Nena Trinity]

1 minute ago, .Apex. said:

One stick of GSkill or were you using other sticks with it? anyway it could not be B-Die since it's not explicitly determined, it's kind of unknown what the chip is

Stick 2 and 4 are identical in Thaipoon Burner both does not specify other than it being a Samsung, its maybe a Samsung M-Die was it? If so is that the weaker link than the CJR? If so what would the lowest tRFC possibly go?

 

And just to verify 1 and 3 are HyperX CJR sticks which had same OC on primary timings.

 

Current OC profile MHz CL13-15-15-35-467-1T

[.Apex.]

6 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

Stick 2 and 4 are identical in Thaipoon Burner both does not specify other than it being a Samsung, its maybe a Samsung M-Die was it? If so is that the weaker link than the CJR? If so what would the lowest tRFC possibly go?

 

And just to verify 1 and 3 are HyperX CJR sticks which had same OC on primary timings.

 

Current OC profile MHz CL13-15-15-35-467-1T

I think it's safe to assume that CJR is the weakest link since those chips are particularly bad at low frequency since they cannot achieve low timings, they shine at higher frequency to offset their inability to achieve low timings, though I'm not sure how M-Die performs but it could be similar to CJR but I don't think they'd be worse than CJR at low frequency.

[.Apex.]

9 minutes ago, Nena Trinity said:

Stick 2 and 4 are identical in Thaipoon Burner both does not specify other than it being a Samsung, its maybe a Samsung M-Die was it? If so is that the weaker link than the CJR? If so what would the lowest tRFC possibly go?

 

And just to verify 1 and 3 are HyperX CJR sticks which had same OC on primary timings.

 

Current OC profile MHz CL13-15-15-35-467-1T

as for tRFC I think where it's at currently is "okay", you could try to lower it to less than 450 with increments of 10 and see if any of those values boots, 450/440/430/etc

[Nena Trinity]

Just now, .Apex. said:

I think it's safe to assume that CJR is the weakest link since those chips are particularly bad at low frequency since they cannot achieve low timings, they shine at higher frequency to offset their inability to achieve low timings, though I'm not sure how M-Die performs but it could be similar to CJR but I don't think they'd be worse than CJR at low frequency.

In that case would either of the two be able to do sub-400 on the trfc? Or is it VERY UNLIKELY? :I