Can this MOTU M2 run DT 990 600 ohm ?

[rice guru]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:44 PM, 1988fido said:

ok care to explain more?
so there is input impedance on the dac and output impedance.
ok which one is the one that should match the 600ohm of the headphones?

 

Basically anything will pair well with a 600 o headphone in regards to output impedance as the output impedance should be ideally below 60 ohms which is rare ish in modern gear for it to be even above 1 ohm

[CTR640]

Ohm is not the only one you should worry about, the spl nominance plays a factor too.

My DT880 and DT770 are both 250ohm and they are harder to drive. My Amiron Home is 250ohm too and it's much easier to drive and the measurement is a simple Samsung MP3 player to test their efficiency. Amiron Home has sensitivy of 102dB while the DT's 96dB or something.

[1988fido]

Ok guys now I need recommendations because Motu M2 out of stock everywhere.
I bought the DT 990 PRO 250ohm it sound amazing even on my onboard Audio (Maximus X hero) however my board leaks electrical noise if I use the back IO (so am using front for now) but still not perfect as when I tested the headphones at the shop it sound different but still an upgrade from my gaming headsets.

so I watched this video:
so should I wait the Motu m2 ( few wks or 1 month) or just suggest me something else that sounds good + can use it for mic

 

[rice guru]

2 hours ago, 1988fido said:

Ok guys now I need recommendations because Motu M2 out of stock everywhere.
I bought the DT 990 PRO 250ohm it sound amazing even on my onboard Audio (Maximus X hero) however my board leaks electrical noise if I use the back IO (so am using front for now) but still not perfect as when I tested the headphones at the shop it sound different but still an upgrade from my gaming headsets.

so I watched this video:
so should I wait the Motu m2 ( few wks or 1 month) or just suggest me something else that sounds good + can use it for mic

 

if you need something now hat should help this issue. the apple usb c dongle dac can power it to a pretty respectable volume level. testing it now it gets fairly loud.  only $10 and should be much cleaner than your onboard audio its a good $10 fix to hold you over until you get your new interface. 

[Psittac]

Personally I find reliable stat's hard to come by and difficult to understand when I find them so I just go to audio related places and ask for advice.  The follow up to that being I just have high power amplifiers so I'm not limited by technical restraint's any more.

 

How old is your PC?  I'm asking only because I had an issue with audio noise, like a really bad noise floor after I swapped power supplies, the old one had no problems then the new one was noisy af even though it was just usb to a dac.  I ended up going with a very expensive galvanic seperation (no physical connection) to get rid of the noise but after a few months when I went back to a usb link........ no noise.  So I'm thinking that some psu's might be noisy when new.  But this is a very uneducated assumption based off limited anecdotal evidence.  But I've seen even a seasoned head-fi youtuber brought to befuddlement by this issue, Joshua Valour.

 

I would normally agree that a usb dac situation should do the trick but in my case even the usb was noisey.  But as @rice guru said it's only $10 and it's the go to cheap usb dac.  I will just add that powering a pair of can's vs properly powering them are not the same thing (still learning what that means myself)

[1988fido]

On 1/31/2021 at 3:08 AM, rice guru said:

if you need something now hat should help this issue. the apple usb c dongle dac can power it to a pretty respectable volume level. testing it now it gets fairly loud.  only $10 and should be much cleaner than your onboard audio its a good $10 fix to hold you over until you get your new interface. 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 7:07 AM, Psittac said:

Personally I find reliable stat's hard to come by and difficult to understand when I find them so I just go to audio related places and ask for advice.  The follow up to that being I just have high power amplifiers so I'm not limited by technical restraint's any more.

 

How old is your PC?  I'm asking only because I had an issue with audio noise, like a really bad noise floor after I swapped power supplies, the old one had no problems then the new one was noisy af even though it was just usb to a dac.  I ended up going with a very expensive galvanic seperation (no physical connection) to get rid of the noise but after a few months when I went back to a usb link........ no noise.  So I'm thinking that some psu's might be noisy when new.  But this is a very uneducated assumption based off limited anecdotal evidence.  But I've seen even a seasoned head-fi youtuber brought to befuddlement by this issue, Joshua Valour.

 

I would normally agree that a usb dac situation should do the trick but in my case even the usb was noisey.  But as @rice guru said it's only $10 and it's the go to cheap usb dac.  I will just add that powering a pair of can's vs properly powering them are not the same thing (still learning what that means myself)

well for now I can use my front audio jack of the case they can give me enough sound , they advertise that front is amplified like the back io on my mobo.
this noise thing is weird , my pc is maybe 3 years old but i swapped the psu i had electrical problems in my room everything break so i bought a ups to solve it and swapped the dead psu.

my current psu is bad and make more noise than previous one but it make my pc run XD am planning to upgrade entire pc soon and  will only keep the case+ram+ssd
will get a seperate server machine and upgrade my gaming pc.(upgrade the ups)

so yeah will have to buy lots of stuff coming soon.

but for now , I decided to use the headphones on my pc like this and on my mac(sounds fine) till Motu M2 in stock. I think we can mark it as solved in 1-2 days if no one suggested something else

[Psittac]

7 hours ago, 1988fido said:

 

well for now I can use my front audio jack of the case they can give me enough sound , they advertise that front is amplified like the back io on my mobo.
this noise thing is weird , my pc is maybe 3 years old but i swapped the psu i had electrical problems in my room everything break so i bought a ups to solve it and swapped the dead psu.

my current psu is bad and make more noise than previous one but it make my pc run XD am planning to upgrade entire pc soon and  will only keep the case+ram+ssd
will get a seperate server machine and upgrade my gaming pc.(upgrade the ups)

so yeah will have to buy lots of stuff coming soon.

but for now , I decided to use the headphones on my pc like this and on my mac(sounds fine) till Motu M2 in stock. I think we can mark it as solved in 1-2 days if no one suggested something else

250 ohm sounds way easier to drive and I wouldn't suggest anything more.

 

Maybe get a 3.5mm extension and plug it into the back, no legitimate reason I would personally feel better that way, and it gives another point of separation incase you forget you have your can's on, broke the audio jacks 3 PC's ago cause I forgot I had the headset on and went to the bathroom, haven't used front audio since.

 

Is the sound like coil whine?  I would say for sure it's the PSU.  That's what happened with mine as I said, but my replacement PSU was a rather expensive and highly regarded model.  Give it some time and it should break in (very limited experience)

 

Final note: Now you'll have the experience under your belt of going from onboard to external, get some good time on each before you reach a conclusion.  Just remember that everyone's ear's are different.

[1988fido]

just update for the sake of documentation if someone wondered how the Motu M2 sound with Byerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250ohm

Its amazing.
focusrite 2i2 2nd gen wasn't even close to what i hear now.
focusrite solo
and soon will test fiio k5 or k3 to use as portable DAC with phone.

1- the amplification is loud enough and there is plenty of headroom. (my pc is on 70%, volume nob on Motu is 70% and the itunes is 60% , VLC 55%)
if i put everything 100% i cant put it on my head literally so loud that i take it instantly off.
songs tested:
main-title-legends-of-azeroth  (world of warcraft)
The benchmark Song - Single (Elric phares)
Zweihänder - Ear Slayer - 01 Video Games (logan tek syndicate guy)
tested all of them from itunes,and vlc

2- the onboard audio cant even compare. so the Motu m2 screen very clear and bright enough to the point its easily visible but not annoying in Dark room well balanced.

3- the focusrite was bad in comparison in the lows somehow it wasnt giving me flat EQ.
the Sound blaster from creative was booming everything which annoyed me because i listened to those songs many times in many devices and i know how they should sound but using my headphones to the sound blaster was like using gaming headsets all over again  

4- I still didnt buy a mic yet am not sure if I used a hard to drive mic will effect how much it can power the headphones or will there be any electric noise leak etc.. will update soon once I get a mic ,am thinking to buy Rode podmic.
 

[The Flying Sloth]

2 hours ago, 1988fido said:

just update for the sake of documentation if someone wondered how the Motu M2 sound with Byerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250ohm

Its amazing.
focusrite 2i2 2nd gen wasn't even close to what i hear now.
focusrite solo
and soon will test fiio k5 or k3 to use as portable DAC with phone.

1- the amplification is loud enough and there is plenty of headroom. (my pc is on 70%, volume nob on Motu is 70% and the itunes is 60% , VLC 55%)
if i put everything 100% i cant put it on my head literally so loud that i take it instantly off.
songs tested:
main-title-legends-of-azeroth  (world of warcraft)
The benchmark Song - Single (Elric phares)
Zweihänder - Ear Slayer - 01 Video Games (logan tek syndicate guy)
tested all of them from itunes,and vlc

2- the onboard audio cant even compare. so the Motu m2 screen very clear and bright enough to the point its easily visible but not annoying in Dark room well balanced.

3- the focusrite was bad in comparison in the lows somehow it wasnt giving me flat EQ.
the Sound blaster from creative was booming everything which annoyed me because i listened to those songs many times in many devices and i know how they should sound but using my headphones to the sound blaster was like using gaming headsets all over again  

4- I still didnt buy a mic yet am not sure if I used a hard to drive mic will effect how much it can power the headphones or will there be any electric noise leak etc.. will update soon once I get a mic ,am thinking to buy Rode podmic.
 

Your software volume controls need to be at 100% to avoid reduction in bit-depth
Just turn down the hardware volume controls to compensate.

[Psittac]

Yeah what @The Flying Sloth said, the only way you can digitally reduce volume is by removing information from the feed so adjust it on the dac or amp.

 

Another comment I have is that I believe sheer volume isn't the only metric of a properly powered pair of cans, what that means I'm not certain but I've heard that a few times in a few places.

 

But thank you for the update, that's what I love about this hobby is actually doing something so you can understand what someone is saying when they say sound stage or imaging etc.  Just remember that everyone's ears are different.

[The Flying Sloth]

6 hours ago, Psittac said:

Another comment I have is that I believe sheer volume isn't the only metric of a properly powered pair of cans, what that means I'm not certain but I've heard that a few times in a few places.

I think I can explain this a little for you, 

Think of it this way
A Ferrari might go the same speed down a track as a Lada with an old V8 stuffed in it, but while one is clearly a feat of precision engineering and perfectionism the other is an ugly hodgepodge that on paper might look like just as good of a car.

Sure volume is important but without maintaining the integrity of the audio (IE, if it sounds like shit) it's an entirely useless metric

[H713]

Generally speaking, the headphone amps in an audio interface could be described as "acceptable", but that's about as nice to them as I'll be. It's well-known that the Scarlett in particular has a rather mediocre headphone amp. Being realistic, it's amazing that they can get as much into those boxes for $150 as they can.

 

The M2 is almost certainly the best interface in its price range. Some of us over at DiyAudio did some measurements on the M2, and the line inputs / line outputs have extremely low noise and distortion. It's a good candidate for use as a measurement tool (within its limitations, that is). 

ASR did some measurements on the headphone amp as well. Distortion looks good, but it's rather limited in power. 22mW into 300 ohms isn't great, especially when we consider having dynamic headroom. I do find it interesting that it delivers about the same amount of power into 33 ohms as into 300 ohms. That's a little unusual.

 

Now that said, this is pathetic compared to even something like the O2 headphone amplifier, which is very easy to outperform these days, especially now that the OPA1656 has been released (which is a bit of a game changer in the audio op-amp world). I've been meaning to design a headphone amp around the OPA1656, but I don't use headphones very often these days so my motivation hasn't been there. 

 

So IMO, the M2 is a fantastic DAC / ADC for the price, but if you already own a good DAC, know that in buying the M2 you're probably buying about a $2 headphone amplifier, but that's still a big step above what's built into a computer motherboard (which is probably like a $0.80 headphone amp at best). 

 

Also, the mic preamps in the M2 are fine. They aren't bad, but it's not like they're a Neve / Focusrite ISA / API. Good enough for podcasting though.

 

 

 

[1988fido]

..

[1988fido]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:48 AM, The Flying Sloth said:

I think I can explain this a little for you, 

Think of it this way
A Ferrari might go the same speed down a track as a Lada with an old V8 stuffed in it, but while one is clearly a feat of precision engineering and perfectionism the other is an ugly hodgepodge that on paper might look like just as good of a car.

Sure volume is important but without maintaining the integrity of the audio (IE, if it sounds like shit) it's an entirely useless metric

 

On 2/14/2021 at 4:40 AM, H713 said:

 

So IMO, the M2 is a fantastic DAC / ADC for the price, but if you already own a good DAC, know that in buying the M2 you're probably buying about a $2 headphone amplifier, but that's still a big step above what's built into a computer motherboard (which is probably like a $0.80 headphone amp at best). 

 

Also, the mic preamps in the M2 are fine. They aren't bad, but it's not like they're a Neve / Focusrite ISA / API. Good enough for podcasting though.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 5:29 AM, Psittac said:

Yeah what @The Flying Sloth said, the only way you can digitally reduce volume is by removing information from the feed so adjust it on the dac or amp.

 

what do you guys recommend for portable Dac  ?

i want something to use on my laptop/phone etc.. with the same headphones. same price range as the Motu M2 is my budget (170$-200$)

[CTR640]

What about Fiio Q3? 

[rice guru]

13 hours ago, 1988fido said:

 

 

what do you guys recommend for portable Dac  ?

i want something to use on my laptop/phone etc.. with the same headphones. same price range as the Motu M2 is my budget (170$-200$)

The xduoo xd05 basic is pretty great at this price point should have enough power to drive a 250 ohm 990. the ifi idsd bl nano is also a good option @$200

[AsapLoki420]

On 1/26/2021 at 7:06 PM, Psittac said:

I hear a lot of people underestimating what it takes to drive a 600ohm headphone.  To give you an idea of how much power my dt880 600ohm are currently running on my amplifier delivers 8500mw at 47 ohm's and only 600mw at 600ohm.  It's a stereo amplifier that is capable of outputting the entire amplifier into the headphone jack.  And that's at atleast 3/4 volume to get a loud experience.  With that setup you will be maxing everything in the chain.

 

Can you drive them on the MOTU? Probably. Should you? Probably not.

 

Here is a picture of what's currently driving mine      <========

 

I would go for the 250ohm and you should be fine

 

*edit: I just tried them on my dac/amp which output's 640mw at 32ohm single ended and there is just no comparison.  It CAN get an acceptable volume but it's just thin in so many area's, when I switch back to my amp it's full and rich.  Being able to drive a pair of headphones and drive them properly are two different things.

 

The entire point of a high impedance headphone is that you're going to push it with a ton of juice, if you don't have that juice and don't plan on having it in the future there is absolutely no reason to go high impedance.

Who asked?

[Tony31]

On 2/13/2021 at 4:40 PM, H713 said:

Generally speaking, the headphone amps in an audio interface could be described as "acceptable", but that's about as nice to them as I'll be. It's well-known that the Scarlett in particular has a rather mediocre headphone amp. Being realistic, it's amazing that they can get as much into those boxes for $150 as they can.

 

The M2 is almost certainly the best interface in its price range. Some of us over at DiyAudio did some measurements on the M2, and the line inputs / line outputs have extremely low noise and distortion. It's a good candidate for use as a measurement tool (within its limitations, that is). 

ASR did some measurements on the headphone amp as well. Distortion looks good, but it's rather limited in power. 22mW into 300 ohms isn't great, especially when we consider having dynamic headroom. I do find it interesting that it delivers about the same amount of power into 33 ohms as into 300 ohms. That's a little unusual.

 

Now that said, this is pathetic compared to even something like the O2 headphone amplifier, which is very easy to outperform these days, especially now that the OPA1656 has been released (which is a bit of a game changer in the audio op-amp world). I've been meaning to design a headphone amp around the OPA1656, but I don't use headphones very often these days so my motivation hasn't been there. 

 

So IMO, the M2 is a fantastic DAC / ADC for the price, but if you already own a good DAC, know that in buying the M2 you're probably buying about a $2 headphone amplifier, but that's still a big step above what's built into a computer motherboard (which is probably like a $0.80 headphone amp at best). 

 

Also, the mic preamps in the M2 are fine. They aren't bad, but it's not like they're a Neve / Focusrite ISA / API. Good enough for podcasting though.

 

 

 

Hey Fella,

How did you get the 22mW and 300 ohms? Motu don’t specify any info but 115dB Dynamic range. I tried getting the Voltage and Current from that with a Calculator, is that alright to do?

[H713]

On 6/3/2023 at 6:52 PM, Tony31 said:

Hey Fella,

How did you get the 22mW and 300 ohms? Motu don’t specify any info but 115dB Dynamic range. I tried getting the Voltage and Current from that with a Calculator, is that alright to do?

That came from the ASR tests for the M2.

 

Yes, you can calculate both the RMS voltage and current from those numbers quite easily, assuming a resistive load. 

[HAL90000]

So as an audiophile I can tell you two things- If you just want to do voice related stuff, yes, you can hook these up to an interface or that Motu, and it'll be a passable experience, but it will be quiet, thin, frail sounding, and you will likely get clipping with extreme dynamics. All of that is bad and if you're going down that route buy much cheaper headphones that are in line with that setup.

If you want to use 600 Ohm headphones you're going to need something with a lot more power. Honestly IMO with headphones of that calibre it's pointless to get a model with that kind of impedance especially considering Beyerdynamic makes similar cans at 70 Ohms or so iirc. Much better choice and will probably play much nicer with cheaper lower power gear.

If you want to enjoy music properly on headphones, it's important to get something that's meant for listening to music and doesn't have the lifeless clinical sound of an audio interface. It doesn't have to be expensive but it does have to be tastefully matched to the headphones you're using both in the character of the sound and the output power. Some suggestions that come to mind are a Fiio K7 and Sennheiser HD600/HD6XX/HD650 or that same amp with Hifiman Sundara, or even HE400SE if you want to save a few bucks. Those are good pairings. 

One headphone that is surprisingly amazing sounding and can be driven easily that I really like is the Shure 840A.  You can get them for just over $100 USD and they sound 90% as good as HD600s which cost 3x as much with bass that is arguably more transparent and has a nicer texture. HD600's win for vocals though. If you paired the Shure 840A with an IFI Uno you're looking at a little over $200+tax vs $500+tax for the HD600 and the Fiio K7. Difference in audio quality is IMO arguably below 10-15% and with some tracks the cheaper setup wins.

[Psittac]

On 6/4/2023 at 9:50 PM, H713 said:

That came from the ASR tests for the M2.

 

Yes, you can calculate both the RMS voltage and current from those numbers quite easily, assuming a resistive load. 

So it's a dynamic load?  I don't understand a lot but what I gather is that some frequencies will receive enough power while others will lack.  Is that what you're getting at?  This is what I experienced when testing my dt880-600 on various forms of amplification, or at least what I would assume.  It's difficult to remember but things became boomy when under driven and as that cleared up the bass was just muddy until properly driven.