Dare I say it, but I think you're all using fans wrong.

[thrasher_565]

22 minutes ago, Chen G said:

I know about the raven but but seriously silverstone makes the ugliest cases, they're not like cheap plastic low quality ugly but they're like, tasteless no designer with proper artistic background ugly.

 

Gamer's Nexus also showed how you don't need the 90 degree rotation to have Raven airflow, and that's basically what the Mac Pro does as I mentioned in OP. It's just that most people think more fans + more holes = better cooling and case manufacturers must pander to that perception  rather than what is actually cooler.

 

All you really need is a case with a triple 140 on the front with good intake, no other holes except the traditional 120 exhaust, and some special bracket that turns the unused expansion slots into a 120 fan mount. There you go that's your Raven without the 90 degree rotation.

 

Instead we get these crazy cases with holes on top, holes on bottom, holes going side ways, just tones of wasted airflow.

 

I scrolled through your build log, yea there's nothing innately more efficient about 200mm fans, in fact I'm pretty sure the best 120mm fans are more efficient at the same RPM. It's just that you need more of them for the same airflow, and that's more expensive, and takes up more space (because of wasted space in the frame and fan hub). So if you can afford to stick in 2x480 rads with 8x120 fans, that's certainly a substitute for 2x200mm fans. (if you can also somehow solve the proximity with radiator problem)

haha funny thing in my caselabes th10 case were i had like i wanted the most fans in there and i did mount a fan to the pci slot....well like 38 fans is nuts?

 

 

ya the pc space is kinda wearied but its business as normal. never make the best case because they wont be making cases down the road so there allwes something to be improved on. some times they make a problem to sell you the solution. cases are not getting better year after year like they make you think. kinda like adds about tooth brushes makes you think they "improved" year after year....  also more fans holes means selling more fans. the 011 is perfect. 10 fans when the norm was 5-7. case are designated around aio.

 

psus can all be sff but they like selling them at a premium. we dont need psu fans now a days  they never spin up......

Edited May 24, 2020 by thrasher_565

[thrasher_565]

hmm i got a snareo. so 3x 360 rads +9x $25 fans say the rad is $75 each to total $450

 

now in sted of buying $25 fans you get 3 more rads for a total $450 and say you put 1$ fans on them. witch do you think would out preform?

Edited May 24, 2020 by thrasher_565

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chen G said:

I know about the raven but but seriously silverstone makes the ugliest cases, they're not like cheap plastic low quality ugly but they're like, tasteless no designer with proper artistic background ugly.

 

I have this case. SilverStone TJ07 This is not my build however. Mine is empty. 

The outside is smooth and black. Nice curves, everything you'd want in your woman or PC.

Very nice interior design, big fat viewing side panel. On or off the Silverstone TJ07 can be very sexy.

It's not always the front grill or top that makes a case look nice, but what you stuff inside.

I get a boner looking at these pictures. I should put mine back into use, but I swap hardware too often to run a case any more.

Shaaawwwiiiinnngg!! 

[DJ46]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:30 AM, Chen G said:

1. Do not try to achieve unnecessarily low temperatures, cooling fetish is a real thing but you gotta remember the reduction in performance is exponential as your heat sink gets cooler.

You have raised some very interesting points but this is the one I object to the most.

Yes, low temperatures reduce the "performance" of your cooling system. But they also increase the actual performance of your PC.

I don't care if the cooling system in my PC runs at a 70% or a 90% efficiency. What I care about is that modern components have boost tables based on temperature, and the lower you can get them the more performance you get out of them.

And even if you overclock them manually and ignore the boost tables, temperatures absolutely have an effect on stability so you can get a better overclock with lower temperatures if you go that route.

This approach does not necessarily have to be more noisy. Sure, a watercooling radiator may not be able do dissipate as much heat when the temperature delta is lower, but you can add another radiator.

 

It basically all boils down to a triangle of low noise, performance and price. You can pick 2. Cooling overclocked components quietly won't be cheap, saving money on fans while maintaining low RPM requires your aproach of focusing on the efficiency of the cooling system (which includes higher temps than you might want), or you can just make it loud and lower your temps.

There you go. Three apporaches, none of which is actually wrong. And that's without mentioning looks, which absolutely is a reason why some people won't stick tape and cardboard to their PC and will instead run more fans with LEDs in them.

[Chen G]

8 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I have this case. SilverStone TJ07 This is not my build however. Mine is empty. 

The outside is smooth and black. Nice curves, everything you'd want in your woman or PC.

Very nice interior design, big fat viewing side panel. On or off the Silverstone TJ07 can be very sexy.

It's not always the front grill or top that makes a case look nice, but what you stuff inside.

I get a boner looking at these pictures. I should put mine back into use, but I swap hardware too often to run a case any more.

Shaaawwwiiiinnngg!! 

This could not possibly be more 2002

[Chen G]

4 hours ago, DJ46 said:

You have raised some very interesting points but this is the one I object to the most.

Yes, low temperatures reduce the "performance" of your cooling system. But they also increase the actual performance of your PC.

No they do not, not past a certain point, hence "unnecessary", meaning past a point at which it would make a difference in performance.

4 hours ago, DJ46 said:

I don't care if the cooling system in my PC runs at a 70% or a 90% efficiency. What I care about is that modern components have boost tables based on temperature, and the lower you can get them the more performance you get out of them.

Then you'd get it below the temperature such that you still get full boost.

4 hours ago, DJ46 said:

And even if you overclock them manually and ignore the boost tables, temperatures absolutely have an effect on stability so you can get a better overclock with lower temperatures if you go that route.

This approach does not necessarily have to be more noisy. Sure, a watercooling radiator may not be able do dissipate as much heat when the temperature delta is lower, but you can add another radiator.

But that costs more money, money which you could've used for better parts rather than higher overclock.

4 hours ago, DJ46 said:

It basically all boils down to a triangle of low noise, performance and price. You can pick 2. Cooling overclocked components quietly won't be cheap, saving money on fans while maintaining low RPM requires your aproach of focusing on the efficiency of the cooling system (which includes higher temps than you might want), or you can just make it loud and lower your temps.

There you go. Three apporaches, none of which is actually wrong.

Just because there is such a triangle, doesn't mean every build is optimized. Take my build for example, I could've added something more expensive to it that does not reduce noise or improve performance. It would then be a less optimized build because it is only more expensive for no improvement. So just because somebody else doesn't care about noise levels, doesn't mean they are already optimized for cost+ performance. Maybe he could've have had less noise at no cost, if some of these principles were followed.

4 hours ago, DJ46 said:

And that's without mentioning looks, which absolutely is a reason why some people won't stick tape and cardboard to their PC and will instead run more fans with LEDs in them.

Well the cardboard and packing tape aren't visible from the outside. But I am exploring a more aesthetically appealing solution to sealing the case this time around.

[Guest]

Wait, you make fun of my case is so 2002 but you have duck tape and cardboard holding yours together??

 

That's so ghetto. Im from the ghetto and still dont have cardboard and ducktape holding my shit together!!!

 

Thanks for that laugh. Been a good long while.

[DJ46]

(I ended up rambling quite a bit, I apologize in advance.)

 

I really would've preferred if you took my comment as a whole without going after the individual points. My point was that not being optimized doesn't mean a build is wrong. There are a plethora of reasons why someone might pick a certain component or configuration.

If you want to got after individual points:

21 hours ago, Chen G said:

No they do not, not past a certain point, hence "unnecessary", meaning past a point at which it would make a difference in performance.

When overclocking, temperatures make a difference down to well below ambient. Otherwise there would be no point in extreme overclocking with liquid nitrogen/helium. It is definitely not a 24/7 thing, but it does get more performance out of the components.

21 hours ago, Chen G said:

Then you'd get it below the temperature such that you still get full boost.

GPU Boost 3.0 give you full boost when you're below 50°C. That's well below the 70°C you're proposing.

21 hours ago, Chen G said:

But that costs more money, money which you could've used for better parts rather than higher overclock.

Not after a certain point. If you want more performance and you already have the top of the line components, you can only overclock.

And before you say anything, yes, a top of the line component is not "optimal" if your definition of optimal is price to noise to performance. But if you're running a resolution/headset that gives you a better experience if you have more performance, than it matters.

21 hours ago, Chen G said:

Just because there is such a triangle, doesn't mean every build is optimized. Take my build for example, I could've added something more expensive to it that does not reduce noise or improve performance. It would then be a less optimized build because it is only more expensive for no improvement. So just because somebody else doesn't care about noise levels, doesn't mean they are already optimized for cost+ performance. Maybe he could've have had less noise at no cost, if some of these principles were followed.

That is why I mentioned looks after the section you're quoting. Yes, RGB fans make a PC more expensive without reducing noise or increasing performance. Hell, they can be louder than the fans that come with your case.

I am aware than not every build is optimized as much as it can be. I used to be pretty disappointed when most people wouldn't bother adjusting fan curves on their case fans/GPU/CPU cooler. I agree that a lot of people could do more with what they already have to have a quieter PC or to squeeze a bit more performance out of it.

But a lot of people simply don't care. We might not like it, but that is definitely how it is. If I build a PC for a friend and don't have enough time before they pick it up to check the temperatures and adjust fan speeds, I know for sure that they never will.

You also have to consider how difficult it can be. Your own post goes against every guide that can be found when it comes to optimizing a PC's cooling system. I can tell you from experience that if someone takes the time to research this, they will find tons of differing opinions and pick the one that is the most common and makes sense to them. That will most likely be either a balanced setup (but they have 140mm intakes and 120mm exhausts and you can bet on the fact they won't bother to go through matching the airflow of these fans at different RPM) or a positive pressure setup. (Whether they will actually clean the filters on their intakes is another story. The fact that not doing it negates the point of such a setup will be completely lost on them.)

An enthusiast might listen to you and consider applying some of your ideas, but they might also just plain disagree or decide that they want some more bling in their system and spend their free time and money adding sleeved cable extensions. Those definitely don't look good on an excel sheet adding up the cost of the system and comparing it to noise levels and gained fps, but damn they look good in the case.

21 hours ago, Chen G said:

Well the cardboard and packing tape aren't visible from the outside. But I am exploring a more aesthetically appealing solution to sealing the case this time around.

This part was definitely tongue in cheek. I don't doubt that you will find a better way to seal the case. I would also love to see more numbers about your setup - clockspeeds, temperatures, different tests, the time it takes for the system to reach max temp and then cool down... I love the concept, I just object to some of what you said.

 

My setup is very different to almost any build you can imagine and definitely not optimal by your definition. It doesn't even follow the triangle I myself proposed.

It has gone from strict price/performance to let's try ITX to try balancing noise and performance on a low budget to a bunch of different cases just for looks and has come closer and closer to just noise optimization. Currently it's not that powerful or as quiet as I want it to be and it looks terrible. After sticking to a low budget for years I'm now going with watercooling and I'll end up sealing any component that has coil whine in a box while keeping the internal temperature down with a radiator inside, cooling the CPU, GPU and air in the case with a big radiator outside.

It is far from optimal and even I would consider it a total waste of money, if it weren't for the fact that listening to coil whine for a few minutes gives me a migraine and stops me from using a PC at all.

 

If an OEM starts building optimized PCs, fine. But as an enthusiast you can tune a PC perfectly to what you need. You might pick "optimization", someone else will choose looks. I picked noise.

[thrasher_565]

i think the mane point of the op was you may not need fans on your rad..... were all the posable test tested probably not. the goal was low noise, good temps and maybe save some money( the op has like $1000 mb) keep that in mind and was clear that he also picked the parts for looks too...