Radeon R9 290X hits $900 -- AnandTech

[Fetzie]

Still probbably bad, since AMD is getting a shit-ton of miners.

 

And when this mining craze moves on to ASICs and GPU mining becomes unprofitable due to the difficulty level increasing, the miners will buy ASICs, flood the market with cheap used AMD cards, and AMD will have lost a generation of sales to repeat customers.

[D3MON]

im still deciding between 270, 280, 290 or 290x, why? because an expensive card that pays for itself while your not gaming is better than a cheaper one that doesnt.

most games are amd titles now and they're forging a path with huma, mantle and trueaudio which to quote logan "is the best audio related gaming thing ive heard of".
nvidia as much as i liked them in the past is stuck with "im batman" and the farse which is physx which is nothing amazing (yet, i have my hopes for upcoming versions but it'll probably be another drop in the ocean), and they have cuda which when i have used made no difference in freemake (vegas 2 purposely decreases system performance if you turn it off in my experiance).

gsync and shadow play is good but its not worth paying the 20% premium most of the world outside the US has to pay, so im sorry that some us citizens and stores (that untill now you loved so much because you got stuff seriously cheaper than the rest of the world) are screwing over other US citizens but what goes around comes around, its a simple lesson to not take things for granted.

anyone from italy, netherlands want to provide prices (lowest and average) comparing brands? another thing ive noticed is that amd cards might range from 20% in price (a 280 might cost between £250-300), wheras an equivilant 770 might cost £300-400 a 33% difference. how can 1 nvidia card possibly justify costing 33% more than another.

imagine having an MSI $550 780ti.....and an asus version thats $733, da fuq?

[Kuzma]

Ummm to slightly jump on the bandwagon, I'll gladly sell my 290 to someone for $650 + P&P , got it in November so...

[AlwaysFSX]

It shows up as $700 for me...?

[Imaginaerum]

Nobody buy unless you strictly mine and ONLY mine lite coins. 780 Ti is a much better value and is faster in games.

Why isn't AMD doing anything? All they are doing is losing possible customers now and in the future.

PCper has a great video about his on their YT Channel. Nvidia is winning because their getting people into their Eco System(Gsync,PhysX,ShadowPlay)

 

 

I bet Nvidia is just loving this right now...Wonder how their sales are looking right now compared to AMD...

Has everybody forgot high school economics already? AMD's prices are high because everybody is buying all their cards, and I wonder if because of mining AMD is selling more than Nvidia. Nvidia probably likes that people who don't mine are now going to them (at least, more than previously). AMD must love the mining because everybody is buying their cards.

 

Unless bebbskadoo is being sarcastic, I can't tell. Also what should AMD do about it? Just not make graphics cards anymore? What a terrible business decision. I wouldn't be surprised if they started advertising FAST MINER cards if no one uses AMD for gaming anymore. They aren't losing any customers, all they've done is gained customers and probably will keep gaining them until cryptocurrency dies off, if ever. Then they could switch right back to gaming.

[Antistatic12]

What is even weirder is the 7990 at $1500USD. crazy. Not even the Titan Black edition will be that much........

 

[Ertman]

If this continue, I'll pobably be gettng Nvidia as my next card.

[thewhitestig]

In my country the AMD high end cards hold their MSRP prices but you really can't find them anywhere in stock.

[PortentousLad]

Sorry guys just checked and I have to say they're still the same price in Germany 340€ for 290 and 440 for 290x... well just lucky I guess

[matin94]

For some reason german prices acctually dropped in the last few weeks. (The aftermarket ones came out for 480€ and are now at 450€.) That means that we finally have better prices in Germany then in America. Great. (450*1,3= 585$ So an aftermarket Tri X R9 290x would be 580$ in germany. 

not many people mine as much in germany compare to the US. i dont think this was AMDs move, im pretty sure retailers are making more money off this

[Albatross]

INSANE!

[matin94]

What is even weirder is the 7990 at $1500USD. crazy. Not even the Titan Black edition will be that much........

7990.jpg

 

at one point in the UK, this card was £300/$500

[Vitalius]

I just want to point out to everyone why Europeans don't mine like the US and Canada do. 

Electricity prices. I pay $0.10 or so per kWh in Texas. I've heard of people paying as low as $0.05 per kWh in Canada. I'm sure that is reflected throughout most of this section of our continent.

Whereas, I've heard electricity prices in Germany and Sweden are around $0.40 (or higher) per kWh. That starts to eat profits real fast. 

 

Let's do math.

A 290X (since that's what I have data on) uses around 300w at full power (by itself).

300w is $0.03 per hour (converted from kWh) for me to run mining, but it's $0.12 for someone living in the EU (roughly).

 

I make $6 per day, roughly (they would too in Euros). 24 * $0.03 = $0.72, so I make $5.28.

24 * $0.12 = $2.88, which means they'd still make profit, just not nearly as much ($3.12 per day).

My numbers may be off, but I believe that's the general reason why things are as they are. Tack on VAT and it becomes even harder to start making a profit after the initial investment. Which, incidentally, is sort of like our current situation. How much would a 290X cost in the EU with VAT? Probably around $700.

Who knows, maybe this is giving the US/CA some of what the EU and AU feel when they pay VAT or other taxes. 

... And man does it suck.

[Antistatic12]

at one point in the UK, this card was £300/$500

yeah in Australia it was $600 at point, then you know what happened and the price shot right back up.

[beebskadoo]

I just want to point out to everyone why Europeans don't mine like the US and Canada do.

Electricity prices. I pay $0.10 or so per kWh in Texas. I've heard of people paying as low as $0.05 per kWh in Canada. I'm sure that is reflected throughout most of this section of our continent.

Whereas, I've heard electricity prices in Germany and Sweden are around $0.40 (or higher) per kWh. That starts to eat profits real fast.

My numbers may be off, but I believe that's the general reason why things are as they are.

I pay $0.06/kWh, (Ohio) and it's still not viable to mine. I think these miners should take investment classes and start treating it like a stock exchange rather than wasting time and money with GPU mining. They would make more money that way anyways. I don't see why anyone is even doing it at this point, you put in more than you get out of it. Why not spend that GPU horsepower on folding at home...

Just my opinion I suppose

[Vitalius]

I pay $0.06/kWh, (Ohio) and it's still not viable to mine. I think these miners should take investment classes and start treating it like a stock exchange rather than wasting time and money with GPU mining. They would make more money that way anyways. I don't see why anyone is even doing it at this point, you put in more than you get out of it. Why not spend that GPU horsepower on folding at home...

Just my opinion I suppose

And I don't understand why you say that at all.

I pay $0.10, as I said. I make $6 a day (roughly, if I were to immediately exchange the currency for USD) while paying $0.96 (400w total) in electricity to run my rig at 100% for 24 hours. 

Over 2 months, I've made $200 (I made $8 a day originally and only recently started making $6 a day) while mining off and on. Take out electricity and I've made $150 (roughly). 

How is that not getting anything back? 

Oh, and I bought my 290X to game on, which is why I only mine off and on. So there's no negative to start with because I would've bought this thing anyway meaning the extra $150 is just a nice bonus for now and pure profit for me. 

My point is: There's definitely a lot to get out of it. The 290X is very inefficient for mining (hash to watt ratio), but still gets plenty of profit, so 290's/280's are probably great.

[beebskadoo]

And I don't understand why you say that at all.

I pay $0.10, as I said. I make $6 a day (roughly, if I were to immediately exchange the currency for USD) while paying $0.96 (400w total) in electricity to run my rig at 100% for 24 hours.

Over 2 months, I've made $200 while mining off and on. Take out electricity and I've made $150 (roughly).

How is that not getting anything back?

Oh, and I bought my 290X to game on, which is why I only mine off and on. So there's no negative to start with because I would've bought this thing anyway meaning the extra $150 is just a nice bonus for now and pure profit for me.

My point is: There's definitely a lot to get out of it. The 290X is very inefficient for mining (hash to watt ratio), but still gets plenty of profit, so 290's/280's are probably great.

well I guess if you purchased the card when it was half the price as it is now you would see the return quicker. I guess it makes no sense for someone like me at this point to go out and but a new AMD card. I won't see the return.

[Vitalius]

well I guess if you purchased the card when it was half the price as it is now you would see the return quicker. I guess it makes no sense for someone like me at this point to go out and but a new AMD card. I won't see the return.

Ah, then yes. That makes more sense. Right now that's true. Wait for the prices to fall. If they ever do. 

And I'm not joking in that last sentence. Unless AMD ramps up production (doubtful), these are the new prices. Because mining isn't going away. And, for whatever reason, Nvidia sucks for it. So AMD is the only way to go. 

Or maybe they should just hurry up and make SCRYPT mining ASICs. I mean, they are already here, but they aren't popular yet. Not at all.

[beebskadoo]

Ah, then yes. That makes more sense. Right now that's true. Wait for the prices to fall. If they ever do.

And I'm not joking in that last sentence. Unless AMD ramps up production (doubtful), these are the new prices. Because mining isn't going away. And, for whatever reason, Nvidia sucks for it. So AMD is the only way to go.

Or maybe they should just hurry up and make SCRYPT mining ASICs. I mean, they are already here, but they aren't popular yet. Not at all.

when it gets to a point that asic mining is the only viable option I think the prices will go down. According to a lot of people that time isn't too far off .

The fear now is that when that happens the market will be flooded with all of these AMD cards for sale on the cheap. People buying them on eBay and they end up dying because they were pushed 24/7. That falls back on AMD, makes them look bad. Plus AMD isn't making money on the second hand cards so they lose potential customers.

Right now AMD is loving it, they're boasting almost but it's going to hurt them in the long run I think.

I still think it is smarter to just invest the 800 dollars into it, buy low and sell high, you wouldn't have to worry about upgrading or staying ahead of the game. Keep doing that for a few months and profit! Just keep a close eye on it.

[beebskadoo]

The prices are the way they are not because of lack of supply, it's because retailers are marking them up so much. That's evident when you see stock cards as much as watercooled cards. It's artificial. That's another thing that is hurting AMD right now. The fact that with each card released that targets a specific price that is set by AMD gets marked up 50% it makes gamers switch to the other side. Yeah AMD Is winning the mining market but they are losing customers in the gaming market. Which after all these are gaming cards...

[Vitalius]

when it gets to a point that asic mining is the only viable option I think the prices will go down. According to a lot of people that time isn't too far off .

The fear now is that when that happens the market will be flooded with all of these AMD cards for sale on the cheap. People buying them on eBay and they end up dying because they were pushed 24/7. That falls back on AMD, makes them look bad. Plus AMD isn't making money on the second hand cards so they lose potential customers.

Right now AMD is loving it, they're boasting almost but it's going to hurt them in the long run I think.

I still think it is smarter to just invest the 800 dollars into it, buy low and sell high, you wouldn't have to worry about upgrading or staying ahead of the game. Keep doing that for a few months and profit! Just keep a close eye on it.

I would agree but all the Scrypt currencies aren't following the same pattern that BTC did. If you look at their difficulties, they are making a wave form, rather than consistently coming up a hill. I believe this is because people keep making new coins. So the difficulty is never focused in one (like with BTC), and so GPU mining is always profitable.

I don't personally understand that. The only thing that hurts a processor running 24/7 is heat. A processor is only hurt/degrades in this case if it is being pushed beyond it's limits. For miners, we have the HW:0 stat that tells us when this is happening. It means the GPU is breaking down for whatever reason (too much voltage or heat or combination of the two). If we are getting HW, we aren't making money because the pools don't accept incorrect work. 

So, by that logic, all mining GPUs should be relatively fine even after mining consistently for long periods of time. Because if they are not maintained well enough (even if they are maintained in egg crates in a storage room), they won't be making money. 

My point is, worrying about these second hand GPUs failing, to me, seems silly. 

 

You are right about the second hand customers though. Think of it this way, if miners didn't exist, AMD would not have sold so many GPUs early and so few later. But they sold the same amount regardless, it was just distributed in a different fashion. You might say, "But people are going to Nvidia now because they are so expensive.", but the opposite will be true when all those extra mining GPUs get dumped into the market later and AMD is so cheap. Swings and Roundabouts, as they say.

 

That requires the ability to know when to sell and when to buy. And humans are emotional creatures, which means most of us suck at that. Whereas, mining is a fire and forget "you will make some kind of money" easy solution. 

 

The prices are the way they are not because of lack of supply, it's because retailers are marking them up so much. That's evident when you see stock cards as much as watercooled cards. It's artificial. That's another thing that is hurting AMD right now. The fact that with each card released that targets a specific price that is set by AMD gets marked up 50% it makes gamers switch to the other side. Yeah AMD Is winning the mining market but they are losing customers in the gaming market. Which after all these are gaming cards...

 

That is somewhat true. I believe it's both really. Think about it. Mining is all about efficiency for profit. Water cooled cards are not good for mining because they require a large investment (all the water cooling equipment such as pumps, reservoirs, radiators, plus the added maintenance) to run at all. 

That means they won't have a stock issue. Whereas, all other cards will. Don't get me wrong, they are definitely doing this to make money. But the thing that tipped them off that they could make money this way was the fact that the stock was low and people were buying them up. It was both basically. 

Eh. I don't think this will hurt AMD at all. As I said above, swings and roundabouts. It's just concentrating their profit in one quarter rather than distributing it over multiple ones.

[beebskadoo]

I would agree but all the Scrypt currencies aren't following the same pattern that BTC did. If you look at their difficulties, they are making a wave form, rather than consistently coming up a hill. I believe this is because people keep making new coins. So the difficulty is never focused in one (like with BTC), and so GPU mining is always profitable.

I don't personally understand that. The only thing that hurts a processor running 24/7 is heat. A processor is only hurt/degrades in this case if it is being pushed beyond it's limits. For miners, we have the HW:0 stat that tells us when this is happening. It means the GPU is breaking down for whatever reason (too much voltage or heat or combination of the two). If we are getting HW, we aren't making money because the pools don't accept incorrect work.

So, by that logic, all mining GPUs should be relatively fine even after mining consistently for long periods of time. Because if they are not maintained well enough (even if they are maintained in egg crates in a storage room), they won't be making money.

My point is, worrying about these second hand GPUs failing, to me, seems silly.

You are right about the second hand customers though. Think of it this way, if miners didn't exist, AMD would not have sold so many GPUs early and so few later. But they sold the same amount regardless, it was just distributed in a different fashion. You might say, "But people are going to Nvidia now because they are so expensive.", but the opposite will be true when all those extra mining GPUs get dumped into the market later and AMD is so cheap. Swings and Roundabouts, as they say.

That requires the ability to know when to sell and when to buy. And humans are emotional creatures, which means most of us suck at that. Whereas, mining is a fire and forget "you will make some kind of money" easy solution.

That is somewhat true. I believe it's both really. Think about it. Mining is all about efficiency for profit. Water cooled cards are not good for mining because they require a large investment (all the water cooling equipment such as pumps, reservoirs, radiators, plus the added maintenance) to run at all.

That means they won't have a stock issue. Whereas, all other cards will. Don't get me wrong, they are definitely doing this to make money. But the thing that tipped them off that they could make money this way was the fact that the stock was low and people were buying them up. It was both basically.

Eh. I don't think this will hurt AMD at all. As I said above, swings and roundabouts. It's just concentrating their profit in one quarter rather than distributing it over multiple ones.

AMD is still selling these cards to retailers at the same price they always have. The only positive is they are clearing things out quickly and are less concerned with storage space etc. Storage ain't cheap

But the downside is AMD won't make any money off of the second hand cards. Yes those second hand buyers will be put in amd's ecosystem but it's not like AMD actually will be making money off of them. It's not like they have a subscription fee once the card is purchased. Meanwhile, Nvidia has had however long to enjoy being the lower price alternative for gamers and all the benefits that come with it. Because Nvidia will be selling and making long term profit while AMD is enjoying a temporary boost.

I'm sure AMD had thought this out and has a strategy. If I were AMD I would be pissed at Newegg etc. For the insane prices

I hope the pricees go down soon because you know when AMD finally releases something that is priced competitively and performs on par or better the retail prices get jacked up and they no longer hold the price to performance crown, not by a long shot.

I think they should release compute cards specifically for mining to help offset some of the price hikes

[matin94]

yeah in Australia it was $600 at point, then you know what happened and the price shot right back up.

i have a 670, and im waiting for the STUPID MSI 290x lightining to be release, before this shit catches up to the EU. i cant wait to see 290X lightining vs everything, coz there are no voltage limits on that thing. i cant wait too excited.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h-LbvFckptY#t=58

[matin94]

I just want to point out to everyone why Europeans don't mine like the US and Canada do. 

Electricity prices. I pay $0.10 or so per kWh in Texas. I've heard of people paying as low as $0.05 per kWh in Canada. I'm sure that is reflected throughout most of this section of our continent.

Whereas, I've heard electricity prices in Germany and Sweden are around $0.40 (or higher) per kWh. That starts to eat profits real fast. 

 

Let's do math.

A 290X (since that's what I have data on) uses around 300w at full power (by itself).

300w is $0.03 per hour (converted from kWh) for me to run mining, but it's $0.12 for someone living in the EU (roughly).

 

I make $6 per day, roughly (they would too in Euros). 24 * $0.03 = $0.72, so I make $5.28.

24 * $0.12 = $2.88, which means they'd still make profit, just not nearly as much ($3.12 per day).

My numbers may be off, but I believe that's the general reason why things are as they are. Tack on VAT and it becomes even harder to start making a profit after the initial investment. Which, incidentally, is sort of like our current situation. How much would a 290X cost in the EU with VAT? Probably around $700.

Who knows, maybe this is giving the US/CA some of what the EU and AU feel when they pay VAT or other taxes. 

... And man does it suck.

i hate VAT T_T, 20% on everything i buy, if i want to buy a 780, i have to pay £60, FOR NO FUCKING REASON! seriously, thats around $100 more, just because of this shitty government who just likes to take money from anything, anything, i pay VAT on bread, and milk.

[Mindtrickz]

I'm not buying an inconsistent GPU. When Nvidia fixes their GPU's load baring problem, I'll consider them again. Until them, I'll only buy AMD.

The mining aspects are major pluses. Though I will not buy a GPU solely to mine. Games are too important to me.