Apple(s) to Apples Comparisons.

[Uttamattamakin]

The Mac Pro is not expensive.  As I think Luke refereed to on the Wan show.  What I present here is a good illustration for why Mac Pro is not expensive. 

 

A thing is expensive when it is being compared to other similar things.   For example say the CompanyX 1000W powersupply 80+ (insert metal)  cost $150.  While the GAMING version with user controllable RGB cost $450.  That gaming powersupply is expensive compared to  the non gaming version.   However, if company Y and Z an Q all make similar GAMING power supplies for $350-$500 then that power supply is not expensive. 

 

So what should Mac Pro be compared to?  For any workload that does not use Final Cut Pro... this'll do it.    If this computer is not for you then a Mac Pro likely isn't for you either.  Plus looking at it people programming for Nvidia CUDA GP GPU task should consider just getting something like this and learning to love the penguin. 


Agree?  Disagree? Something else? 
 

[NineEyeRon]

A Mac Pro is expensive if you buy it for the wrong reasons.

 

For me I really just need a half decent Mac book, all the benefits at a reasonable cost.

 

Buy it for the right reasons and it’s value for money indeed!

[Vishera]

I disagree,in the build you listed the GPUs are way more powerful and expensive than those in the Mac Pro,

Also the 32 core Thread Ripper 3970X is more powerful,cheaper and consumes significantly less power,

There is no reason to buy a Xeon W when Zen 2 Thread Rippers are here. (The Mac Pro uses Xeon W,but this applies to Xeon Platinum vs Epyc too)

[Vishera]

10 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I disagree,in the build you listed the GPUs are way more powerful and expensive than those in the Mac Pro,

Also the 32 core Thread Ripper 3970X is more powerful,cheaper and consumes significantly less power,

There is no reason to buy a Xeon W when Zen 2 Thread Rippers are here. (The Mac Pro uses Xeon W,but this applies to Xeon Platinum vs Epyc too)

Now i noticed that the bloated price is primarly because of the SSDs,

78TB of SSDs for $20,407.

While the Mac Pro has barely 8TB of SSDs.

[Sauron]

Why does that build have TWO XEONS? That's an extra 12k for something that the mac pro does not have...

 

Why are you using quadros for comparison?

 

Why does that build list 78TB worth of SSDs? Wtf? No wonder it's expensive when you're dropping 20k on storage alone...

 

Also system76 is notoriously overpriced.

 

So what, are you lying here just to make it look like the top end mac pro isn't overpriced?

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

Now i noticed that the bloated price is primarly because of the SSDs,

78TB of SSDs for $20,407.

While the Mac Pro has barely 8TB of SSDs.

And the second cpu.

[Vishera]

18 minutes ago, Sauron said:

And the second cpu.

Didn't notice that.

[Vishera]

Here is a better list,

Featuring 256GB of 3200MHz RAM,32 Cores,2 Quadro RTX,86TB of storage.

Cheaper and more powerful than the Mac.

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Threadripper 3970X 3.7 GHz 32-Core Processor	$1999.00 @ B&H
CPU Cooler	be quiet! Dark Rock Pro TR4 59.5 CFM CPU Cooler	$84.99 @ Amazon
Motherboard	Gigabyte TRX40 AORUS PRO WIFI ATX sTRX4 Motherboard	$399.99 @ Amazon
Memory	Corsair Vengeance LPX 256 GB (8 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory	$1219.99 @ Amazon
Storage	Kingston KC2000 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$368.09 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Video Card	PNY Quadro RTX 8000 48 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)	$5537.99 @ Amazon
Video Card	PNY Quadro RTX 8000 48 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)	$5537.99 @ Amazon
Case	Thermaltake Level 20 ATX Full Tower Case	$1081.07 @ Amazon
Power Supply	EVGA SuperNOVA T2 1600 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply	$434.99 @ SuperBiiz
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$19563.66
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-12-21 08:35 EST-0500

 

[Uttamattamakin]

30 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Here is a better list,

Featuring 256GB of 3200MHz RAM,32 Cores,2 Quadro RTX,86TB of storage.

Cheaper and more powerful than the Mac.

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Threadripper 3970X 3.7 GHz 32-Core Processor	$1999.00 @ B&H
CPU Cooler	be quiet! Dark Rock Pro TR4 59.5 CFM CPU Cooler	$84.99 @ Amazon
Motherboard	Gigabyte TRX40 AORUS PRO WIFI ATX sTRX4 Motherboard	$399.99 @ Amazon
Memory	Corsair Vengeance LPX 256 GB (8 x 32 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory	$1219.99 @ Amazon
Storage	Kingston KC2000 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$368.09 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Video Card	PNY Quadro RTX 8000 48 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)	$5537.99 @ Amazon
Video Card	PNY Quadro RTX 8000 48 GB Video Card (2-Way SLI)	$5537.99 @ Amazon
Case	Thermaltake Level 20 ATX Full Tower Case	$1081.07 @ Amazon
Power Supply	EVGA SuperNOVA T2 1600 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply	$434.99 @ SuperBiiz
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$19563.66
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-12-21 08:35 EST-0500

 

PC Part picker does not include. 

1. The cost of labor in building it. 
2. The cost of support for it for at least a 1 year warranty. 
3. On going software development of a semicustom OS (Pop OS a fork of Ubuntu made by and for System 76 although you can run it on any PC of course.) 
    

Those things alone at least double the cost of the computer. 

 

53 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Why does that build have TWO XEONS? That's an extra 12k for something that the mac pro does not have...

 

Why are you using quadros for comparison?

 

Why does that build list 78TB worth of SSDs? Wtf? No wonder it's expensive when you're dropping 20k on storage alone...

 

Also system76 is notoriously overpriced.

 

So what, are you lying here just to make it look like the top end mac pro isn't overpriced?

My point is for computers:

Function determines expense.

 

Like the 80+ (bronze/silver/gold) power supply for 150  VS the GAMING  RGB edition for 450... when all you need is a power supply for a box that will sit on a shelf in a closet.

 

I am not saying there is no... Apple Tax... for the exact same parts.   That is not the same as saying the computer is "expensive".   Mac pro isn't a gaming computer, it is not a casual use daily driver.  It is not a business desktop for cubicles workers to fill out TPS reports on.  

 

If you are a scientist or engineer looking do to high performance computing, or a TV or movie editor looking do do their work in a Linux/Unix environment there is never any  such a thing as "too much" power.   At the price point of $50 K  Spending another $18K to get even more power ... is just another line item for your NIH or NSF grant application or corporate budget.   The price is almost no object if the object will make you money. 

 

From that perspective for the same function Mac Pro is not expensive when compared to computers which will full fill a similar function to it.  

As for the config I posted having more powerful graphics.  That is debatable.    A top Spec Mac Pro has 4 Custom AMD GPU's plus the Afterburner card for Pro Res video editing.  That is proprietary... but for that specific use case... for now... that beats NVenc.   Then that comes down to the software you use.   For PC gamers that doesn't matter ...but this computer isn't for PC gamers. 
 

[williamcll]

If you want that raw processing power here's a better build that costs less than your build. More CPU, GPU, VRAM and a faster overall SSD speed.

[Vishera]

31 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

• The cost of labor in building it. 

I am pretty sure that that HP,Dell,and iBuyPower don't charge $10K+ for building computers and servers,Dell servers are cheap compared to the Mac Pro.

And if i build it myself it's free.

31 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

The cost of support for it for at least a 1 year warranty. 

Aren't warranty and support free for a limited time?

That can be extended with money but that's optional.

And if i build it myself i am the support of myself.

31 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

On going software development of a semicustom OS (Pop OS a fork of Ubuntu made by and for System 76 although you can run it on any PC of course.) 

??????

I am pretty sure the software won't cost more than $1000,which is nothing compared to the cost of the components,

And you can use free software,cheap software or go with Hackintosh.

31 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Those things alone at least double the cost of the computer. 

I just proved it false.

31 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

A top Spec Mac Pro has 4 Custom AMD GPU's

Those are just Radeon VII based GPUs in dual GPU cards.

We all know that NVIDIA cards are way more powerful and expensive than AMD cards.

And you used 4 cards while the Mac Pro has only 2.

[Vishera]

23 minutes ago, williamcll said:

If you want that raw processing power here's a better build that costs less than your build. More CPU, GPU, VRAM and a faster overall SSD speed.

If you want to go this route i will recommend the 64 Core Epyc CPU,and hard drives are still kings in the professional and server space.

And why 4 Quadros? 1 Quadro = 2 Vega GPUs,the Quadro RTX 8000 is based on the RTX TITAN.

[williamcll]

4 minutes ago, Vishera said:

If you want to go this route i will recommend the 64 Core Epyc CPU,and hard drives are still kings in the professional and server space.

And why 4 Quadros? 1 Quadro = 2 Vega GPUs,the Quadro RTX 8000 is based on the RTX TITAN.

I can't find a website that could fit all the specifications that I want. Newegg was the closest but they don't offer the one 7742 8*256GB RAM setup. They also have 3 years warranty.

4 quadros to match two Vega VII pro duos, more cores and more RAM.

 

We could just wait and see Linus' 7742 build soon.

[Vishera]

18 minutes ago, williamcll said:

4 quadros to match two Vega VII pro duos, more cores and more RAM.

That doesn't match the Vega VII Pro Duos,it's way more powerful,

Each Vega VII Pro Duo has two Radeon VII based GPUs,

and each Quadro RTX 8000 is based on the RTX TITAN.

So x4 RTX TITAN based GPUs will destroy the x4 Radeon VII based GPUs.

[williamcll]

3 minutes ago, Vishera said:

That doesn't match the Vega VII Pro Duos,it's way more powerful,

Each Vega VII Pro Duo has two Radeon VII based GPUs,

and each Quadro RTX 8000 is based on the RTX TITAN.

So x4 RTX TITAN based GPUs will destroy the x4 Radeon VII based GPUs.

RTX Titans however lack NVlink so there will be performance loss, unlike Quadros and the Vega pro duos which have GPU interconnectors.

[Vishera]

2 minutes ago, williamcll said:

RTX Titans however lack NVlink so there will be performance loss, unlike Quadros and the Vega pro duos which have GPU interconnectors.

The RTX TITAN has NVLink:

 

[Uttamattamakin]

49 minutes ago, Vishera said:

I am pretty sure that that HP,Dell,and iBuyPower don't charge $10K+ for building computers and servers,Dell servers are cheap compared to the Mac Pro.

And if i build it myself it's free.

Aren't warranty and support free for a limited time?

That can be extended with money but that's optional.

And if i build it myself i am the support of myself.

??????

I am pretty sure the software won't cost more than $1000,which is nothing compared to the cost of the components,

And you can use free software,cheap software or go with Hackintosh.

I just proved it false.

Those are just Radeon VII based GPUs in dual GPU cards.

We all know that NVIDIA cards are way more powerful and expensive than AMD cards.

And you used 4 cards while the Mac Pro has only 2.

Free to you.   It cost that company something to provide the warranty and support.  It is a sort of limited insurance that companies price into the product. 

 

As  for "And if i build it myself i am the support of myself."  That just shows that this computer is not really for you.  It is as St Luke would say not targeted at you.    People in business are not trying to tinker with their computer a whole lot.  They want it to be unboxed, and fully working with all needed softwares in at most one working day.  

 

You did not prove false the idea that the cost of corporate support for these machines for at least a year and having the company around to call up and pay for service for 10 is worth the money.  You just said that you could provide all of that yourself.   That is not how businesses operate.  Even small one person businesses don't do their work on computers they build  (unless they are like LTT and have staff for that purpose.....something which has to be factored into the balance sheet and makes their computer cost comparable to prebuilt.  Then places like LTT or computer repair shops etc may care more about having total customization...)  

As a matter of fact ... I can disprove your assertion by reductio ad absurdum. 

I know a place where you can get everything you need to make a computer FOR FREE If you do it all by yourself. 

 

(Image courtesy of Wikimedia and free to use. )

 

All you have to do is grab a bucket dig up some sand.  Pick axe the minerals out of the rocks.  Refine all the matterials and you can customize the microchips wires, PCB everything.  Won't cost anything.  You just have to have the right tools.  Besides buying components someone else built is for scrubs.  

Ok maybe that's too far.  You could just buy the IC's yourself and solder together the computer yourself.  See what I mean?  The "I could build it myself argument" does not prove that a computer built for a certain purpose is "expensive".     It cost people their time to produce the raw matterials, to create the chips and IC's, to put them on PCBs... then to assemble them into a computer and insure/ensure that someone will be around to fix it when your project is due in the morning. 

[Uttamattamakin]

14 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The RTX TITAN has NVLink:

 

True... but these don't have as much VRam.   For very high performance task every ounce of performance can mean time gained or lost.  

When the staff working on the computer make say 75k per year that's 60 cents per minute (Not even trying to factor in benefits and such)    Every minute of their work is money lost.  Paying the equivalent of one year of salary for one person... to make better use of the time of a team of 5-10-100 people... is a net gain.  

You have to think about this kind of expense as a business expense.  You need to think of it like an investment. You need to think of it actuarially.... 

[Vishera]

3 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

True... but these don't have as much VRam.   For very high performance task every ounce of performance can mean time gained or lost.  

When the staff working on the computer make say 75k per year that's 60 cents per minute (Not even trying to factor in benefits and such)    Every minute of their work is money lost.  Paying the equivalent of one year of salary for one person... to make better use of the time of a team of 5-10-100 people... is a net gain.  

You have to think about this kind of expense as a business expense.  You need to think of it like an investment. You need to think of it actuarially.... 

I just said that the Quadro RTX 8000 is based on the RTX TITAN,I didn't recommend the RTX TITAN over the Quadro 8000 in any way shape or form for professional workloads.

[Vishera]

4 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

As  for "And if i build it myself i am the support of myself."  That just shows that this computer is not really for you.

Not necessarily,A freelance video editor that has the knowledge can do that.

10 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

People in business are not trying to tinker with their computer a whole lot.  They want it to be unboxed, and fully working with all needed softwares in at most one working day.  

That's what IT departments are for.

There are regular scheduled maintenance (in times the machines are the least used).

16 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

That is not how businesses operate.  Even small one person businesses don't do their work on computers they build  (unless they are like LTT and have staff for that purpose.....something which has to be factored into the balance sheet and makes their computer cost comparable to prebuilt.  Then places like LTT or computer repair shops etc may care more about having total customization...)  

Ahem...IT departments.

18 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

You did not prove false the idea that the cost of corporate support for these machines for at least a year and having the company around to call up and pay for service for 10 is worth the money. 

The manufacturers of the parts provide free warranty and support,

A lot of companies have IT departments that make sure the machines are good to go.

I don't see google looking for third party support while they have IT departments and support from the manufacturer of the component.

[Sauron]

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

My point is for computers:

Function determines expense.

So in your mind you need 78TB of storage and a second CPU to meet the function of a mac pro? You're not making any sense.

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

If you are a scientist or engineer looking do to high performance computing, or a TV or movie editor looking do do their work in a Linux/Unix environment there is never any  such a thing as "too much" power.

That's interesting to hear because it just so happens that I am an engineer and I primarily use Linux (when I can). In use cases where "there's no such thing as too much power" the mac pro is quite underwhelming considering it only supports a single CPU, doesn't use the often superior epyc platform and limits you to 1.5TB of ram. But in the real world, I would never buy a 50k computer for my work when I could offload it to a cloud platform that's vastly more cost effective and doesn't limit your scalability. That's not to say there's no use case for something like the top end mac pro, but it's undeniably overpriced and only suitable for a very small niche even among professionals. Low to midrange mac pros, I can see having a wider appeal - the 30k+ models, absolutely not.

 

Regardless, your original point was that the computer you listed was a direct comparison you could make to determine value, which is obviously and glaringly false. If you want to argue something else be my guest, but admit that the original comparison was absurd.

2 hours ago, williamcll said:

If you want that raw processing power here's a better build that costs less than your build. More CPU, GPU, VRAM and a faster overall SSD speed.

Still has 2 cpus while the mac pro only allows one... you're comparing a dual socket system with an extra $12k cpu to a single cpu system, plus the graphics cards here are significantly higher spec. And again, system76 is a boutique system builder - their costs are inherently inflated compared to bulk productions like the mac pro.

 

Dell is a more apt comparison here, and it does turn out their prices are similar for stuff like this - but those have always been niche products and I've never seen a youtuber sing the praises of a Dell 7920 and insist that it's not overpriced and that people should cut Dell some slack. I haven't seen threads comparing the 7920 to significantly faster thelios builds and adamantly defending its price in the name of nebulously defined "creators" and "engineers". There's no denying that the Mac Pro is being presented as a commodity product, no matter how many disclaimers you put at the end of the video saying that "by the way this is just for the enterprise and you should totally not buy it" - you're presenting it as something that is cool to have for an individual as their personal desktop, which is absurd, especially on channels dedicated to diy builds.

[williamcll]

ok, well I've found a site that could beat that price, though I might be missing a part or two: total price is 50293.57 for four quadros and that's without coupons.

[Vishera]

29 minutes ago, williamcll said:

ok, well I've found a site that could beat that price, though I might be missing a part or two: total price is 50293.57 for four quadros and that's without coupons.

Nice,the only thing you missed is a cooler,and changed the RTX 8000 to a RTX 6000...

The 2TB of RAM is a nice upgrade from the Mac Pro,

But i would replace the SSDs with this config:

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
Storage	Kingston KC2000 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$368.09 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$1817.87
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-12-21 13:30 EST-0500

 

[williamcll]

8 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Nice,the only thing you missed is a cooler,and changed the RTX 8000 to a RTX 6000...

The 2TB of RAM is a nice upgrade from the Mac Pro,

But i would replace the SSDs with this config:

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
Storage	Kingston KC2000 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive	$368.09 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
Storage	Western Digital Gold 14 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$483.26 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$1817.87
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-12-21 13:30 EST-0500

 

That M2 wouldn't really make use of the PCIe 4 lanes that EPYC offers.

That and four quadro 6000 is a closer config to the twin vega pro duo. 

[Vishera]

1 hour ago, williamcll said:

That M2 wouldn't really make use of the PCIe 4 lanes that EPYC offers.

That and four quadro 6000 is a closer config to the twin vega pro duo. 

About the M.2 for workloads that demands a lot of storage like video editing my configuration is better.

about Quadros you are right.